The weird stuff is the fun stuff, isn't it?

I wanted to mention a couple other things I dose. These are not for the plants, but for filter feeders and the tiny creatures at the bottom of the food chain. They are phytoplankton and sodium silicate. Sponges, feather dusters, tunicates and a wide variety of really small critters should enjoy the phytoplankton. Sodium silicate is for sponges. Silicate is the building block of sponges, and our aquariums provide very little of it. It's what calcium is to corals. If you have sponges and feed them, but they don't seem to grow, silicate is likely the missing piece of the puzzle.

So, in attempting to start up a new ecosystem, it makes sense to feed the bottom of it. It's kind a microcosm of the beginning of life on Earth.

This is a different product - not alive, not full of good stinky organics, but here's a snapshot of what a "mud" might contain that's different from the normal caco3 substrates we use in the hobby.
Miracle mud analysis
http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/faq...dent-analysis/
Things I think are interesting and good in it. Iron, manganese, a few other trace elements one would normally dose, and lots of silicon.
(I think it's weird that we obsess about matching precise NSW values in everything, except we insist zero silica is a must have.)

Cool! I always wondered about that stuff. Thanks taricha!

It would be interesting to see a comparison of all the 'muds' commercially available to aquarists. I'm sure that most, if not all, can be beneficial, especially for reef tank applications (refugia). Kinda pricey though. They may save some cash on dosing.

For most people, silica = diatoms, so they avoid it. If diatoms are the first algae to form in my tank, I'll take it as a good sign, that life is beginning. Like I did with the previous tank, I'll mix in some silica sand to help provide a baseline source of silicates, and dose sodium silicate to provide a surplus.

I wanted to elaborate a little more on some of the ideas, and methodologies for this aquarium.

First, let me say I wasn't a particularly good reef keeper. I came to the conclusion that I just wasn't up to it. It was too much like work to me. I wanted something beautiful to look at, but easier to do. So I tried something different-a fresh water planted tank. I had some success and I learned a lot about a whole, new side of aquarium keeping. I had a beautiful, planted display, and all was right in the world…

But, eventually I got the salt water itch again. This time, wouldn't it be cool to combine what I learned on both sides of the hobby? And do I really need to try to keep the most challenging creatures in the sea? How about something easier?

Algae is Mother Nature's way of telling us we need plants. Why argue? Why do we struggle against Nature? Wouldn't it be better to work WITH Nature? Using plants to balance with animals is an elegant solution to the biggest challenge of aquarium keeping-nutrient control. Algae scrubbers and refugiums are great, but why not put the plants right in the display? Why not make THEM the display? And couldn't we learn more about Nature if we used IT, rather than man-made devices?

What I wanted was just one big tank, chock full of nature, and low on external devices. I want to see if it is possible to assist nature in building an ecosystem in a box. I provide light, water movement, temperature control, food input and export. Nature does the rest. So, rather than buying a gizmo to solve a problem, I ask myself, how does Nature do it? How can I facilitate that natural process? How does one process influence another? How does Nature coordinate all these processes in functioning ecosystems?

So much to learn! I believe this naturalist approach to aquarium keeping has a lot to teach me.

What do you think? I'd love to hear from you!

Great stuff man, and as I've said, I love the theory and practice behind your tank. I'm sure to incorporate much into my final build. So far, with my smaller version of my system, I haven't had as much luck with the macros. My 20g long still has the black Gracilaria living, but not growing all that much. And in my 20g high, the two species of Ulva died off, except for one large leaf of Ulva lactuca that is still hanging on.

So, my plan for the future of the larger tank is to, like you, build from the ground up...get as much life into the sand bed as I can. The main difference is that I most likely won't grow seagrass, at least for now, until my tank is established. I may rethink that approach later. But, I want my local macros to thrive. Adding a dosing process of CO2 along with my fancy new light fixture should do the trick, along with some tweaking of nutrients via dosing. The heavy bioload should provide more than enough nitrogen.

In my current tanks, the lighting seems to be the missing link. I may try a simple plant grow light and see how that does.

Anyway, while here, I'll definitely be glued to this thread watching your progress. Not only is this thread of yours a resource for me, it's entertaining ;)

Thanks Kevin. So glad to hear this is entertaining!

