Why can't I get a clown to live?

[lakeRat]

OK, this is somewhat embarrassing and very disheartening, but I have killed 3 clowns so far.

Here's the rundown, because I know it's part of the routine.

SG - 1.0255 to 1.026 Always steady in this range (I don't have an ATO yet.)
Temp - 78 to 81 Always steady in this range
Ammonia - 0 randomly get a 0.01 reading
Nitrate - 0 Always steady
Nitrate - 0 Always steady
pH - 8.1 to 8.2 Always steady in this range
Alk - 7 to 8.4 Kh Used to be steady 8.4 but has dropped to 7 recently
Calcium - 425 Recently dropped to 375, but now steady @ 425
Phosphates - 0

Use SeaChem tests.

55MT, 10g Fuge, 10g Sump, 85 lbs LR, fine sand substrate - running since mid Dec. 06. Last Ammonia reading >.01 was around mid Jan. 06.

Since the end of January I have stocked with 2 Zebra Turbos, 4 Nassarius, 1 Margarita, 3 Hermit Crabs, 2 Peppermint Shrimp, 1 Coral Banded Shrimp, 1 Skunk Cleaner, 1 Emerald Crab, 3 Feather Dusters, 1 Zoa Colony (200+ polyps), 1 Hammer Coral, 1 Mushroom, 1 Elegance Coral, 2 Blue/Green Chromis, 1 Royal Gramma, and 3 Clowns.

The three clowns were added at three different times in the last three weeks, from two different LFS, and none have lived. The first made it 8 days, the second about 7 days, and the last one 3 days. All inverts are active, feeding and appear to be fine except my Emerald crab which is turning white. The Chromis have been in the tank for 15 days now and are active and feeding great. The Royal Gramma has been in the tank 3 days and has hid out in a rock, but does come out to feed on live brine and frozen mysis, then back into his hole.

The Elegance Coral....what can I day other than I didn't do my homework. I purchased it from a LFS that had just received it in from a shipment and I couldn't tell a lot about it thru 3 layers of bags. It looked a bit rough, but I figured it was from shipping. Brought home, acclimated for 2 to 3 hours and placed into my tank to find it still looked rough. This is day 2 and it is receding, puffed up around the mouths, and the "tentacles" are deflated. It looks like I'm going to end up with an expensive rock. After more in-depth research about the Elegance, I won't have another. Disappointing because to me it is one of the most beautiful corals. On the bright side, the mushroom is recovering from near death from being semi-squashed in the bag on the way home. My zoa's are doing great, and the hammer coral is already noticeably bigger.

I float-drip acclimate everything. An hour or so for fish, two hours for corals, and two hours for inverts. The drip comes out of the skimmer as I thought this would be the cleanest, most oxygen rich water I could get the acclimation done with.

I haven't lost any inverts. They go into the tank and start feeding like they have been starved and stay active and feeding. With fish I'm batting .500 so far, which is getting discouraging.

Is there something I'm overlooking? Could I just be getting sick fish? (They all looked good at the LFS) On one hand I'm already looking to upgrade to a 75 or 90 (maybe even a 125), but on the other I'm thinking of throwing in the towel and setting this tank back up as freshwater. If things don't change, I'll probably go with the latter. I am thinking I may well be getting sick fish, so if I decide to try any more fish I believe I will try a reputable online retailer, and hope for better quality livestock.

Other info: Due to thinking I have some sort of pollutant in the water and the Elegance dieing, I'm running a lot of carbon at the moment, but I've run carbon since the first clown died. My skimmer pulls fresh air from outside to help with winter CO2 levels. (I live in a rural area where air pollution is not a concern) Any time I work in my tank, I wash with nothing but hot HOT water for 5 to 10 minutes. I'm using RO/Di store bought water and adding Prime to it for water changes and top-off. I also would like to note that I have coraline algae growing on everything - glass, overflow, power-heads, rock, hermit shells, etc. Tons of "critters" in the LR - pods, bristle worms, hundred of dusters on the rock and glass, a few sponges, and some hitch-hikers like stomatella snails, 1 tiny star, and a small crab.

If I have overlooked anything, let me know.

