Sandbed height

gguertin · 03/13/2007, 05:01 PM

I have a 75g that I am rebuilding almost completely and trying to verify everything is currently where the recommended ranges are...

I have a tank that has been set up for at least 2 years. I am averaging peaks and lows of 2-3 inch sand bed. I have read that is the worst level to be at, not low enough and not high enough... (Does someone know if this is true)

From what I have read and this has been over a period of 2 months so it is vague but a remote sand bed will be better with a 1 inch high sand bed? So if you follow the remote sand bed idea it would be better to have for me to remove half my sand and run a remote sand bed?

DaveJ · 03/13/2007, 11:10 PM

Yep your in no mans land.....

Either go 1 inch or go 5.... If you go 5, you have a DSB and you'll want to seed it with some live sand, get a nice crew of nassarius snails, some cukes, a conch or two and anything you can find that will burrow, stir the sand... except sifting starfish.

If you go 1" just keep it clean and you can still do the crew...

drummereef · 03/13/2007, 11:31 PM

The best options in my option are about the same. Shallow Sand Bed = 1" or less. Deep Sand Bed = at least 4 inches depending on grain size.

davidryder · 03/13/2007, 11:31 PM

I have a 90g with about 3 inches... haven't had a problem. I never read any real reasons why NOT to do that, though they may exist.

DaveJ · 03/14/2007, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidryder
I have a 90g with about 3 inches... haven't had a problem. I never read any real reasons why NOT to do that, though they may exist.

Depends on your load and how you do your tank, but typically a 'tweener' ends up being a nitrate sink. The effect is lessened by other critters, and regular maint..... its not a hard and fast rule, but for typical setups either shallow or deep... or none at all is a good rule of thumb.

davidryder · 03/14/2007, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveJ
Depends on your load and how you do your tank, but typically a 'tweener' ends up being a nitrate sink. The effect is lessened by other critters, and regular maint..... its not a hard and fast rule, but for typical setups either shallow or deep... or none at all is a good rule of thumb.

Do you have any good authoritative links off hand? I have 4-5 books with info about tank setup and I can't find anything about sand bed depth in any of them.

DaveJ · 03/14/2007, 08:24 AM

Ron Shiemek (I think that is how it is spelled) and the RC online magazine have had (or written) several articles, I think Ron even wrote a book about DSB's. Depth of the bed is mentioned in just about all of them, though I can't recall a specific side by side comparison. I do recall that Ron's work did include varying depths but I am not sure if 3" was one of them.

I don't have any links off had for you, but you do a search on DSB or sandbeds, I'm sure you'll come up with some extensive reading materials and quite a few links to go around.

E-A-G-L-E-S · 03/14/2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidryder
Do you have any good authoritative links off hand? I have 4-5 books with info about tank setup and I can't find anything about sand bed depth in any of them.

Those aren't very good books then....it is less than1" or at elast 4" or more(sugar fine can be 4-5", larger grains 6"+ as was said above.

davocean · 03/14/2007, 09:01 AM

I find alot of info in books to be somewhat dated.
I've seen some that still talk about under gravel filters in a salt.
I agree, 1" and keep it clean, or 4"-6" and leave it alone.

KRussell · 03/14/2007, 09:08 AM

When I rebuild my tank I went with the 1" and keep in clean method. I have been happy so far.

E-A-G-L-E-S · 03/14/2007, 09:13 AM

Yup, it's pretty easy with a one inch, because then you can just exchange the sand parts at a time and fully remove any buildup in that short .5"-1".
I use a 5" of sugar fine, but if i was to do different it would be a .75" of more coarse sand so you could really let the display go carzy with flow(61x now, would od more like 100x with this type set-up)
-jmo

gguertin · 03/14/2007, 09:19 AM

you guys swap out your sand after time??
What benefit does that have..

E-A-G-L-E-S · 03/14/2007, 09:21 AM

I was just stating that is what i would do if i had a <1" sand bed, but i run a dsb.

davidryder · 03/14/2007, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by E-A-G-L-E-S
Those aren't very good books then....it is less than1" or at elast 4" or more(sugar fine can be 4-5", larger grains 6"+ as was said above.