I'm really looking forward to your final build! I've enjoyed following your journey. Your oyster reef is unique!

I'd like to offer some thoughts and advice.

I agree that your equipment has limited your success with macros. In the mean time, you've focused on the fish (and the rest of the ecosystem) with great success. Once you have all the tools you need, you'll have the opportunity to focus more on plants, if you like. It does require focus and priority. I think it will require somewhat of a shift in your thinking, putting plants at the top of your priorities. Luckily, you have sturdy fish and no corals to distract from the focus required to have success with plants.

I'm not suggesting you become a full-on plant nerd. I'm just saying your INITIAL focus should be to optimize conditions for the plants you want. When starting up the new build, ask yourself, "how do I optimize this tank for plant growth?" I really believe it takes this kind of mentality. And luckily, taking care of plants also helps the rest of the ecosystem.

Feel free to question this. After all, I may be wrong! I know I have much to learn.

Thank you for the advice Michael. I really appreciate it. The quote above is exactly what I'd like to do. That is why this thread is so important to me, because in just a few pages and posts, you've written the basic steps and explained it so clearly, and I thank you for that. The problem that I had with my current tank is that it was never supposed to be permanent, so pumping dollars into it isn't really an option.

My plan for my larger tank is to also build from the ground up, establish that food chain. I have the luxury of collecting my own live mud and sand right from the ecosystem that my fish are from and will take advantage of that to seed my substrate. I have the lighting that I think will be perfect for growing macros and even grasses if I go that route. The beauty of the temporary tank is that I can keep raising the fish while my ecosystem builds and matures in the other tank. I don't need the fish in it right away, so I can get the plants growing, etc. although I may need to dose ammonia unless I can get enough of an invertebrate bioload going. Plus, I'd want the tank fallow of fish anyway to reduce the chance of fish parasitism later on. I also need to make sure that I provide the trace elements needed for the macros to thrive.

I think the next piece of equipment that I might need to buy is the CO2 regulator. However, I got to thinking, since I'm on well water, it is possible that I already have high CO2 levels even after it goes through RO/DI filtration. I was reading how reefers on this forum feel the need to off gas CO2 in between the RO and DI stages. Since I want CO2, then I wouldn't have to do that, and maybe won't need the regulator? How would I know that? Is there a test for that?

And here is another question. Do you think that I should build my substrate in case I may add grasses? If I didn't add grasses, would the macros use those nutrients just as much? I guess that was my initial concern, not that I wouldn't want them, but collecting the species that I want might be difficult.

Do you grow your own phyto? If so what fertilizer do you use? Will you be trying rotifers too?

You are welcome! I agree, no need to spend cash on the temporary setup. Save it for the big show! As for CO2, that's up to you. You don't have to supplement it. Injecting CO2 just makes it easier to have success with plants. Without supplementation, plants grow slower, since they have to work harder to find available CO2 (or bicarbonates). I would think there is a way to test CO2 levels.

I think you are good to go, using local substrates. They probably have everything grasses and macros need. I think it gives you an edge, having a natural substrate that is already 'seasoned'. I have to buy the clean stuff, and add dirt and mud to season it.

Starting up the big tank, I'd advise you plant heavily, to outcompete algae and to see what does well for you. If you have a local grass, you might give it a try. Or maybe you have a favorite local macro. Research the needs of the plants you like and try to provide as ideal conditions as practical.

It really takes a committed effort to grow plants. So far, you have not had much luck with plants. What do you plan to do differently?

Then, the focus changes as your tank matures. First the focus is substrate, then plants, then other inverts like tunicates, then fish. Each stage supports the next, from the bottom up!

Rispa, I do not grow my own phytoplankton. Too lazy!

Florida Aqua Farms sells the stuff to do it:

floridaaquafarmsdotcom

The smaller tank was supposed to be a "holding tank" for newly collected fish that turned into a display tank. I set up the tank, cycled it, then dumped the fish in. Then, I started adding plants and other critters as I collected them. It was kind of like I was trying to get to the correct end but after I had already set up a fish only tank. Once I break this tank down and move everything to the final display, then I will set this tank up again for a species tank (maybe seahorses, pipefish, or sticklebacks), or maybe just use it as a grow out tank for fish fry...

