Need help with ich
 

Specs: 180g tank/ 55g refugium

Livestock: 200lbs liverock, 2in deep sandbed, simply corals, lionfish, porcupine puffer, niger trigger, queen angel, powder blue tang, 2 yellow tang, black/white butterfly, mandarin, 2 o-clowns, 4 cardinals, 2 damsels, 3 urchins, sally crab, cuccumber, snails, crabs

Parameters are all good and I do not add anything

Bough the tank from a individual a month ago. Set it up and took the stuff from my 75g and put it in here along with the fish and liverock he had. I got the porcupine puffer in the mail the same day I got the tank setup and everything transferred so everything went in a once. About 2 weeks ago I noticed the puffer was getting white spots which I figured was ich. Now the puffer has alot of white spots and it is getting on other fish like the powder blue and the butterfly. All the fish still eat very good and the past week I have been soaking the food in fresh cut up garlic/water then soaking it in selcon. Iv tried to feed twice a day for the past week and I seem to be losing since its spreading. Problem is I have to big of a tank and to many fish to just up and put them in a QT. Im also leaving for vacation in a couple days and only have someone coming over to feed them. I did a 30 gallon water change today so the tank would be okay for me to leave and only water would need to be added from evaporation. So I need some advice, do I just keep feeding them a couple times a day soaking the food in garlic and selcon?

it has not been shown scientifically that garlic does anything to ich. actually i'm pretty sure it does nothing. selcon will strengthen fish's immune system but only up to a certain point. everytime ich reproduces, each parent releases hundreds of offsprings so infestations get worse everytime. if it's spreading like you indicated, your fish's immune systems are not enough to fight off ich, and will go on a downward spiral very fast if treatment is not applied.

if you don't have quarantine tanks big enough to house all the fish, either get more quarantine tanks or perform hyposalinity in the DT. note that copper is the other treatment that works on ich, but i do not recommend using copper on puffers as they are very sensitive to copper.

if you are leaving in a couple of days, i don't think there's really not much you can do right now. treatments require you to be present the whole time, especially the beginning, since you need to monitor the fish closely.

That's what I figured. Problem is wouldnt I need to take out all my liverock, corals, snails, and crabs, put them in another tank with light to keep them alive and then do hypo? And does liverock and corals carry ich or is it just the fish?

I agree with Sandwi54; garlic & vitamins don't cure ich. A major myth. I also agree that the puffer needs hypo (or tank-transfer) and not copper. These are the only 3 ways to get rid of ich.
LR, corals, and anything wet can carry ich in different stages of its life cycle. Only fish can host, and continue the life-cycle. I'd read all the ich stickies at the top of the disease section---its vital info for anyone. The only way to get rid of ich is to separate fish from everything else; treat the fish, and let the non-fish tank stay fishless for (IMO) 10 weeks. When you get this done, a real PIA, then use a QT on all new livestock and avoid this problem in the future.

Don't be tempted by all the ''reef-safe'' ich cures, there aren't any. Good luck with your fish sitter, unfortunately there is a very good chance you will lose fish while you're gone. Using garlic & Selcon short-term really doesn't matter (IMO); the benefits to the fish's immune system come from long-term use. I've learned to keep things as simple as possible for fish-sitters. Be sure he knows how to do a regular inventory of your fish and knows how to remove any fish that might die. Sometimes, ich can stay relatively harmless for quite a while, other times it can rapidly wipe out a tank full of fish. research and get some good advice on hypo; its usually very effective, but not as simple as it sounds. A good, well calibrated refractometer is a must, as attention to detail. An ATO is strongly suggested.

LR/corals/inverts can carry Ich "hitchhikers" but if you remove all the fish these hitchhikers will starve to death because they need a fish "host" to feed on. However, it can take up to 9 weeks for this to happen. So, relocate all your corals, snails, crabs, etc. to a separate tank and keep them there for 9 weeks if you're going to do hypo in the DT. Whether or not you need to remove the LR is a subject for debate. According to the sticky (see link below) hypo should be done "in a completely bare tank, no substrate, no rock". However, I've read some opinions on here that hypo will kill all of the Ich in the LR/sand anyway but not all of the bacteria. Personally, I would think any "embedded Ich" would not be able to survive hypo for too long. But I also question how long the bacteria can live under the same conditions.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1991470

