Live Sand or Bare Bottom

steveUNO · 01/18/2007, 07:03 PM

I'm about to start my first reef tank soon and so I've been visiting the LFS' asking alot of questions about the actual set up. I've been advised by a few to definitely use 1 to 2 lbs of live sand per gallon, while others tell me that a bare bottom is the way to go. If I remember correctly, I was told that if I do go with the live sand, siphoning/ cleaning it is gonna be a hassle and that I would have to replace it every so often. Is this true? I may have misunderstood what the person said at the LFS. He also told me that it would also kill the bottom part of the live rock that sat in the sand. I'm sure there are pros and cons to live sand so I'm hoping all you experts can shed some light on this subject. Thanks.

kookerson · 01/18/2007, 07:11 PM

I think most people prefer to have a sandbed for a multitude of reasons.........its more natural, it helps along with the natural filtration and houses tons of beneficial organisms, . With barebottom, you very little maintenance.....but you get no natural filtration or natural food for your fish. As far as maintenance goes for having a sandbed, It really doesnt seem like that big of a deal......especially if you have a decent clean-up crew.......HTH! : )

xenon · 01/18/2007, 08:24 PM

BB FTW!

xinumaster · 01/18/2007, 08:28 PM

The new tank 375g I will be setting up will be BB with remote DSB.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=988531

AZDesertRat · 01/18/2007, 08:29 PM

I have had them all including crushed coral, shallow sand, bare bottom and deep sand bed and much prefer the DSB. BB looks to sterile and unnatural, shallow sand needs maintenance, crushed coral traps detritus and requires even more work and DSB takes care of itself with a proper cleaning crew.

bertoni · 01/18/2007, 09:09 PM

To Reef Central

This thread might help:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=803688

steveUNO · 01/19/2007, 09:22 AM

First off, THANKS for all the helpful replies and articles!

If I do decide to go with a DSB, what type of clean up crew would you recommend to keep it clean. BTW, I will be setting up an 80g, if that makes any difference.

AZDesertRat · 01/19/2007, 10:31 AM

Nassarius snails, cerith snails, turbo snails, astrea snails, a few scarlet hermits and a fighting conch work well for me.

dippin61 · 01/19/2007, 03:47 PM

BB .. i would never ever ever ever ever ever go back to sand.

ever.

Joe Cool · 01/19/2007, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dippin61
BB .. i would never ever ever ever ever ever go back to sand.

ever.

+1

EdKruzel · 01/19/2007, 05:23 PM

I ran BB in the late 70's and early 80's and although this will hurt many feelings, those that run a BB today don't have a proper understanding of the biological make-up and the compatibility required to succeed.
This doesn't make it right or wrong and it comes down to personal choice, however I have to agree with AZ on this one; I would quit the hobby before running a BB tank again.

With the proper planning a DSB not only looks more natural, but is so beneficial.

Dr.FuManchu · 01/20/2007, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EdKruzel
I ran BB in the late 70's and early 80's and although this will hurt many feelings, those that run a BB today don't have a proper understanding of the biological make-up and the compatibility required to succeed.
This doesn't make it right or wrong and it comes down to personal choice, however I have to agree with AZ on this one; I would quit the hobby before running a BB tank again.

With the proper planning a DSB not only looks more natural, but is so beneficial.

I think most people running bare bottom these days have a pretty good grasp of "bilogical make-up and the compatibility required" whatever that means. Many beautiful tanks with incredible corals and coral growth on this forum a run barebottom with no issues. As long as you are willing to keep up the extra work and maintanence involved with a DSB then yes it can function properly, even for many years. But, do not decieve yourself into thinking that it is a set it and forget it thing, it requires EXTRA organisms, livestock, and maintenance and even then it may crash your tank.

WaterKeeper · 01/20/2007, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr.FuManchu
As long as you are willing to keep up the extra work and maintanence involved with a DSB then yes it can function properly, even for many years. But, do not decieve yourself into thinking that it is a set it and forget it thing, it requires EXTRA organisms, livestock, and maintenance and even then it may crash your tank.