For the big tank, I'll start with the plants, mud, live sand (to seed store bought sand that I have sitting in my basement). Once I'm happy with that, then I'll add more critters and fish. During my first attempt, my hope was that the high fish bioload would supply enough nutrients for the macros to thrive. Instead, cyano and hair algae ruled the roost, because they were introduced, perhaps? So, in my big tank, I will have to dose the nutrients. Also, I will introduce the macros to the tank immediately as the tank cycles. Maybe that will outcompete the nasties. Another difference, as I said before, is much better lighting. After the tank sits fallow and the food chain is established, then I'll add the fish last. Sounds almost like your plan! I wonder where I got those ideas :beer:

I've always wanted my blenny oyster reef tank. But, when I started this venture years ago, it evolved over time to a desire to set up an entire ecosystem.

Starting out with good lighting is good! That all sounds good. A fish-less cycle too.

Everyone gets an algae phase. It's inevitable. Figuring out how to favor your macros, while removing algae, will enable you to win the battle.

Minimalist is a good word to sum up my maintenance schedule. That makes me a “Laissez Fare” reefkeeper. Nature had billions of years to work out the details. I emulate success when I see it. I allow Dynamic Equilibrium to operate my ecosystem. Using aroggonite sandbed for passive calcium and trace mineral addittion when pH drops during lights out and in deep sandbeds. On the top end, carbon dioxide gas dissolves in water to form carbonate & bicarbonate alkalinity which combines with photosynthesis to form glucose which is nature “carbon pump”.

Michael, in an earlier post you said macro was 560/30/1. How did you come up with that carbon number? When I was considering selling Red Ogo as a gourmet food, I sent a sample to be analyzed by an agricultural lab. Analysis validated 30:1 of nitrogen to phosphorus. However, my chemistry is not sophisticated enough to deduce carbon from individual elements.

Carbon is a perfect example of Dynamic Equilibrium. As alkalinity is consummed during photosynthesis, carbon dioxide solubility feeds carbonate & bicarbonate alkalinity. Carbon dioxide solubility is a two way street, meaning that when lights are out, macro produces carbon dioxide and consumes oxygen. Nighttime oxygen concentration in water has probably killed more healthy fish than all other things combined.

Patrick, rather than track C-N-P ratios down in my notes, I just googled it. Here's one:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0b2...32639335d7.pdf

"Unicellular algae such as phytoplankton and benthic microalgae have an elemental ratio of carbon to nitrogen to phosphorus (C/N/P) of approximately 106:16:1, known as the Redfield ratio. Benthic plants, including benthic macroalgae and seagrass, have a significantly different and more variable C/N/P ratio, with a median of 550:30:1, herein called the Atkinson ratio."

Variable ratios is accurate. I was so surprised to see significant sulfur in Red Ogo, which in my opinion detracts from eating fresh. My ground water comes from a limestone formation, which was a shallow salt water inland sea. It is full of calcium, magnesium, & sulfur but void of N, P, Fe.

I recently purchased Reef Grade silicate for my sponges. When the drop of silicate concentrate hit the water, it immediately crystallized. I think that Edwards Plateau Aquifer is full of silicates. I will send water off to be tested.

Kevin,
I have so much enjoyed following your Chesapeake Bay biotheme. With respect to a planted lagoon, why not plumb the two systems together. Use a UV sterilizer from your fish tank into your planted tank, then gravity feed back to fish tank. Nutrients from fish tank grow macro and pods in macro lagoon but UV sterilizer prevents introduction of parasite. Live food from planted refugium feeds fish tank.

Let's not say "prevent" but it will help to minimize the risk if operated properly. Still, there are a lot of parasites that would be able to navigate through the "portal" to each tank. But if you have clean fish anyway, there should be no concern.

Let’s consider that the only portal is thru UV sterilizer. Then using a 40W LifeGuard UV sterilizer with a flow rate of 250 GPH, what marine parasite can survive that dwell time at that intensity.

Since we are addressing sterilization, how can desirable macro be considered clean of nuisance algae when transferring into tank.

Let us know how that turns out.
I had asked "Mr Tyree" if I needed to supplement my sponges.