I'm sure not a real authority on hypo; but I agree with your concern about the LR. Even if the friendly bacteria can survive hypo, there is enough other life in mature LR that can't; possibly creating an ammonia problem. By "embedded Ich"; I assume you mean embedded in the substrate, LR, etc. It will be subject to the same SG and should explode too. But, could an ich cyst find its way deep into a spot in the LR and survive on the water there? Anaerobic bacteria needs low flow, maybe there are pockets of LR that can sustain a higher SG and allow the emerging theronts to survive? (I'll admit to showing my parasite paranoia, not a bad thing). I've never seen this possibility discussed and all it takes is one theront to continue the plague. Whatever the case, LR, substrate & hypo is a bad idea, IMO.

Yeah, after thinking about it some more and reading your post, I agree... I would take ALL the LR & sand out before doing hypo. Why chance it?

To the OP: I don't envy you, you've got a real nightmare on your hands. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but (if possible) I would postpone my vacation to deal with this. How long are you going to be gone anyway? A few days might be OK... but a week or two? It sounds like you have a lot of nice fish that need help sooner rather than later. Also, I would seriously consider getting another tank and doing hypo in there before I tore up my DT. If you took all the fish out and left the DT fallow (fishless) for 9-10 weeks, that would kill all of the Ich in there while leaving all your corals/inverts intact. But I would not start hypo in either the DT or a QT, and then go on vacation. You will have to be constantly monitoring ammonia, the SG, doing WCs, etc. Man, I feel for you, this sucks...

^^^ as b0bab0ey said... if possible you should postpone the vacation for 2 weeks. the first 2 weeks of ich treatment is a real nightmare... and you gotta be there the whole time.

I leave tomorrow night/sat morning and im letting someone feed them and I will take care of it when I get back. Sucks but I can postpone the trip bc its business related. I thank everyone for the help and im hoping that everything lives by next weekend when I get back and can take everything out and do hypo

Very good advice I copied from someone.

There are some that like to believe that ich can totally be eliminated via prolonged treatment but it seems that this isn't the case. No matter how long you treat the fish, the ich can still remain as a latent infection in the fish's gills. I equate the ich infection to Herpes Simplex 1 in humans. 80-90% of the population has a permanent latent HSV 1 infection but the vast majority have no symptoms except when they are stressed or sick (compromising their immune system) which results in a cold sore.

The main goal in a marine aquarium is to have a low stress environment for each fish (correct tank size, compatible tank mates, etc) to avoid stressing the fish and lowering their immune system.

The best two way I've found to "treat" ich in a reef aquarium:

1. Extra feeding. Feeding extra times per day reduces the amount of stress on the fish which helps the fish fight the infection. Using garlic enhanced foods theoretically raises the fish's immune system. This is based on basic science and clinical research that garlic has some immune system enhancing properties but I doubt the effect of garlic in treating marine ich has been studied.

2. Using a powerful UV sterilizer with a low flow rate. It's important to make sure the ich load (protozoans per ml of water) is kept low. If the ich load in the tank is increased, this will worsen the infection in sick fish and non stressed fish in the tank can also develop an ich infection since their normal immune systems cannot deal with the large amount of ich they are encountering. The lifeform of ich in the water column is resistant to UV (several times more resistant than algae). For example a 25w UV sterilizer would have to be run at 110-184 gph to be effective (much slower than what most people run their UV sterilizers at). http://www.suburbanreef.com/classic-...terilizer.html

IMO, this is very inaccurate. it should be the goal to eliminate ich, not manage it. Eliminating ich is done regularly by people on this forum; often after they've learned that ich never has to be a problem if a QT is always used. UV will help a little with ich, but can't possibly eliminate it. Garlic and diet may help with the fish's immune system....until a major stressor comes along.
Do you have a source for the info in your 1st paragraph? It sure didn't come from any author I've ever read and sounds like it came from someone who just didn't want to go through the effort required. I'd bet the 'author" of this info is no longer in the hobby. IMO, this is very poor info to give to anyone; much less a newcomer. Managing ich, rather than eliminating it is just a temporary fix that won't last and (IMO) is a big part of the high turnover rate in the hobby.

Well I'm only going to be away till next Friday so until then they will be fed everyday every and when I return I'm going to take all the liverock, sand, uncertain, urchins out of the tank for 8 weeks and do hull in the big tank with all the fish. Now a few questions: should I take the sand out? It's old anyway and should be replaced but then I would be removing all filtration. Second: do snails, crabs and urchins carry ich and should I put them back in the tank after the 8 weeks? Third: when doing hypocrites how often should I change the water?