That can be many, many years Steve. There is an unproven rumor that in X amount of years a DSB releases unknow toxin into the tank water and kills off the entire tank. If such where true there would be reports all over this board. If there are I certainly missed them somehow. There are ZERO documented studies showing that these crashes occur and only pure speculation on the cause of the disaster if it did occur.

By far the easiest method for a beginner is to use a DSB. Use good quality LS and there is no need for "extras". It comes with the needed organisms and it just takes a little time to begin working. You'll be rewarded with a stable, easy to maintain tank.

AZDesertRat · 01/20/2007, 06:18 PM

What "extra work and maintenance" are you referring to? I guess I have been doing things wrong in my sucessful 10G with a 5" DSB because I don't do an extra work or maintenance. Quite the contrary in fact, My old BB had to be vacuumed constantly, my shallow sand bed had to be vacuumed and groomed and the old crushed coral produced nitrates in the 400 range if left alone. My DSB just keeps on chugging away with no problems.

jpitch · 01/20/2007, 07:16 PM

This is what I don't understand. People keep saying they need to keep vacuuming a BB and don't have to with a DSB. That's implying that the detrius is only present in a BB. There is just as much maintenance with both setups. However, you need to keep differrent things in mind.

Edkruzel, as a RC Mod I'd expect a little more neutrality before posting that those with BB tanks have "less understanding of the biological make-up and the compatibility required to succeed". They just have differrent priorities and preferrences than you do, I suppose.

Waterkeeper, there was an interesting article posted in last month's or the month before in the magazine Aquarium Fish attempting to tackle the DSB vs BB issue. And they were very slanted to the BB philosophy. There argument suggested that the risks outweighed the rewards on a DSB.

After reading my post you'd think I ran a BB in my tank. To the contrary, I have a 5" DSB in my display. I have no complaints at the moment but I monitor the situation more carefully after learning of this debate.

sstimac · 01/20/2007, 07:28 PM

i would go with live sand.

AZDesertRat · 01/20/2007, 10:19 PM

Again what maintenance is required with a DSB? I do nothing.

EdKruzel · 01/20/2007, 11:23 PM

Jpitch,
If you're going to quote me please get it right.

Quote:

Originally posted by EdKruzel
don't have a proper understanding of the biological make-up and the compatibility required to succeed.
This doesn't make it right or wrong and it comes down to personal choice,
With the proper planning a DSB not only looks more natural, but is so beneficial.

There are many correct ways to grow livestock, some are better than others and some hobbyists are more successful or have a better understanding of one method over another.
As I stated personal choice, but I do stand by proper understanding.

For a DSB you must feed properly and not keep animals that will decimate the fauna or move copious amounts of sand (sand sifters).
Many I speak with or have read about that complain about their DSB list items such as replacement water with high TDS's or fish and inverts that feed from and dig through the sand.
If you can't abide by the rules to make it work or have the proper understanding of what it takes, than a BB or thin layer is best.
If you're willing to run as necessary, than the benefits are huge.

jpitch · 01/21/2007, 02:06 AM

I really don't want to take this thread away from it's original topic but I did a cut and paste right from your own thread, Ed. You're accusing people that have been in this hobby for DECADES. To accuse those that choose BB because of a lack of understanding is like a politician saying women don't belong in a particular career field. It's suicide. I hope fellow mods will take you aside and maybe explain it in a way I perhaps am not that will allow you see what you are really saying. I understand you are not saying either is right or wrong but to take this topic and attack a particular group is not in the best interest of this topic. Sorry to those that have followed this thread and got sidetracked by my babble.

Brent Burton · 01/21/2007, 09:40 AM

I run both. On my reef I have 4" dsb. its very easy to maintain, all i do is give it a good stir once in a while and let the inverts have at it. I have cucumbers, mini brittles, sand sifting crabs, hermits, horseshoe crabs, all sorts of snails, sifter star ect...
On my community tank i have bb. Even easier to maintain. I feel its just a personal preference thing. both have benefits and disadvantages.