"Once the cryptic zone is established, some additions may be necessary. We are still experimenting with the best ways to supplement sponges."

So down the road I will need to add some stuff and any info you get about the water test would be cataloged for the future. I'm on rain water, but if we dont get any rain soon its gonna mean I have to buy well water.

Cheers

Today I hope to finally get some things done. I had a setback or two, but I have a plan.

My jigsaw generates too much vibration, when trying to cut the overflow down. It came loose from the back wall, so I had to re-glue it. Today I'm going to try using a dremel with a cutting wheel. It will likely be slow, tedious work.

One step at a time!

It's like Ian Malcom said, "uh, life...finds a way." 😂

“Nature finds a way” is exactly my sentiments. It is for that reason I don’t bother with QT. I focus on reducing stress with stable systems and enhancing fish immune systems with live food.

Wow, a lot has happened in this thread, really interesting stuff guys. Michael, good luck with the overflow. What was the purpose for cutting it down? Are you reducing the size, lowering the water level of the tank, or trying to make it more effective?

Thank you Patrick. Right now, the tanks are kept in separate rooms, far apart,and space is an issue. The 20g high is a holding tank (QT) for inverts and macros now, and is fishless. My plan to is to rid any invert of macro that I collect and render it free from fish parasites by keeping it fish free for 6 weeks and then add them into the tank, hence the need for better lighting.

But, once I set up my big tank, that will free up the 20g long fish tank for me to convert it to a stickleback tank, and that sounds like it would be a great set up since young sticklebacks are pod hunting machine. Thanks for the idea!

Hey Michael, the more that I think about it, your suggestion about me using a CO2 reactor makes much more sense. Even if well water has elevated CO2 levels, I suspect that it will off gas fairly quickly and stabilize, just that it would happen in my tank after each water change rather than a post RO off gassing tank. In addition, I'd need a lot of water changes to achieve the Atikinson ratio that you mention above. I'd be better off investing in the equipment. Thanks again for the suggestion way back in your other thread.

Kevin, I wanted to lower the water level and I wanted to lower the overflow to match, so water could flow in and out. It works well as an in tank refugium, as well as a good place to put high light loving macros.

I'm rooting for your success with plants! I'm sold on CO2 for sure. Plants are challenging. They need a lot of Carbon. 550-30-1.

Don’t buy just any well water! I will give you some of my well water with TDS > 1000 ppm.

Update. I got a little bit done today. I got the overflow/refugium and the fake wall covering it, cut down, to go with the lowered water level in the tank. But it came loose again. I decided that since it's not functioning as an overflow, I don't need it. I just installed the fake wall cover. Without it in there, there's more room for plants, etc.

Next, I reworked the mounting setup for the fake mangrove root/powerhead. I needed to lower it too, to accommodate the lower water level. I also attempted to repair the cracked root. We'll see how it looks tomorrow. The fake root is showing its age. I think I can keep it together but it'll be close. If it doesn't fall apart I'm going to repaint it to look more wood-like.

It's good to get some of the system fixes done. Not as sexy as the living elements but important. Sorry this is going so slowly. I'll keep plugging along, doing the dull stuff, until I get to the fun stuff.

Looking ahead, I wonder how the new version will differ from the original. Before, I was walking into an unknown situation. Now I have those four years of experience to build on. It will be interesting to see how it affects my choices.

Great art takes time to complete, and those that appreciate great art are patiently looking forward to the unveiling ;)

I am glad that behind the scenes stuff is progressing. Its easy to get stalled on those chores but like you said, it needs done to move on to the good stuff.

Thanks Kevin and Dawn! It's challenging to make time, this time of year, for some reason. But things are progressing.

In the meantime it's interesting to discuss methods, philosophies, etc.

There's still not a lot of good info on marine planted tanks. They do require a shift in thinking, compared to reef tanks, or even fish only tanks. Dispensing with artificial filtration flies in the face of accepted conventions. But when your main subject matter does the filtration for you, why bother? The trick is to understand how much Nature can do in our man-made systems, and what we have to do, to assist. For example, I've found that despite populating the tank with numerous detrivores and filter feeders, detritus still accumulates. This happens in our closed systems, and also in seagrass meadows. Since it is a display, some tidying up is called for, so I occasionally remove some detritus.