MrTuskfish, Wow what a statement, "Eliminating ich is done regularly by people on this forum; often after they've learned that ich never has to be a problem if a QT is always used." When you find a way to eliminate ich let everyone know and you should live comfortable the rest of your life. There is no way to eliminate ich we have to manage it, ie quarantine tank. Which is a great idea and will give you the best chance of not having ich but not a way to eliminate it as you stated. Can't speak for the person that wrote the info I passed on but here is a link to an article that backs it up and by the way it's one of many articles I read just did not want to boar you with details since you seem to read so much,
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

Problem is that bperau states "Problem is I have to big of a tank and to many fish to just up and put them in a QT." So I'm offering him a solution that has worked for me. Yes I had Ich and placed my fish in a QT tank, 8 weeks. Left my DT fish less for 8 weeks also. Not to mention the difficulty of placing back the aqua scape, and one month later Ich. I was holding back on food trying to control Cyano. Problem with the fish was solved and it's been over a year. Good water and lots of food. Also being careful not to overfeed.

Anyway I'm just stating what worked for me> bperau, best of luck and I hope your fish do well. Keep us posted. I think your doing right by feeding and trying to build there immune systems. I'm sure the stress of the move has aided in this outbreak. Keep your water quality good and if you have one thats not eating I'd do everything I could to catch him, QT him and get him eating then find whats wrong then treat him. Nothing wrong with putting your fish in a QT tank. I think thats what we sould all do when we get new fish!

If your going to treat for ICH you only have to take your fish out. Put them in a tank with some PVC pipe, place for them to hide, and treat them. Read the articals I sent MrTuskfish. That should give you an idea. Don't take out your sand or live rock thats your main filter in your tank. Remember your QT tank may have to cycle. You can aid this with water from your DT tank.

Oh man I feel your pain; I have a 125 and have been living with ick for a couple years, in which time I have I lost three fish. It has been a dilemma for me because I definitely want the ick out if my system but I also feel like I have too many fish and too little space/time/money to safely QT all my fish at once. I'm not sure you really have much of a choice though, with that many fish in your tank (unless they are all around 2") I don't know how much of a chance you would have at managing the ick in your system.

I suggest you read up on ick, as you can see it is a hotly debated topic; however don't be fooled ick is not a virus it is a parasite just like fleas on a dog it can be eradicated if treated properly.


Good luck

I got the Puffer to eat a little yesterday and hopefully he will when im gone. I'm thinking when I get back the easiest thing to do would be take everything out of my tank but the fish and place them in some bins with heat, light, powerhead that way the liverock and corals do not die and leave them for 8 or 9 weeks. Then perform hypo on my 180g. I feel that would be less stressfull on the fish rather than trying to net them all. But when i do hypo do i want to take the sand out and leave my protein skimmer running?

Sorry if I was a bit snarky; but I think my two main points are very valid. 1.) Ich can be eliminated, not just managed. 2.) UV is not much help in the battle with ich. IN fact, the two posts you mentioned from Fenner's site, wetwebmedia, seem to confirm both of my points. There may be a very few hobbyists who may have no choice but to "manage'', rather than eliminate ich. But for the vast majority (IMO), especially these seeking help on this forum, elimination of ich is usually possible and should certainly be the goal.
I've lived with a "managed" ich system. never again. The constant worry about the countless stressors, the very limited options of doing anything new with the tank & occupants, plus knowing that ich is almost certainly is going to return, makes this hobby far less enjoyable. While we're quoting Bob Fenner; he sure makes it clear that a QT is an absolute necessity for success, not just something that's nice to have, I couldn't agree more. (From Bob Fenner's book "The Conscience marine Aquarist", 1st ed.)

I would go ahead and take all the sand out to eliminate any possibility of Ich parasites being embedded there. Yes, leave the protein skimmer running. What are your other filtration plans once you take the LR out? Are you running a sump? Do you plan on adding some HOB filters or sponge filters?

