Is my Kalk with ATO process OK?

[92reefer]

I have a 60G cube with a 5 gallon glass rectangle top off tank next to the sump (all I could fit under the tight space).

Tank load is extremely light:

1) 20 pounds of Marco rock with 5 pounds of "seed" live rock

1 - small hippo blue tang (about 1.5")

1- royal gramma

1- fire red shrimp

3- red leg hermits

1- small frag with some green polyps


I was previously battling a low alkalinity problem after trying to adjust my tank parameters to acceptable limits (CA=400, ALK=8.0 kdh, MAG ~ 1280)/ Alk would slowly start falling all the way down to about 5.5 dkh!

So I received advice (somewhere on this forum) that I could just pick up some Mrs Wage Lime and start adding 1tsp/gallon to my RO/DI and add that to my topoff reservoir to help maintain and sustain the ALK and CA.

My process that I've been following the last couple months:

1) I mix the RO/DI with the Mrs Wages (1 tsp per gallon) as the RO/DI is filling up in a 5 gallon container. I then cap it off and shake the container vigorously for about 2 minutes.

2) I then dump the contents of the 5 gallon container and entire contents directly into a 5 gallon glass reservoir with no lid (I was told that it was OK to dump water and sediment/powder into ATO tank?)

3) An aqualifter pump is triggered by a JBJ auto-leveling Topoff system which sucks the topoff/Kalk-water from an air line tubing held at about 1" off the bottom of the 5 gallon glass topoff tank (to keep pump from sucking powder and solids from bottom of tank). I don't do any additional stirring or mixing once the mixture is added to the topoff tank ie about once a week.

4) Once a month I unplug the ATO while the topoff tank is low and I use a square plastic container to scrape up and discard as much of the solid white powder as I can. I then fill the ATO tank again (step #1), plug in and resume

QUESTIONS:

Is the process that I'm following OK?
Is it OK to not have a lid on my ATO tank?
Is it OK to dump the KALK mixture directly into the topoff tank without letting the water settle and siphoning off the top (seems like a PITA to me)?

[Indymann99]

I have a 2.5g ATO reservoir and I just dump 1tsp of kalk (BRS) into the reservoir every other fill up. I turn off the ATO for about 2 hrs to let the Kalk solids settle and then turn back on the ATO system.

I don't think you need to use a 2nd container to mix and shake for 2min.. I just gently stir in the Kalk powder with an old plastic spoon.

I do believe that a lid is recommended when your ATO has Kalk in it.

I successfully have brought up all my params (especially PH). working like a charm..

[DDon]

As indymann99 said, no need to premix. I add Kalk powder directly to ATO container stir and let sit with ato pump off for an hour or so until it settles. Also, no need to remove the excess on bottom of container as often as you do as long as you do as long as suction of the pump isn't picking it up. Your ATO tank should be covered though.

I use the Toms aqualifter with airline tubing as well. Just be aware that the tubing may start to plug up over time with using kalk and need to be cleaned.

[campos]

why do we need to keep our ATO with Kalk in it covered? Just curious, I have a 10 gallon tank I use for a top off and I don't keep it covered. What are the benefits?

[DDon]

Kalk can interact with the CO2 in the air to form calcium carbonate which can decrease the potency of the kalk solution. With normal use though i don't believe it is really much of an issue.
Another reason for me to cover it is kalk is a strong base (pH around 12) which can cause burns to the skin and severe damage to the eyes. Having a snap on lid would keep my little ones out of it in the event they messed around in the stand (which they better not).

Here is a good article on kalk degradation by Randy Holmes-Farley.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-0...ture/index.php

[92reefer]

Help Please......

So I balanced my levels (ALK=8.4 dkh, CA=400, MAG=1280) and just retested 1 week later.

ALK has dropped to 6.1 while my CA and MAG are the same (CA=400, MAG=1280). I don't understand why my ALK keeps dropping? Is it possible that my Kalk/ATO topoff tank is causing this because it's uncovered under the stand and reacting with the CO2 in the air?