EdKruzel · 01/21/2007, 11:20 AM

jpitch,
You didn't cut and paste or it would have been the exact words I used, at n o time did I type "Less Understanding".
I'm not accusing anyone of anything when it comes to their tank keeping methods.
Decades in anything doesn't make you an expert; some people research to death before adding that first drop of water and have more knowledge than the guy that just drops in fish and kills them year after year.
AGAIN, there are many correct ways to keep livestock and if it is sand predators you wish then a BB is all you can keep long term.

Brent,
By stirring up your DSB and keeping the listed animals you have there will be problems down the road; maybe not disastrous problems, but at the very least you're not getting the added benefits you can with a proper working (undisturbed) DSB.

WaterKeeper · 01/22/2007, 01:17 PM

Nothing gets things stirred up like a good DSB vs. BB thread. I myself used barebottom FO tanks for years. Back in those days LR and DSB's were unknown to the majority of reefers. Nitrate was always a problem so as many hobbyists discovered LR and the DSB approach there was major rejoicing.

A BB can work pretty well if you have enough LR. The problem is LR has a finite filtering ability and the pore structure clogs with bacteria and algae over time. Eventually, the rock becomes covered with algae. To see how this is overcome just do a search on "cooking" LR. There are legions out there who must nearly destroy the LR to get it working properly again and the process requires several months to accomplish. Even then the rock is never the same and must be "cooked" again in fairly short order.

Now a DSB also accumulates material that reduces its effectiveness but it provides much longer filtering ability than LR alone. When algae begins to form on the bed one just removes the top portion, say 1/4 of an inch or so, and replaces it with fresh LS. Usually the bed will be fine after the replacement as it provides new biota to the bed.

I'm not saying one shouldn't go BB but I think the DBS is better for the novice as it requires very little care and one need not take down their tank every year or two.

GSMguy · 01/22/2007, 01:24 PM

its simple to me sps tanks with huge skimmers go bare bottom mixed reef go sand
that said the nicest LPS tanks are sometimes bare bottom what do u want to keep

MiddletonMark · 01/22/2007, 01:39 PM

How about this question ....

What do you plan to keep?
If you want a jawfish, there is only one answer.
Same for other livestock.

While many things can be kept in both - let's not get the cart ahead of the horse .... what do you want to keep?

Saddler · 01/22/2007, 10:10 PM

In the past I had heard that you need 6" for a jawfish, can you get away with 4"? Also, will 6" create dead spots at the bottom of the sand?

01/18/2007, 07:03 PM	#1
steveUNO Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 24	Live Sand or Bare Bottom I'm about to start my first reef tank soon and so I've been visiting the LFS' asking alot of questions about the actual set up. I've been advised by a few to definitely use 1 to 2 lbs of live sand per gallon, while others tell me that a bare bottom is the way to go. If I remember correctly, I was told that if I do go with the live sand, siphoning/ cleaning it is gonna be a hassle and that I would have to replace it every so often. Is this true? I may have misunderstood what the person said at the LFS. He also told me that it would also kill the bottom part of the live rock that sat in the sand. I'm sure there are pros and cons to live sand so I'm hoping all you experts can shed some light on this subject. Thanks.

01/18/2007, 08:28 PM	#4
xinumaster reef addict Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: sj ca Posts: 2,925	The new tank 375g I will be setting up will be BB with remote DSB. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=988531 __________________ -perry/xinumaster Current Tank Info: 375g tank 8'x30"x30"

01/18/2007, 09:09 PM	#6
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	*To Reef Central* This thread might help: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=803688 __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/19/2007, 09:22 AM	#7
steveUNO Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 24	Clean up Crew First off, THANKS for all the helpful replies and articles! If I do decide to go with a DSB, what type of clean up crew would you recommend to keep it clean. BTW, I will be setting up an 80g, if that makes any difference.

