What fishies?

[Kingx]

So I got my 14g biocube set up and im really excited waiting for my LR to cure and my tank to cycle. I have been reading tons of information from this site as well as others to make sure im doing things right and taking it slow. I still have several questions though that seem to have contraversial awnsers.

Do you purchase sacrificial fish to help cycle a tank? my local LFS says you cannot cycle a tank without their waste but online it says not to add any fish. Was about to pick up 3 damsels but I wanted to make sure this is ok.

I realize I have a small tank and I can only have a few things. Do inverts count as fish? I know about the 1" of fish per 5 gals rule of thumb but a guy at my LFS says inverts count here. He says a snail = half a fish This doesnt sound right to me but im just a newbie. What about shrimp? I also want to have one cleaner shrimp, will he count as a fish?

Will a starfish limit my fish number as well? I really want to add a brittle or one of thoes bright blue starfish at one point but not if it will severely limit my fish capacity.

Eventually, I would also love to add corals to make my little reef beautiful (rock ughly). Does my biocube have enouth lighting to be able to keep coral? If so, what are some good types of coral that I should try. Do coral limit the number of fish you can have?

I would also like suggestions on what fish I should eventually add to my tank! I would really like to get fish with great personalities that are active around the tank. Not anything thats going to hide all the time. Here is a list of fish/invert I came up with that im concidering:
Tomato clown
VALENTINI PUFFER
Firefish
Some type of wrasse
brittle star or blue one (cannot think of the name. Thick arms and blue is all I can remember)
The cleaner shrimp that has the two red stripes
snails (have no idea what kind or how many to get)
hermits (have no idea what kind or how many to get)
Coral ???

I know I can only have max 2-3 fish, but not sure on inverts. PLEASE HELP! I really want to have an awesome reef and at the same respect the living organisms. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I will try and put some photos up of my new tank w/ LR and sand.

Latest water sample:
PH: 7.8
Alk: 300
Nitrite 1
Nitrate 20
Is this good? LFS says its pretty good but this is the first time I tried comparing to the little chart.

-Thanks

[osiris4evr]

i wouldn't add the damsels, it's better to "cook" the live rock. What your LFS was trying to say was you need needed amonia in the tank to cycle. Well it's true the damsels would add this to your tank but a better idea is to let the die off from the LR decay into amonia and allow the tank to cycle from there.

[bigdaddyadam]

first things first, don't worry about nitrates until your tank has cycled....don't bother using fish to cycle, it will work but is 1) a pain and 2) cruel ...what works better is the "fishless" method a google search online will give you numerous sites that espouse this method and I used it to set up quarantine tanks a number of times...basically it involves using pure ammonia, in a bottle, to cycle the tank.. caveat, it must be PURE, the ingredients on the bottle must read ammonia and nothing else, no surfacing agents, dyes, reagents, nothing else, usually the cheapest crap at the store is the stuff with nothing else in it, you are looking for 100% ammonia...I used a brand from wal mart called Sea Mist Clear Ammonia, that does the trick, the sites will give you deteails of how much to does when for any size tank...trust me it works better and you can get the tank woking so well with this method that you can add more than one small fish at the end of the cycle, not just one, because you are cycling it without any fish you can get the bacteria up to dealing with more ammonia quicker

as for fish you have a small tank, the firefish will do well, the puffer, not likely...stars are very suseptible to variations in water quality and are a gamble even in larger well established tanks, so not a good choice for a new or newer tank. as for inverts, once the tank is good and cycled, add away, they do not really count as stock, since most are cleanup crew anyway...that being said in a 14 gallon tank you probably don't need more that about 10-20 snails, 5 or 10 hermit crabs, unless that is all you really want in their I have no idea about whether your light is adequate for corals since I have no idea what type or wattage of lighting a biocube has, anyone else know this information...generally however for soft corals and shrooms you probably want at least 2 watts per gallon minimum if it is power compact lighting, that would mean at least 28 watts of PC lighting not counting the actinic...looks like online that the smaller self contained unit systems like yours usually have 24 watt or 32 PC's so you might be okay for soft corals, shrooms, zoanthids and some low light LPS

[Kingx]

Ah ok, that sounds like a great idea about adding pure ammonia. I will read up on that and do it tomorrow. As for the fish, what do you guys suggest? The only reason I had VALENTINI PUFFER in mind is because my LFS said they did that and you can hand feed them and stuff. He knew my tank size so I dont know why he would suggest this unless he is just trying to rip me off. As for the Tomato clown, I saw that the LFS had a 8g biocube setup at the front desk that was the managers personal tank (he is the one that knows all the stuff about SW). It had a tomato clown in it.

[Kingx]

Im starting to notice huge amounts of brown algae. Im guessing this is normal, when will it go away?

[Illuminati]

It's diatoms, totally normal for new tanks. Once you get a cleanup crew going (hermits or snails) they will eat it.

Avoid a starfish like the plauge!!!!!