[DDon]

I doubt that is the cause. At what concentration did you make up your kalk? You may need to increase your concentration of calk to match your alkalinity demand.

[92reefer]

Originally Posted by DDon

I doubt that is the cause. At what concentration did you make up your kalk? You may need to increase your concentration of calk to match your alkalinity demand.

I mixed at 1 teaspoon per gallon and since I have almost no "bio-load" I can't figure out what's consuming the ALK. I mean i have 2 live rocks, the rest dead Marco Rock, 1 small hippo tang, shrimp, royal gramma and 3 red-legged hermits. No coral at all with the exception of a small frag with about 8 tiny polyps.

Isn't something consuming the ALK or making it drop without the corresponding drops in CA and MAG? I was told that the KALK mix in the topoff would boost ALK and CA in equal amounts. I that was the case then everything would be in limits or degrade across the board. I just can't figure out my tanks drop in only ALK?

[DDon]

From your livestock, your alk/ca demand should be pretty low (my apologies that I missed that in your first post, I only focused on you kalk question). Do you have a lot of coralline algae? Are you noticing any white precipitation anywhere? Buildup on pumps, heaters etc.? What is your water change schedule? What salt are you using? Have you tested the levels of new saltwater?

[92reefer]

I started the tank with 1 piece of live rock (cultured Bali) and it didn't have much corraline on it. The rest was dry Marco Rock. The Marco Rock never did seed or grow corraline since I started the tank about 1.5 years ago. I pulled out the slime algae encrusted old Marco Rock and just replaced with new dry (white) Marco Rock. I added one decent sized "new" live rock that was completely encrusted in Corraline hoping that this time it would seed the dead rock. It's only been about 2 weeks since that change so I can't tell but it appears that my live rock piece's corraline is fading...

I've been using IO salt and did have to boost the ALK, CA and MAG to get within limits which a week ago was ALK=8.4, CA=400, MAG=1280

I did have some hard thin precipitation in the sump and on the heater that I had to remove when I was doing the large SW change (30 gallons of a 60G cube). But wouldn't the large SW change at 50% give the water enough ALK and CA, especially since I boosted the levels to get in the sweet spot?

[DDon]

Was the precipitation after you started kalk additions or before? Are the values you listed in the last post what you adjusted the makeup water to and was that tested just prior to adding to you tank or was that your tank values after adjustments? Sorry for all the questions, I am just making sure I understand where you are and what all you have done.

If your levels before were at 5.5 (from your first post) and you did a 50% water change with makeup water at 8.4, your new tank value would be around 6.9 to 7.0

I believe with the minimal demand in your tank you should not need to use kalk and should be able to get by with regular water changes to maintain levels.

Could you share how you are adjusting the levels in the makeup and are you seeing any precip in you makeup storage container?

[92reefer]

ANSWERS below DDon:

Originally Posted by DDon

Was the precipitation after you started kalk additions or before?
I can't really remember it's been so long

Are the values you listed in the last post what you adjusted the makeup water to / NO, I made adjustments to the tank and then measured the tank water.

was that tested just prior to adding to you tank or was that your tank values after adjustments? Tank values after adjustment

If your levels before were at 5.5 (from your first post) and you did a 50% water change with makeup water at 8.4, your new tank value would be around 6.9 to 7.0 / I've never measured the makeup water; only tank water. After 50% water change tank readings were: ALK=6.1 CA=340 MAG=1185. I then used baking soda mixed with RO to bring ALK to 8.4 / used Prestone Driveway Heat (anhydrous CACL) to bring CA to 400 / used BRS Mag Chloride and Mag Sulfate to bring MAG to 1280 (those readings were all tested from tank water after adjustments. 1 week later CA and MAG were the same but ALK dropped back down to 6.1. Something is causing ALK only to drop. I had the low ALK problem before I started dosing KALK and was told that KALK would supplement both ALK and CA equally which is why I started that regimen.

Could you share how you are adjusting the levels in the makeup and are you seeing any precip in you makeup storage container? I'm not seeing precip in the makeup container at all (32 gal trash can to mix salt)

[92reefer]

bump for DDON or anyone else with my dropping ALK problem. Is it normal for me to have hard precipitation on my heater and the floor of my sump and if not is that related to my ALK dropping?