01/19/2007, 03:47 PM	#9
dippin61 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,897	BB .. i would never ever ever ever ever ever go back to sand. ever. __________________ Reefers Law: It can take about 48 hours to brown, and 48 weeks to color back up! Current Tank Info: 55 Gallon BB Low Iron Glass, Dual 110w VHO Actinics, 250w PFO MH 20k XM

01/18/2007, 07:11 PM	#2
kookerson Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,017	I think most people prefer to have a sandbed for a multitude of reasons.........its more natural, it helps along with the natural filtration and houses tons of beneficial organisms, . With barebottom, you very little maintenance.....but you get no natural filtration or natural food for your fish. As far as maintenance goes for having a sandbed, It really doesnt seem like that big of a deal......especially if you have a decent clean-up crew.......HTH! : )

01/18/2007, 08:24 PM	#3
xenon Owner of Canada Corals Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Mississauga, Canada Posts: 3,148	BB FTW!

01/18/2007, 08:29 PM	#5
AZDesertRat Moved On Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NW Phoenix Posts: 16,621	I have had them all including crushed coral, shallow sand, bare bottom and deep sand bed and much prefer the DSB. BB looks to sterile and unnatural, shallow sand needs maintenance, crushed coral traps detritus and requires even more work and DSB takes care of itself with a proper cleaning crew.

01/19/2007, 10:31 AM	#8
AZDesertRat Moved On Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NW Phoenix Posts: 16,621	Nassarius snails, cerith snails, turbo snails, astrea snails, a few scarlet hermits and a fighting conch work well for me.

01/19/2007, 05:23 PM	#11
EdKruzel Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 7,384	I ran BB in the late 70's and early 80's and although this will hurt many feelings, those that run a BB today don't have a proper understanding of the biological make-up and the compatibility required to succeed. This doesn't make it right or wrong and it comes down to personal choice, however I have to agree with AZ on this one; I would quit the hobby before running a BB tank again. With the proper planning a DSB not only looks more natural, but is so beneficial. __________________ When you find yourself in "Deep Water" it's best to keep your mouth shut! Current Tank Info: 65RR Cube Mixed Reef

01/20/2007, 06:18 PM	#14
AZDesertRat Moved On Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NW Phoenix Posts: 16,621	What "extra work and maintenance" are you referring to? I guess I have been doing things wrong in my sucessful 10G with a 5" DSB because I don't do an extra work or maintenance. Quite the contrary in fact, My old BB had to be vacuumed constantly, my shallow sand bed had to be vacuumed and groomed and the old crushed coral produced nitrates in the 400 range if left alone. My DSB just keeps on chugging away with no problems.

01/20/2007, 07:16 PM	#15
jpitch Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Middle Island, NY Posts: 908	This is what I don't understand. People keep saying they need to keep vacuuming a BB and don't have to with a DSB. That's implying that the detrius is only present in a BB. There is just as much maintenance with both setups. However, you need to keep differrent things in mind. Edkruzel, as a RC Mod I'd expect a little more neutrality before posting that those with BB tanks have "less understanding of the biological make-up and the compatibility required to succeed". They just have differrent priorities and preferrences than you do, I suppose. Waterkeeper, there was an interesting article posted in last month's or the month before in the magazine Aquarium Fish attempting to tackle the DSB vs BB issue. And they were very slanted to the BB philosophy. There argument suggested that the risks outweighed the rewards on a DSB. After reading my post you'd think I ran a BB in my tank. To the contrary, I have a 5" DSB in my display. I have no complaints at the moment but I monitor the situation more carefully after learning of this debate.

01/20/2007, 07:28 PM	#16
sstimac Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Marquette, Michigan Posts: 12	i would go with live sand.

01/20/2007, 10:19 PM	#17
AZDesertRat Moved On Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NW Phoenix Posts: 16,621	Again what maintenance is required with a DSB? I do nothing.

01/21/2007, 02:06 AM	#19
jpitch Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Middle Island, NY Posts: 908	I really don't want to take this thread away from it's original topic but I did a cut and paste right from your own thread, Ed. You're accusing people that have been in this hobby for DECADES. To accuse those that choose BB because of a lack of understanding is like a politician saying women don't belong in a particular career field. It's suicide. I hope fellow mods will take you aside and maybe explain it in a way I perhaps am not that will allow you see what you are really saying. I understand you are not saying either is right or wrong but to take this topic and attack a particular group is not in the best interest of this topic. Sorry to those that have followed this thread and got sidetracked by my babble. __________________ 36X36X30 DT, 75g sump, Vertex Vectra L1 return pump, Apex 2016, Apex DOS +DDR, Apex 1link, 4 X Kessil A360's, Vertex Alpha 170, Maxspect Gyre 250 x2

