m2434,

You're concerns are also noted in this thread I started before this current thread. ;)

Chemical Control of algae?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1596521


From this thread, a quote from Randy regarding AlgaeFix:

"I would not use Algaefix in a reef tank. It is a potent biocide and can potentially kill other inverts. API specifically says to not use it in the presence of crustaceans,

According to the MSDS, and after a little redjusting for their incorrect namming, Algaefix is 4.5 weight percent of a cationic polymer

Poly[oxy-1,2-ethanediyl(dimethyliminio)-1,2-ethanediyl(dimethyliminio)-1,2-ethanediyl chloride (1:2)]

more commonly known as

Polyquaternium 42

and these other common names:

Armoblen NPX; BL 2142; Bualta; Bubond 60; Bulab 6002; Busan 1507; Busan 77; KA 1700; MBC 115; Polixetonium chloride; Poly[oxyethylene(dimethylamino)ethylene(dimethylamino)ethylene dichloride]; Polyquaternium 42; TB 66; WSCP


For example:

A potential biocide for control of the golden mussel, Limnoperna fortunei. Darrigran, Gustavo A.; Colautti, Dario C.; Maronas, Miriam E. Division Zoologia Invertebrados, Facultad Ciencias Naturales y Museo, La Plata, Argent. Journal of Freshwater Ecology (2007), 22(2), 359-360.

Abstract

We assessed to response of larvae of the golden mussel (Limnoperna fortunei) to different concns. of a quaternary ammonium polymer (Bulab 6002) in order to est. its effectiveness in controlling this invasive mussel. Mussels were collected along the coast of the Rio de la Plata, Argentina, and were tested in two lab. trials. The estd. median lethal concn. for these 24-h exposures were 9.6 mg/L and 4,6 mg/L, indicating that this biocide may be suitable as a control agent for this mussel.



__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley
Club 65535

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


The label for AlgaeFix Marine states that it is safe for crustaceans, however the freshwater version has cautions as Randy stated above.

That said, as a last resort, I still would recommend the use of AlgaeFix Marine based on its track record when used per the label from this thread. IMHO there are more tank disasters when using antibiotics to control cyano. AlgaeFix will not control all types of algae either. So AF is not a sure fire cure for all hobbyists. :)

Certainly AlgaeFix Marine's active ingredient is used as a biocide at higher concentrations and there is not a lot of room for error. Hence my recommendation to carefully follow the labeled directions.

Ah, okay I gotcha now :thumbsup: Sorry, I didn't read all 1675 replies :)
I've noticed it seems to be gaining popularity lately, especially among newbies, which led me to this thread. I was shocked by my first skim through, but I see what your saying now.

Certainly I think there are cases, such as if corals are starting to get overgrown by turf algae or something, where I might risk it, but still very cautiously. Based on the data though, I'd be concerned about using it liberally, esspecially in less dire situations, where other methods are sufficient.

Good points. ;)

From what I have gathered up from the Chemistry Forum over a period of time my normal recommendations for algae control is as follows:

There are a lot of hobbyists in your same position. Reducing your nitrate and phosphate levels to a zero reading will help in getting rid of many type of algae and/or cyanobacterial pests. IME, reducing nitrate and phosphate levels too low can kill or cause problems for many types of soft coral. Running GAC & GFO will all help in reducing the growth of these type of pests. In many cases they will not eradicate the pest even when phosphate and nitrate are extemely low. Vinegar and/or Vodka dosing will help reduce the nitrate and phosphate levels also, but will not necessarily eradicate the pest either.

A common problem is being able to identify your pest to a category correctly: true algae, cyano, dino, bacteria & other assorted pests that look similar. In many cases a micro look at your pest is best to properly ID it to one of these categories.

IMHO, if you are faced with an algal type pest problem, it is best to implement an algae pest control program strategy:


1) Wet skimming with a good quality skimmer. Clean your skimmer cup at least once per week.

2) Reduce your nitrates and phosphates to a zero reading using the hobby grade test kits. See Randy's articles regarding this:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm

3) Proper lighting. I find that the higher wavelength bulbs are less conducive to algae growth. I now run 20,000 K bulbs from using 10,000 K bulbs.

4) Proper day length is a good thing also. I would not run your lights for more than 12 hrs total. Keep in mind that light entering from a window nearby is added to this figure.

5) Running GAC is a good practice in my book. It will help reduce the total dissolved organic carbons in your tank water and this is a food source.

6) Proper 30% per month total water changes will help export the DOC as well as some of the pests in the water column. It will help maintain the micro-nutrients as well.

7) Physical removal of the pest by hand, scrubbing and siphoning is important as well. If the amount of pest in your aquarium is overwhelming, perhaps dealing with one section at a time is a better idea.

8) Proper water circulation in your tank to prevent dead zones. When dealing with cyanobacteria pests increasing the flow where it grows seems to help.

9) Use RODI water for all top-off, salt mixing, additive mixes... etc.

10) Dosing iron may have benefits for macro-algae, but if you are experiencing algae pest problems than I would stop dosing it as it can add to the problem in many cases.