The goal for me is to let Nature do most of the work, so I can stretch out on the couch and watch.

Hey! Thanks to everyone reading! Any Lurky Lous? I'd love to hear from you. Got a comment? A question? I really appreciate my regulars' posts, but it would also be nice to hear from less regular posters. There's so much to talk about!

This ecosystem-in-a-box thing is pretty cool, right? Or do you think I'm doomed to fail? Who puts dirt in their aquarium!? Talk to me…

Following along. No dirt in my aquarium. Maybe some potting soil fragments from the white worms I feed my fish. Im finding the macro in the tank is pretty kewl. Im learning how the different types spread. Both my brushes and fans have sprouted new stalks from the sand bed. Also I noticed the new sprouts are more resistant to the cyano wanting to cover them. Maybe a chemical thing? The cyano is on its last legs as of late. It only seems to be on the fragile red grape macro now.
Keep us posted, we all want to know how to make our chunks of ocean more of a natural eco-system.

Thanks lapin! I've been following your (excellent) build as well. Congrats to coming out of cyano city. I like the way brushes and fans spread like that. I bet it looks cool! I've struggled with red grapes. I've still got a little plant, so I'm hoping to figure it out.

I of course will continue to prattle on. I want to learn how to combine natural processes to encourage a functioning ecosystem to form, in an aquarium. The better it functions, the less work for me.

Looking forward to seeing some photos or virtual renditions of the plan. :0)

Hmm…not much to show of the plan. Maybe you are referring to showing my progress on the system changes/fixes? Not much to show there, either. What I have done isn't particularly pretty or interesting, in my opinion. I admit I don't get very excited about the system stuff. To me it's just the hurdles I have to clear to get to the fun stuff.

I can list what I've done and what I plan to do.

Done:
Relocated metal halide light fixture higher up in the cabinet
Lowered overflow/refugium
Fashioned bracket to lower fake mangrove root/powerhead

To Do:
Level floor under the tank. I have put a floor jack under the house, and in the process of gradually raising the low spot in the floor.
Repair and repaint fake root.
Install wave box.
Re-foam fake wall at the top to create some overhang.
Install fake wall on left end to hide wave box and flow-through wall.
Polish acrylic front and right end panel of aquarium. This should help with photos.
Replace inferior canister filter with Fluval 306 model. I picked this up on sale months ago.
Plumb in UV sterilizer. Like my strategy with activated carbon, I will only run it when needed. It seemed to be the best thing I did to get rid of dinoflagellates.
Assemble and install mesh top to prevent jumpers.

That's about it. McPuff, I will photograph things that are interesting as I progress.

Ha ha! No worries. Looking forward to more updates. :0)

Michael, that is quite a to do list, but it sounds like the end result will be awesome especially with the added current. Your macros and grasses will flow gracefully.

I stopped using cartridges in my filter and have since added a sponge to filter out some of the detritus. About once a month, I remove it and clean out the filter, and wash out the sponge under fresh water. I figure that my tank has plenty of bacteria to make up for it. My tank is so "dirty" that it always looks like it's snowing in there LOL. But, my barnacles, tunicates and live mussels seem to love it.

Thanks McPuff! Me too!

Thanks Kevin! I'm pretty excited about the wave box. Can't wait to see it working!

I like your marine snow. It looks very natural.

What is the brand and model of your wave box again?

I feel the same way with my Maxspect Gyre...can't wait to see what it will do in my big tank. I'm actually making progress in my other build that is holding up my big tank build. Check out my faux slate rock wall, painted with Drylok (first coat). Next step, paint with colors to resemble local cliffs along my river, and then install the three sections into my 75g tank. This is the middle section:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psxhlwntel.jpg

Wow, that looks like the real deal! Kudos to you for getting such an authentic look.

I got the smaller wave box by Tunze, the 6208 Comline Wavebox. I've had really good luck with Tunze. Their stuff just runs and runs, for years.

I've seen those gyre pumps and they're very impressive! Tons of flow.

Your fake rock is some of the best I've seen! Superb! I remember we talked about keeping it from floating. You resolved that issue, didn't you? Buoyancy is a very strong force to contend with, especially with that much foam. I was surprised how much! I can't wait to see the finished product!