Thanks for any help,

Discouraged

[IPowderBlueTang]

Maybe where you are buying from you are getting sick clowns. A suggestion would be to set up a quaratine tank for your new livestock and quaratine them for awhile before introducing into your display. So if the new fish you buy don't infect your good fish and gives you time to observe their health! In the future try buying only 2 clowns a third will most likely be killed after the trio decide to pair off! Your parameters seem to be right on!

[lakeRat]

Yes, the 10g QT tank is currently up and running. Just set it up 2 days ago for the possibility I get brave enough to buy more fish!

Also, the second clown was bought after the first had been in the tank for a week. After the second clown died, I waited two weeks (and tested for everything) to add the chromis and they did fine. A week later I added the Royal Gramma, and the third clown, of which I now only have the RG.

[MimicTang]

get a qt an hypo it to 1.009 for 6wks

[Scuba_Steve]

Maybe your either getting sick or cyanide caught clowns. What are they doing/signs in your tank before they die? Heavy breathing, hanging out at top, discoloration, spots?

[lakeRat]

The first clown hung around the overflow near the top. Never went anywhere and had a high respiration rate and did not eat.

The second clown brought the first to life, exploring the tank. This lasted for about a day, then the following day the first clown died. The second clown then began acting like the first, hanging around a corner and not feeding. The second never showed signs of labored breathing.

The third clown went into the tank, swam in place in an overhang of rock, then moved to the back of the rock and remained there. Never came out to explore or feed, and the only time it did eat was when something fell right in front of him. Never showed signs of labored breathing either.

No discoloration or spots on any of the three.

The way my Royal Gramma is still hiding out, I'm beginning to get worried about him too. The LFS chased him forever and basically stressed him out trying to catch him. After the chase, I almost told the employee to put him back, but I hated to after the trouble of removing the LR and everything. If I buy from a LFS again, I'll put the fish before the 16 yr old kid that doesn't have a clue.....

[frederickk]

Did you test for copper?

[vtfishies]

IME i would stop use of prime its good for first initial set up when starting with tap water..its used to remove harmful chemicals...last year when i knew absolutly squat about fish in thi hobby, a local fish store sold me 2 fish, yellow tang,and a flame hawkfish,,while he was baggin these fish he stated to use prime when adding a new fish to tank was good was like using stress coat in a fresh water se up, 4 capfuls for my 75 gal, and explain * after i looked at him like he was an idiot, not being far off on that might i add,* i went home acclimated fish, aftr 2 hours put fish in tank,commenced to locate the prime and put 4 capfuls in..keep in mind this was aroud 10 pm at nite.well next morn by 6 am my daycare kids started to arrive..flipped lights on an wham..all my fish were dead.. i would never use prime for anything but tap water and inital set up.. but thats just my .02

[Medaka]

Are these wild caught clowns?

[toddman74]

what kind of clowns are they? are they adult or juv?
I would have to say hold off another month or two before adding clowns. 3-4 months is still pretty new for a tank for clowns in my experience (yes, I also killed a couple of clowns doing the same thing).

[tenwhiteduke]

I have been watching these clowns in the LFS, that have been there for a week now paired together with a anemone. Since they have been there, and they seem to be clean from diseases, would it be necessary for me to QT them before putting into my tank. I dont have a QT tank yet, am still into my first week cycle. I can purchase them though and the owner will hold them till im ready he said. I have been watching them everyday almost.

[lakeRat]

Yes I did test for copper, but using the SeaChem test, neither the reference solution or my water showed any results. So, that was fairly useless. Due to my inverts thriving, I assume I do not have copper issues.

I use prime (per instructions) for top off and water change because I am not sure if the store bought water I use contains chlorine/chloramine. Until I can get a test I hate to just dump it in. I don't use it at any other time. I am currently shopping around for a RO/DI, TDS meter, and a chlorine/chloramine test, so soon one less variable will be in the mix.

The first two clowns were true percs. The last one was a yellow stripe maroon. All were juvenile at approximately 1 to 1 1/2". The yellow stripe maroon was an impulse buy that I had only moderately researched. I remembered it was larger than most clowns, but I didn't remember it's aggression level. Once home with it, I found out more but it was too late. I immediately decided to keep it for a while, make sure it was disease free, and let it grow some before trading it off for true percs. There was no use in further stressing the fish by trying to move him again so soon. Unfortunately it didn't make it that long.