[Staisman]

What salt mix do you use?

[DDon]

Hey 92reefer,
I would stop dosing the kalk first since you should have a low demand. Bring your levels up in DT to where you want them and start testing daily so we can determine normal demand. (If levels are way out bring them up slowly). Test the levels of your new saltwater so we can see where that is.
What is your ph running. What test kits are you using and can you get relatively consistent results from them?
How much precipitation are you seeing and are you seeing it on a consistent basis?

[92reefer]

Originally Posted by DDon

Hey 92reefer,
I would stop dosing the kalk first since you should have a low demand. Bring your levels up in DT to where you want them and start testing daily so we can determine normal demand. (If levels are way out bring them up slowly). Test the levels of your new saltwater so we can see where that is.
What is your ph running. What test kits are you using and can you get relatively consistent results from them?
How much precipitation are you seeing and are you seeing it on a consistent basis?

I'm using all SALIFERT brand tests and my ALK test kit is extremely low which is why I didn't test my SW change water. I was using KALK because I had trouble trying to keep ALK in line with CA using Randy's homemade 2 part. I just don't understand why the ALK keeps dropping once balanced in the tank versus CA which doesn't drop? The precipitation happened over a long period (over a year)

[DDon]

It may be worthwhile testing your new water when you are able. It's possible it is low in alkalinity and needs to be adjusted before use or possible Alk is normal and ca is high. I have never used IO so not sure what it mixes at. I assume you are running around 1.026 for salinity.

If you are able (when you have a new test kit since you said your kit is low), I would adjust tank to where you want, then test parameters daily with no dosage to see what your daily demand is.

Here is a another thread of someone going through something similar. Some good information in it that may assist you.


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2439859

[92reefer]

DDon;

My salinity is right at 1.026 / I took my self calibrated refractometer to the local fish store and they compared readings to theirs. Dead on so Salinity is accurate and not a factor.

I used my Taylor FAS DPD test kit to measure the chlorine coming out of the waste water on my R.O. per Bulk Reef Supplies recommendation to prove if the carbon blocks are still good. Read 0 PPM free chlorine so carbon blocks good and sediment filter and RO membrane recently replaced.

Last test was I used the Salifert ALK to test the output of my RO/DI. Reading came up at .6 DKH / Is that a problem? Is the RO/DI makeup fresh water supposed to be that low in Alkalinity?

[Reefer4evaa]

I have a 60 cube also and had struggled with low alkalinilty in the past..I was using coralife salt mix which is high in calcium (which would make the alkalinilty low)what I started using was baking soda and manually dosed till my alkalinilty and calcium was where I wanted them then I used KALK in my top off to maintain my paremeters

[DDon]

Originally Posted by 92reefer

DDon;

My salinity is right at 1.026 / I took my self calibrated refractometer to the local fish store and they compared readings to theirs. Dead on so Salinity is accurate and not a factor.

I used my Taylor FAS DPD test kit to measure the chlorine coming out of the waste water on my R.O. per Bulk Reef Supplies recommendation to prove if the carbon blocks are still good. Read 0 PPM free chlorine so carbon blocks good and sediment filter and RO membrane recently replaced.

Last test was I used the Salifert ALK to test the output of my RO/DI. Reading came up at .6 DKH / Is that a problem? Is the RO/DI makeup fresh water supposed to be that low in Alkalinity?

Your ro/di if working correctly is very pure water so should read very low (0 tds)
Sorry if I want very clear, but wanted to know what your fresh saltwater parameters are. Different salts mix to different levels, if the levels of new saltwater is significantly different than what you are trying to maintain in your tank this will cause your parameters to vary when you do water changes. I have never used IO salt so have no idea what levels you can expect. Testing will give you an idea if you need to make adjustments to your new saltwater before you do water changes. Are you able to test the parameters of your fresh saltwater? Also out of curiosity, how often are you doing water changes and how much. You did mention before that you had performed a large water change but what is the norm for you?