11) If you are dosing other supplements such as vitamins, amino acids, or others that contain a mix of supplements other than the basic alk., calcium and magnesium, I would stop these until you gain control of your pest. This includes many of the store bought products with unknown ingredients. Dosing Vodka or sugar to reduce your nitrates and phosphates would be an exception in my opinion.

12) Proper feeding habits. This can be the number one problem when trying to reduce your nitrate and phosphate levels. Use low phosphate fish foods.

13) IMHO, lighted refugiums may be a problem when trying to deal with an algae type pest problem. They are wonderful when it comes to reducing nitrates and phosphates. However, the light over most refugiums is conducive to the microalgae type pests. If the refugium becomes infested with a microalgae pest, I would clean it throughly of all pests as best as possible, remove the macro and turn off the lights until you gain control of your pest. Re-using the same macroalgae later may serve as a source for re-infestation of your pest.

14) Adding fish and other creatures that will eat your algae pest will help.

15) Running a diatom filter which has been suggested by Boomer, makes a lot of sense to me. It will help remove a lot of organic material in your water column.

16) For some additional thoughts regarding switching an algae based system to a bacterial based system see this thread:
(Using a carbon source with appropriate bacterial dosing may possibly help to push your system to where you want it although this is controversial.)

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1781320

17) There are other items that can be added to this list if others care too share and some of the items listed may be disputed.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _______


If after you have tried all these procedures and you are still loosing the battle, I would recommend that you initiate the use of AlgaeFix Marine based on the reports I have seen in this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1595003

I hate to see anyone give up on this hobby due to algae type pest problems.

Great info Cliff; I agree 100% when put that way :)

Thanks. ;)

After putting this in our tank water, is their any risk to humans? I.E reaching in the tank getting this on our skin, the bottle references skin contact on the back...I know i am being paranoid, but i don't like putting my hands in the tank without gloves on because of the concentrations of who knows what is in the tank water, however to do delicate tasks i frequently have no choice but to not use gloves.:headwally:

AlgaeFix breaks down in our tanks quickly, within 24 hrs. For those concerned, I would wait 24 hrs after any application before you place your hands in the water. Personally, I'm not concerned about it at least at the concentrations we are talking about. ;)

When handling the concentrate, using gloves will help to prevent skin contact in the concentrated form.

FWIW, I would be more concerned about some of the toxins produced by our coral, algae, dinos....etc in our tanks. ;)

Thanks for the reply...:beer:
I am on day 2 of AF treatment,(dosed last night, waiting on day 3), due to $$$ problems my 220 has been setup for a year without a skimmer(upgraded from a 72g Bow), even with large water changes algae continues to grow. Thankfully I found a used ATB 840 so now I have a skimmer again. With a little saving I will have my reactors for carbon,GFO and mabey bio-pellets. Hopefully this will put a dent in the algae growth.

You're welcome. ;)

Let us know how it works out.

It usually takes around 6-7 doses to see control if AF works on your species of algae. :)

can anyone help me with this one..

after using af marine..the hair cleaned up but this is on the sand bed...

photo is not great..sorry hard to get good detail on it...

only on the sand bed and in areas that are not extremely bright...

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...l1/photo-8.jpg

Can't say for sure what it is from your photo.

If it is growing only on the sand bed, I would start with cleaning the sand bed, as long as it is not deeper than say 3". This pest could be grabbing nutrients dropped down into your sand bed. ;)

I would recommend a regular maintenance procedure of your sand bed after the initial cleaning at water change time. In some cases cleaning the sand bed can drive nutrients up if you have not regularly maintained it. ;)

I would keep this organism out of your tank on a regular basis until it disappears, by siphoning. The more often the better IMHO. :)

Quick update. After probably 10-12 weeks of AFM use, I discontinued. I found that all my corals (mostly softies and zoos with a few LPS) didn't love it that much. There were no deaths but definitely deminished polyp extension, which has completely reversed since discontinuing. The pest algae I am still fighting is definitely stunted but it did not die back in any way. Perhaps it's outside the control of this product. Interstingly, even after 5 weeks of non use, I still get no green hazing on my glass. I think this product is good for it's intended pupose but has species control limitations. I also think that my corals truly suffered no permanent detriment.

kharmaguru,

I agree with your findings as well. AF worked for one problem specie of algae I had but not another (I believe was Derbesia) had no effect after extended AF use. AF will not kill all algae species. From what I can tell from the posts in this thread, if AF does not control your pest say within 10 doses I would discontinue its use. Long term effects of AF use killed my Chaeto. :(

One algae species that may be common in reef tanks is Cladophora. There are large reef areas around Hawaii and in the Mediterranean that are covered by it & has spread throughout the world. It also will overun coral. The AlgaeFix Marine label says it will control the Cladophora.

Cladophora sericea
http://www2.bishopmuseum.org/algae/i...a_sericea2.jpg

Cellular structure
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/...ladophora2.jpg

http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/gradstu...7-01-13-js.gif

I tried AF for Dino and it works well !
It took me 2 doses only (every 3 days) in addition to Ph increasment to 8.5 level - to see how Dino take apart... :thumbsup:

Now I am dosing once in a week just to keep the Dino "leftovers" from recovering.