[Sk8r]

I think when you have your own ro/di [it saves money in the long run, and in the case of lost fish, faster] you will have much better luck. Back off the clowns for a while, don't use Prime. Bottled water sold as filtered water should not have chlorine in it---somebody check me on this, but I would be shocked if I went and bought water to be pure and got chlorined water.

[ThomasinKind]

IMO you're stocking pretty fast. I think you should give the tank some time before adding anything else. Let things balance out. Just because readings look good doesn't necessarily mean that you can keep going. There will be a tipping point (in terms of bioload) and you may have reached it already. Give everything a chance to settle (say a couple months) and then maybe try again.

You could also try tank-raised clowns. They are supposedly significantly hardier than wild-caught.

[vtfishies]

i have to agree i'd wait a couple weeks at least if anything it will give u time to figure the problem and will give ur tank time to recoop from the loss's...* i do not use RO/DI water..and dont plan to buy a machine for it anytime soon...but i do use spring water from our local grocery store..hence never using prime again..but thats IMO...if test for copper came out neg..i'm at a loss for what is going on..yes 95% of people do the quarinteen (sp?) i dont and havent for over a year,,do i plan to..i have the 10 gal and 46 but i think i will eventually..but i wouldnt stop buying fish if u dont have a QT tank..a chance most people take.

[Scuba_Steve]

I also would stop using prime. If your worried about chlorine, which i highly doubt lfs bought water has, as it should be ro/di let it sit for a day with a powerhead or air pump in it. Chlorine/chloramine will go go away with a day of airation. Give your system some time to get the prime out. Run some carbon, and skim a lil wetter than normal for a few weeks. Try again in at least 2 weeks if not a month or longer.

[lakeRat]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I knew I might be pushing the time limit on stocking. Once everything settled I started with the first clown, hoping for two but the LFS only had one. Bought the second the following weekend. I was set for a bit with two fish. After the second clown died, I waited two weeks and purchased the two chromis. Everything went well with them so I though I could get two more fish in two weeks. It was actually a week and a half, but that's when I purchased the royal gramma and third clown. I wanted to get a total of four fish going, and I thought two weeks between them would be ok. I guess I should have waited longer. I'll do a month and add one and see how that goes....if everything goes well between now and then.

The alternating times of stocking the clowns is what had me stumped. ~2 clowns die, 2 chromis live, 1 clown dies, 1 royal gramma lives~ It just seems I'm not meant to have clowns. I guess I'll have a neat invert tank.

On the plus side, the Royal Gramma is a bit less shy today. I just did the nightly feeding and he ate well. Also, he perched side-ways just outside of his hole and watched me watching him for a bit. He's still not out in the middle of the tank, but he is a little less reclusive. It's a shame such a beautiful, colorful fish wants to hide in a dark hole out of sight.

Also concerning the RO/DI: From what I have figured so far, by the middle of next month I will have spent enough money on store bought water that I could have purchased a RO/DI unit. I initially figured the price of filling the tank and 10% water changes, but I didn't figure in top-off water. With my halides in an enclosed canopy with a fan, I'm losing a consistent gallon per day. That's an extra 30 gallons a month! It will be great to have my own RO/DI. I also won't get funny looks in the local grocery store pushing a cart full of water.

[szwab]

patience is the best thing you can have in this hobby.
if you are not sure about the water you arew buying either ask or don't buy the water. it's not worth the risk.

how long did the store have the clowns? A quarantine tank would help quite a bit.

I would also suggest not getting any more fish or any livestock for a while to let your tank balance out, bacteria catch up to the load etc.

what brand test kits are you using? may even water to take a water sample to a LFS and have them test it.

In my experience percs and false percs are not the best/easier fish to get when first starting out.

[kmf507]

This may be a dumb question, but could the outside air be too cold? I know clowns are moving almost all the time, and use a lot of air (I would imagine they use more than your other two fish). Could the air be lowering the temp of the water that comes back from your skimmer? I guess it sounds farfetched, but if you have microbubbles that are making it into the clowns gills....

I really cannot think of what else this might be. I do agree about stopping the prime though.

[steri]

I have not had success with any wild caught clowns. The only clowns I have had success with are tank bred. I don't exactly know why, but being that I have had zero problems keeping my other fish thriving, I just assume there is something in the way the clowns are being caught that doesn't mix well with a "tank world."

So, I'd recommend tank bred clowns. Slightly more expensive, but very very hardy!