Whoever wrote this doesn't even understand what Ich is. It's a parasite, not a "latent infection" or a virus like HSV-1. You would use antibiotics to help bolster your natural immune system to fight off an infection and there is no known vaccine for HSV-1. Ich, on the other hand, is a parasite which dies in the free-swimming stage in the presence of copper, a poison. Or bursts apart from the lower SG it cannot tolerate in hypo. Or if you can time it's life cycles accurately, you can out run it via tank transfer method. These are all proven, scientific methods.

I figured I would take out everything but the fish including the sand since it is old and should be replaced with new sand anyway, qt all that for 8 or 9 weeks and the big tank. Never done it before but I have a general idea after reading a ton. I figured I would need some type of filtration but I wasnt sure if just doing a water change everyday would work instead. Im sure id have to buy a big expensive filter if I went for filtration rather than daily water changes. Let me know, like I said im just thinking, never really done this before

I think it would be best to do a combination of both - filtration and WCs. Mind you, I don't think you'll need to do daily WCs. Maybe 2x weekly. But I would add at least two large HOB power filters to help out. Maybe have a look on the local craigslists where you live to save $$$. Also, pickup one of these to keep an eye on the ammonia:

http://www.seachem.com/Products/prod...oniaAlert.html

alanbates, although i agree with you that keeping a stress-less environment is essential, that is not the solution to ich. ich (cryptocaryon irritans) has been studied thoroughly and absolute cures have been found more than a decade ago. it has been posted in many scientific studies. just do a google search and you should find a few easily. the ich stickies on this forum take from these studies and provide short and useful summaries of the ich life cycle and its cures. relating ich to herpes simplex is not a valid point as a cure for herpes has not been found to date, but that should just be a matter of time. the same goes for AIDS as well, hopefully.

we all have heard stories about people trying the proposed methods (hyposalinity, copper, tank transfer) to cure ich but did not succeed. In those circumstances, there's usually something during the treatment that didn't go right. Ich treatments require very rigorous protocols. The salinity needs to be held constant, the copper dosage needs to always be above the therapeutic level, there should not be cross contamination between QT and DT, etc. With the right protocols, ich is actually very easy to cure. Leaving the DT fallow for 10 weeks is guaranteed to let all of the current ich strands to go through full life cycles and die (i can't speak for mutations that could possibly happen in the future).

you challenged MrTuskFish to completely eliminate ich. Well, he has done that for many many years, and so have most of the experienced aquarists on this forum including myself.

You also mentioned the stress of removing fish from DT into QT would induce an ich outbreak. Yes it probably would, but since you're treating them, why does it matter? Also why do you think a person can "manage" a stress-free environment indefinitely? A simple power outage without a portable generator could lower the temperature and increase the stress level dramatically, and this is something you can't control. in fact, the recent hurricane in the northeast caused lots of tank crash, some of which were actually caused by "managed ich" killing stressed fish in the tanks without power. This happens often enough in the past that we do not recommend managing ich, but rather curing it. all it takes is one stress factor that you cannot control or predict to allow ich to go rampant in the tank.

in short, ich cures have been found and proven to work. i have cured at least 20-30 fish of ich in the past. it is very easily done in a QT when you buy a new fish (since your filter only needs to supply one fish's load), but very hard to do once you have a DT full of 15 fish. This is why we recommend QTing every new fish and treating it before it goes into the DT.

The ICH related to the herpes may not be a good example to those who are not familiar with medicine. I did not right it but I understand herpes can flair from stress. So the author was relating the two facts. As for eradicating Ich you can never be 100% positive. You and your friend have maintained a stable environment. Ich is most likely in 99.9% of hobbyist. Thats not my findings but you can read about it in the links I posted before. Look Ich is out there. We are all going to have to deal with it. There are treatments to manage it. There is nothing to eradicate it or it would not be a problem.

There are lots of post here about hypo. Please read and be familiar before you make any big steps. From what I read before you have to keep your salinity at a very constant level to be successful. Have not done it but remember what I've read. I think it can be done. I would also look into the removal of your sand. Sounds like trouble to me. It's got lots of beneficial bacteria and you may cause some problems. According to everything I've read Ich needs a host. Sand is not a host. Just do a bit more research and don't get caught up in the ****ing match about how to treat Ich. I think you have a good idea.

Sure, it can be eradicated. Fish in a QT with hypo, copper, or tank-transfer and DT fishless for 10+ weeks will almost always eradicate ich. Nothing is 100% certain, but this works most of the time. This is very common practice and has worked for many people on this forum.