[92reefer]

Originally Posted by DDon

Your ro/di if working correctly is very pure water so should read very low (0 tds)
Sorry if I want very clear, but wanted to know what your fresh saltwater parameters are. Different salts mix to different levels, if the levels of new saltwater is significantly different than what you are trying to maintain in your tank this will cause your parameters to vary when you do water changes. I have never used IO salt so have no idea what levels you can expect. Testing will give you an idea if you need to make adjustments to your new saltwater before you do water changes. Are you able to test the parameters of your fresh saltwater? Also out of curiosity, how often are you doing water changes and how much. You did mention before that you had performed a large water change but what is the norm for you?

I've usually kept a small bio load so I really don't do frequent versus large water changes. I have routinely struggled with dropping ALK levels in my tank just like Reefer4evaa posted above. I was also plagued with the hardening of the substrate. I used to run very fine oolitic grade which solidified in huge chunks. After doing a tank reset and switching to Carib Sea special grade (much larger grains in mix) I no longer have the hardening/clumping substrate issue but I still have yet to resolve the mysterious dropping of ALK. I adopted the ALK in the topoff based on numerous suggestions here but it really hasn't solved the dropoff in ALK. I'm perplexed and disgusted at the same time. I don't have a lot of animals in the tank, only 1 coral frag and I am Struggling to keep the water chemistry in balance. Something has to be missing, just like the member that Reefer4evaa posted a link to (above). We share the same scenario.

It'd be nice to resolve the issue so I can once again enjoy my tank

[Reefer4evaa]

Getting your alkalinity up is a slow process and it takes time and by no means should be rushed.being that you don't have alot of corals that are absorbing them on a daily basis it shouldn't be too hard.if I where you I'd do a hefty water change,stop dosing kalk,use baking soda there should be a reef calculator either o n this site or bulk reef supply should have it.I would recommend only dosing (if I'm correct )30 mill a day and you should be safe.now if you test the water daily you will see a slow increase of alkalinity maybe 1 dkh a week or maybe more.if you have any problems let me know...and as far as my 60 cube it's 90% sps that absorbs the alkalinity on a daily basis

[Reefer4evaa]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2171141

[92reefer]

OK Guys and Gals. I stopped dosing Kalk. There is just RO/DI in the the topoff reservoir.

As previously stated my RO/DI product water reads .6 DKH (using Salifert test kit). I'm not sure if that is a normal reading or not?

Anyway. Measured AlK yesterday at 8.0 DKH. Tested again today to get the 1 day drop (without adding any chemicals to compensate) and my ALK now reads 7.0 DKH. So it dropped a full 1 DKH in 24 hours. Is that normal? I didn't expect that but it does make sense regarding my dropping ALK problem. I just don't get it since there is basically no corals/animals in the tank or corraline to be using the ALK?

So using the reef chemistry calculater to move from 7.0 DKH to 8.0 DKH says to add 50ml of Randy's 2 part RECIPE #1 (using baked baking soda) and says to add 100ml if using Randy's 2 part RECIPE # 2 (non-baked regular baking soda). Doesn't that sound like a lot of ALK to be adding to a 60G tank with almost no bio-load for a 1 day drop in ALK?

Advice/opinions on whether to proceed with the above daily additions to adjust ALK?

[Reefer4evaa]

Don't understand what's absorbing the alk..as far as using the baking soda if you bake it the cooked baking soda will be a stronger solution as apposed to not baking it.I personally never bake it and use 1 1/8th cup of unbaked baking soda reason being it won't ra>se my ph significantly as apposed to baking it....the baked solution will raise your alk faster and it will raise your ph to dangerously high levels (I found out the hard way)being that we have the same size tank I would stick with using 1 and an 1/8th of baking soda in a one gallon container of fresh Rodi water and ONLY dose 60 mil twice a day (which will raise your alk safely .038dkh each dose.it will take time to get the alkalinity to where you want it but you won't have problems.also keep in mind that even though it shouldn't raise you ph it will over time so monitor that also..hope this helps you out...keep me posted