Verti,

This is interesting. ;)

You don't by chance still have a bit of this pest you can take pictures of?

Perhaps if others try AF on dinos this will help confirm your results. :)

Hi Cliff,
There are some "leftovers" from this pest, but I am not sure how it will came out when photo (its shape is now much more like mulm or mocus than an algea or Dino. I assume this is how it looks like when dying).
Anyway, I will try to photo it.

BTW,
I was told that Dino is sensitive to Ph 8.5 and up, so I can't tell exactlly what helped to destory Dino in my reef - PH level or AF.

Yes, it's hard to determine what exactly killed your dino pest. If the pest is just reduced to a dead mass, pics likely won't help. ;)

It's good to hear you're finally beating this pest. :)

HighlandReefer

I have fear why is carcinogenic

i bought the product and I have not used

What recommendations can you give me?

Especially for the hands, when i do maintenance on the tank

Thanks

Best Regards

AlgaeFix Marine when used properly in a reef tank should have very little risk. The active ingredient in AlgaeFix Marine is also used as a biocide at much greater concentrations in applications such as boilers and is used in some foods to help prevent bacterial growth. The major concern is in situations where it is used at much higher concentrations and in food materials. The risks in these situations are of concern. In a reef tank the concentration of the active ingedient is very low. When using the concentrate in the bottle which has much higher concentrations of the active ingredient, one should follow the label and use gloves and eye protection, but once dissolved in the tank water there really should be no problems.

Keep in mind all substances we use have some toxicity. Many of the foods we eat, particularly vegetibles contain carcenogens as well. You would be surprised how many carcinogens you eat daily. Have you read the label on the gas tank when you pump your gas. Gasoline is very toxic and a known carcinogen, yet people use it daily without concerns, primarily due to lack of alternatives. I'm not trying to reduce concerns regarding the chemicals we use. They all should be respected and used acording to the labels. I'm just trying to provide a perspective here. The medicines we take, all have side effects of some sort, especially if the are properly regulated by the FDA. Those botanicals that people take which are not approved by FDA contain some very toxic substances in many cases & people feel since they are natural there is no problem. Many have unknown ingredients in them. ;)

This article may be of interest regarding the biocides including AlgaeFix:

EPIDEMIOLOGY / TOXICOLOGY
PLENARY SESSION

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...Ilfm4xSEDdwpaA

From it:

"DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSIONS
Industrial biocides are toxic by design. Unlike
other, equally toxic industrial chemicals (strong
acids, caustic, solvents, etc.) their primary value
depends on their ability to kill microbes without
adversely affecting other coolant per-formance
properties. The benefits derived from biocide use
must be balanced against the economic and health
impacts.
Although there is general consensus regarding
the link between microbial contamination and
product rancidity(5) the same is not true regarding
the role of metalworking fluid microbes and
employee health.(6) However, a growing body of
data suggest that uncontrolled microbial growth
may, in fact, present a significant health risk.(7,8)
Considering then the economic and potential
health risks associated with uncontrolled microbial
contamination, one can make a strong argument
that the benefits, associated with biocide use, outweigh
the risks. The caveat here is using
appropriate products in appropriate applications.
Toxicological dose responses typically are not
linear. That is, if a chemical’s LD50 = 1,000
mg/kg, it does not necessarily follow that 250
mg/kg will kill 25-percent of the test population.
This concept is important to understand. Many
industrial biocide active ingredients are also used
routinely as preservatives in personal care
products, food packaging materials and other
“intimate contact” applications. In these products
the potential for biocide ingestion and absorption
is much greater than it is through incidental contact
with metalworking fluids. Consequently, the risk
lies in misuse rather than incidental exposure due
to biocide use in accordance with manufacturer’s
instructions.
The toxicological data provide one basis for
matching products with intended applications; and
should be considered in context with solubility,
volatility, half-life, efficacy and treatment cost
data. Skin sensitizing products may be used riskfree,
if they are built into metalworking fluid
concentrates, eliminating the possibility of direct
contact at the plant. Volatile products are best
suited for use in low-mist, low heat applications.
Broad category monikers, such as HCHOcondensate
biocide are virtually meaningless.
Manufacturing personnel responsible for coolant
formulation or coolant system maintenance should
be wary of claims that either promote or condemn
biocide groups, based on toxicological properties.
As with all industrial products the risk associated
with biocides lies mostly in product abuse, not use."

Cliff,
In your list of 17 algae control methods I noticed Algaefix as a last resort but no mention of a algae turf scrubber. In your opinion is an ATS potentially a tool to fight back display algae outbreaks (short or long term problems)?

Yes an algae turf scrubber can be added to the list since it does do a fine job of reducing nitrate and phosphate. The only potential problem I see with an ATS would be if pest algae are growing in it, which could possible serve as a source for re-infestation. The same holds true if one uses a refugium and it becomes pest infested. ;)

Thanks for the clarification