I worked on my fake root yesterday. I'm getting it sanded down to paint. One of the roots has several cracks in it. My repairs didn't work, so I'll try something else. I had to shorten all the roots to accommodate the lower placement. Hopefully they won't look too stubby!

Oh, here's a virtual rendition of my fake root bracket mod. The piece at the top right allows me to move the C-clamp up, lowering the fake root/powerhead mount. The super sophisticated software makes it look I drew it with a pencil…

http://reefcentral.com/forums/pictur...ictureid=79779

Thank you Dawn and Michael. Yeah, the flotation issue worries me a tiny bit, but, the entire thing fits tightly in the tank especially when all three sections are in there. I'm going to use a ton of silicone to hold it in place. Inside each section, there are a bunch of river stones to help weigh it down.

Michael, I checked out your wave box on BRS, looks nice, and looks like the reviews are good too. It should really give your tank that nice shoreline look.

I like your bracket idea. I hope you can get the look of your root the way you want. That is a really cool feature in your tank. Are you using epoxy to fix seal up the cracks of the root? What type of repair did you try that didn't work?

I have an alternative reason for asking, LOL. I had an overhang section on my oyster reef fall last night...so I'll either try and use glue that works underwater to fix it or maybe I'll pull it out and fix it. I'd rather not do the latter because I don't want to kill the life that has grown on them the past year (tunicates, etc.). Have you tried gluing stuff underwater? Folks on here recommend super glue or a super glue/epoxy/superglue sandwich for gluing rock work underwater.

I guess that you don't need to worry about that since you can pull your root out. Also, I have an interest in how it works out because of my plan to build roots for my 75g FW tank.


Crackin' me up man!

Sounds good, Kevin!

I'm hoping the wave box gives me a good to and fro wave action. With a bunch of plants in there, it should look pretty cool!

I used the epoxy/putty stuff they sell at fish stores. It held until I was sanding it down/handling it. For my next attempt, I'm going with superglue. Then I'll seal it with silicone cement, after I paint it. The epoxy putty might work for your oyster reef repair.

Good to hear you're doing some fake roots too. That should look great! I've seen a ton of cool roots and stuff on Pinterest. Very inspiring.

I do design work everyday on my computer. I'm like the carpenter that never works on his own house!

Kevin, the glue/epoxy/glue sandwich works VERY well and I'd highly suggest you try this method. If you do it right (i.e., spread the epoxy into crevices, etc.) then the superglue will provide the temporary fix and the cured epoxy will create a very strong bond. The combo can be quite difficult to remove. There is a chunk of epoxy on my overflow box that I am too scared to remove for fear of cracking the acrylic. Maybe I didn't think that one through enough... :0)

The absolute strongest method you can use is concrete (e-Marco 400) but this is really only an option if you're including real rock. I have found that it's extremely difficult to separate rocks bound with e-Marco. In fact, the rock will break before the bond itself.

Ha! I'm the same way. :beer: I'm in the finance field, so the last thing that I want to do every day after work is to come home and balance my bank account on the computer! :headwally:

Thank you McPuff!

I'm still here following along. I ditched my florida pets mud and replaced with the live plants sand. My burrowing bristle stars are not nearly as happy as they can't really burrow under it very well, and my cyano problems have LESSENED but not totally.

I also replaced the ulva with calupera. Its growing great.

I really loved the mud but people were defintely right about it being for very specific use cases. I think a deeeeeep bed of it with slow flow is best. Mine had bits of black rotting tree and all sorts of stinky goo in it. Sadly my system was too small and not designed to benefit properly and the nitrates it brought it were insane.

I can't wait to see your completely finished system! Make sure you get all sorts of detailed up close shots of mud critters for me. :D :D

Thanks mndfreeze. I look forward to getting it up and running as well. I do plan to polish the acrylic, so I should be able to get good shots of 'the cast of thousands'.

Your plan seems to be coming together, cannot wait to see it finished.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk

Thanks SaltySully! Plan's great. Execution slow.

I'm starting to picture it in my mind. A lush seagrass meadow spreads over three quarters of the substrate. A few, very carefully selected macros provide additional color and texture. It all moves hypnotically in the back and forth wave action…