01/21/2007, 09:40 AM	#20
Brent Burton Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Anderson, INDIANA Posts: 26	I run both. On my reef I have 4" dsb. its very easy to maintain, all i do is give it a good stir once in a while and let the inverts have at it. I have cucumbers, mini brittles, sand sifting crabs, hermits, horseshoe crabs, all sorts of snails, sifter star ect... On my community tank i have bb. Even easier to maintain. I feel its just a personal preference thing. both have benefits and disadvantages. __________________ crazyreefer Current Tank Info: 70 bowfront reef w/30g sump/refugium,75g community w/20g sump/ref, 45g seahorse w/10g sump & 5g ref.

01/21/2007, 11:20 AM	#21
EdKruzel Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 7,384	jpitch, You didn't cut and paste or it would have been the exact words I used, at n o time did I type "Less Understanding". I'm not accusing anyone of anything when it comes to their tank keeping methods. Decades in anything doesn't make you an expert; some people research to death before adding that first drop of water and have more knowledge than the guy that just drops in fish and kills them year after year. AGAIN, there are many correct ways to keep livestock and if it is sand predators you wish then a BB is all you can keep long term. Brent, By stirring up your DSB and keeping the listed animals you have there will be problems down the road; maybe not disastrous problems, but at the very least you're not getting the added benefits you can with a proper working (undisturbed) DSB. __________________ When you find yourself in "Deep Water" it's best to keep your mouth shut! Current Tank Info: 65RR Cube Mixed Reef

01/22/2007, 01:17 PM	#22
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Nothing gets things stirred up like a good DSB vs. BB thread. I myself used barebottom FO tanks for years. Back in those days LR and DSB's were unknown to the majority of reefers. Nitrate was always a problem so as many hobbyists discovered LR and the DSB approach there was major rejoicing. A BB can work pretty well if you have enough LR. The problem is LR has a finite filtering ability and the pore structure clogs with bacteria and algae over time. Eventually, the rock becomes covered with algae. To see how this is overcome just do a search on "cooking" LR. There are legions out there who must nearly destroy the LR to get it working properly again and the process requires several months to accomplish. Even then the rock is never the same and must be "cooked" again in fairly short order. Now a DSB also accumulates material that reduces its effectiveness but it provides much longer filtering ability than LR alone. When algae begins to form on the bed one just removes the top portion, say 1/4 of an inch or so, and replaces it with fresh LS. Usually the bed will be fine after the replacement as it provides new biota to the bed. I'm not saying one shouldn't go BB but I think the DBS is better for the novice as it requires very little care and one need not take down their tank every year or two. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29 Last edited by WaterKeeper; 01/22/2007 at 01:32 PM.

01/22/2007, 01:24 PM	#23
GSMguy Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern New Mexico Posts: 17,420	its simple to me sps tanks with huge skimmers go bare bottom mixed reef go sand that said the nicest LPS tanks are sometimes bare bottom what do u want to keep __________________ Nick. Conehead. Shallow Reef club. Current Tank Info: 48"x27"x14" Envision Acrylic rimless, 6x39w ATi Sunpower, Custom ATB Deluxe Skimmer, 4x tunze nano stream,ATB flowstar 1500, ACJR, Tunze osmolator.

01/22/2007, 01:39 PM	#24
MiddletonMark Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 14,441	How about this question .... What do you plan to keep? If you want a jawfish, there is only one answer. Same for other livestock. While many things can be kept in both - let's not get the cart ahead of the horse .... what do you want to keep? __________________ read a lot, think for yourself Current Tank Info: 58g stony reef [250w10k, 250w 20k MH, 2x vho act, Octopus150, 6060 + 6000] ; 60g mixed tub

01/22/2007, 10:10 PM	#25
Saddler Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 776	In the past I had heard that you need 6" for a jawfish, can you get away with 4"? Also, will 6" create dead spots at the bottom of the sand?