Well The Conscientious Marine Aquarist and The Complete Saltwater Encyclopedia both mention sand depth, but they don't go into detail. An example of authors using an authoritave voice when in fact what the author states is actually not entirely correct. The Complete Saltwater Encyclopedia says that

"Clownfishes are happiest living amongst the tentacles of a sea anemone, where they are protected from being stung by the mucus coating on their skin."]

But I know this fact is actually not known yet. There are theories I know, but the actual reason behind it is yet to be known. That book also states that anything between 1" and 4" WILL cause nitrate problems.

and then The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner notes:

"While some aquarists have had success with Jaubert-style plenums, others have simply added a 2-to-4-inch layer of live sand to the bottom of their reef tanks and reported improved results. Others have had problems with hydrogen sulfide and excessive hair algae growth with deep sand beds, and no single approach has yet emerged as the winner."

Mr. Fenner continues this topic:

"The Natural Method is one term for a hybrid approach now being tried by growing numbers of American reef aquarists. This method calls for ample use of live rock (1 to 2 pounds per gallon of system capacity), aggressive protein skimming, and a moderately deep (2-3 inch) layer of live sand either on the bottom of the tank or in a separate sump."

I only included what two fairly popular books say but all my books have slightly different information. I would venture to say that if you looked hard enough, you could find a book that says exactly what you want it to say. But I guess my point is that just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's fact. A textbook, probably. But anyone can write a book. And when the authors opinion or educated guess is stated as fact, you have rogues swooping into threads defending there findings to the death. This is to say that 95% of information in all of these books are probably correct. But there are things still unknown and left to somewhat unscientific debate that shouldn't be stated by ANYONE as fact.

benray4fun · 03/14/2007, 11:00 AM

sorry...next post

benray4fun · 03/14/2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by drummereef
depending on grain size.

GRAIN SIZE is just as important as depth... the nitrogen cycle (nitrification/de-nitrification) can be achieved with as little as 3" of oolitic (sugar sized) grain sand.

Grain size any bigger than oolitic and the sand bed would have to be deeper to complete the nitrogen cycle.

A shallow sand bed is purely looks, but not much in filtration aid as far as de-nitrification. The goal is to keep maintenance & nitrates down as much as possible naturally.

If you're gonna have a sand bed any less than 3," I suggest getting a sand sifter, otherwise your gonna be doing a lot of vacuuming yourself.

gguertin · 03/14/2007, 11:08 AM

Interesting? But is there really a reason to replace sand? If I have a 3" sand bed take 2" inches out and do a remote sand bed I would be good right... There is no reason for new sand is there??

benray4fun · 03/14/2007, 12:01 PM

why replace?...I would just add more sand to reach the minimum height capable of a completing the nitrogen cycle and a remote sand bed in a refugium. You want MAXIMUM filtration capability possible for your set-up and this is how to do that.

Stick with aragonite course or oolitic sand, if you're gonna buy new sand, it is the best for ph stability and nitrogen completion (filtering).

The more filtering capacity the more livestock you can keep...

03/13/2007, 05:01 PM	#1
gguertin Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 766	Sandbed height I have a 75g that I am rebuilding almost completely and trying to verify everything is currently where the recommended ranges are... I have a tank that has been set up for at least 2 years. I am averaging peaks and lows of 2-3 inch sand bed. I have read that is the worst level to be at, not low enough and not high enough... (Does someone know if this is true) From what I have read and this has been over a period of 2 months so it is vague but a remote sand bed will be better with a 1 inch high sand bed? So if you follow the remote sand bed idea it would be better to have for me to remove half my sand and run a remote sand bed?

03/13/2007, 11:31 PM	#3
drummereef Team RC Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: STL Posts: 14,754	The best options in my option are about the same. Shallow Sand Bed = 1" or less. Deep Sand Bed = at least 4 inches depending on grain size. __________________ -Brett 180g Marineland Starfire In-Wall 278 gallon system

03/13/2007, 11:31 PM	#4
davidryder Claris or Elliot? Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Nightopia Posts: 2,750	I have a 90g with about 3 inches... haven't had a problem. I never read any real reasons why NOT to do that, though they may exist. __________________ A rolling stone gathers no moss... Current Tank Info: 90g mixed reef, corner overflow (Mag 9.5), 25g refugium (Mag 5), 15g refugium, Orbit 260w pc, Pan World 50PX-X (Closed loop), AquaC EV-120 (now skimmerless)

03/14/2007, 09:01 AM	#9
davocean Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 14,655	I find alot of info in books to be somewhat dated. I've seen some that still talk about under gravel filters in a salt. I agree, 1" and keep it clean, or 4"-6" and leave it alone. __________________ There's a fine line between owning your tank and your tank owning you! Current Tank Info: SCA 120g RR Starfire, Tunze silence 1073.02 return, 40g sump w/ fuge, SWC Extreme 160 cone skimmer,Geismann reflexx 4xT5, 2x Panorama Pro LED strips, Vortech MP40QD

03/14/2007, 09:13 AM	#11
E-A-G-L-E-S Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 7,038	Yup, it's pretty easy with a one inch, because then you can just exchange the sand parts at a time and fully remove any buildup in that short .5"-1". I use a 5" of sugar fine, but if i was to do different it would be a .75" of more coarse sand so you could really let the display go carzy with flow(61x now, would od more like 100x with this type set-up) -jmo __________________ Smug Egotistical Contemptuous It's difficult to get a man to understand something that his salary requires him not to.

03/13/2007, 11:10 PM	#2
DaveJ Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 1,140	Yep your in no mans land..... Either go 1 inch or go 5.... If you go 5, you have a DSB and you'll want to seed it with some live sand, get a nice crew of nassarius snails, some cukes, a conch or two and anything you can find that will burrow, stir the sand... except sifting starfish. If you go 1" just keep it clean and you can still do the crew...

03/14/2007, 08:24 AM	#7
DaveJ Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 1,140	Ron Shiemek (I think that is how it is spelled) and the RC online magazine have had (or written) several articles, I think Ron even wrote a book about DSB's. Depth of the bed is mentioned in just about all of them, though I can't recall a specific side by side comparison. I do recall that Ron's work did include varying depths but I am not sure if 3" was one of them. I don't have any links off had for you, but you do a search on DSB or sandbeds, I'm sure you'll come up with some extensive reading materials and quite a few links to go around.

03/14/2007, 09:08 AM	#10
KRussell Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bay Area California Posts: 97	When I rebuild my tank I went with the 1" and keep in clean method. I have been happy so far.

03/14/2007, 09:19 AM	#12
gguertin Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 766	you guys swap out your sand after time?? What benefit does that have..

03/14/2007, 09:21 AM	#13
E-A-G-L-E-S Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 7,038	I was just stating that is what i would do if i had a <1" sand bed, but i run a dsb. __________________ Smug Egotistical Contemptuous It's difficult to get a man to understand something that his salary requires him not to.

03/14/2007, 11:00 AM	#15
benray4fun Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hartford, CONNECTICUT Posts: 1,147	sorry...next post

03/14/2007, 11:08 AM	#17
gguertin Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 766	Interesting? But is there really a reason to replace sand? If I have a 3" sand bed take 2" inches out and do a remote sand bed I would be good right... There is no reason for new sand is there??

03/14/2007, 12:01 PM	#18
benray4fun Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hartford, CONNECTICUT Posts: 1,147	why replace?...I would just add more sand to reach the minimum height capable of a completing the nitrogen cycle and a remote sand bed in a refugium. You want MAXIMUM filtration capability possible for your set-up and this is how to do that. Stick with aragonite course or oolitic sand, if you're gonna buy new sand, it is the best for ph stability and nitrogen completion (filtering). The more filtering capacity the more livestock you can keep...