I have a 24 gallon nanocube and one of my mistakes was adding a bristle star. Your tank is not big enough and does not have enough food for it to live.

Tomato clowns get a little bigger than Perc Clowns. If you want a clown (which is a good first fish) I would get one of the more peaceful and smaller types.

A firefish is a good idea. Not sure of a wrasse that could work in your tank, I would say a 6 line but the smaller the tank the more aggressive they can be.

Maybe look into a sand goby like the Yellow Watchman Goby or a Blenny like the Bicolor Blenny. Another good pick might be a jawfish, I have heard they are cool and have a lot of personality.

There is a great nano forum here, you should check it out to get advice on stocking and setting up your back chambers, how do you have them setup now?

[Illuminati]

brittle star or blue one (cannot think of the name. Thick arms and blue is all I can remember) - Blue Linka??


snails (have no idea what kind or how many to get)

4 Cernith (For the glass and sandbed)
6 Nassarius (For the Sandbed)
4 Nerite (For the Rock and Glass)

hermits (have no idea what kind or how many to get)
5 Baha Hermits from www.premiumaquaticslive.com, I would get all of your cleanup crew critters from them.


Coral ???
You can keep a wide range under your lighting.
You can do softies like xenia, mushrooms, ricordia's.
LPS like Torch, frogspawn and hammer (watchout they will sting other corals)

Basically you can keep anything besides SPS. But you have PC lights so don't go online and do some shopping thinking what you see is going to be what you get. There will be some corals that won't look as colorful under your lights (Acans, Micro's, some Paly's might not look as good).
Also be very picky in what you add. You don't have a lot of room to play with so before you get something make sure you not only have a spot for it but make sure you'll like it for a good long while (Speaking from experiance here )



Also check out this thread. Kingfisher has the same tank as you and you can see some of his pictures to see what corals he has.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=6


The thread developed into a "How To Setup an All In One Cube" thread. It's up to like 40 pages I think, no way I would read it all but if you go back to before the thread split the first 10 pages is pretty useful.

[dorkfish3]

fish I would suggest a firefish, a false percula tank bred clown (they tend to be smaller when you get them), smaller gobies are great, a small sixline wrasse.

I agree with tomato clowns being to aggressive and a bad idea for a small tank, I do disagree with the starfish because I have had many of them.. first stay away from the colored ones such as green they get huge.. I would get a tiger striped or a grey colored serpent. I do agree that they will starve, but I fed mine regularly and they learn to come out during feeding (they hunt for food at night usually). now if you did do a serpent star I wouldnt add any hermit crabs.. as for corals, stick with soft corals such as zoanthids, mushrooms/riccordia etc... they tend to be easier, zoas and riccordia are actually my favorite.. your water hasnt cycled yet wait until your ammonia and nitrites are both at 0 ppm.
oh and the bright blue starfish is definetly not going to work, they are called blue linkia (didnt know how to spell) they are very hard to keep alive in small tanks, and maybe impossible for lengths of time due to 2 main reason's 1 they cannot tolerate PH fluctuation at all.. 2- it is unknown what they actually eat from the last I heard. I had 1 in my 125 gallon for about a year and it consistantly got smaller..

[LauraLea]

I cannot preach to the choir, but I would never do what I did that to a living animal again. I did and I am so ashamed; I did not know any better. I was told that it was supposed to be that way - it was not explained the torture that those fish wouldd go through. I started a 72 gallon tank and six damsels. I did exactly what the LSFt told me to do. I came home from lunch and five of them were writhing - it was one of the most of miserable things that I have ever saw. I "rescued" one.

If you need some live rock or sand - just let me know. I will UPS or whatever...

-L

[Kingx]

Thanks for the great feedback im getting, good stuff. LauraLea, you mentioned live rock and sand. I currently have 10 pounds of live sand and about 11.5 pounds of LR. Is this a good amount to have? I pretty much broke myself over the rock hand picked 3 pieces from lfs that looked cool, cost me about $100. I heard that is the way to go though for small tanks.

As for the fish feedback, I really dont want to get a fish that is going to hide all the time. Every time i see pictures of gobies they are dug in the sand or under a rock and that discourages me. Im also not sure about a 6 line. If im correct, thats the real small and skinny fish with yellow stripes? I really want to get more of a "show" fish I guess if thats the correct term. Not something huge but something that is large enouth to easily see and observe swimming around the reef.

To many's relief, I have decided not to purchase "cycle" fish. I bought some pure ammonia and going to go that route. I did not realize just how cruel it was until LauraLea told me her experiance.

Any other fish suggestions? Very exciting as I try and decided what to add to my tank!

[Kingx]

Day 7-
So I just did my first water change and I feel horrible. Everything that could have gone wrong did. Very upset now.
First, I took out 3 gallons of water. I had the idea of hooking a ruber hose up to my jet and letting it shoot the water into 1g containers. This was working great until the water in the back emptied -( Then I began to use a cup to get the other 2g out. Worked ok I suppose with a lot of work and a little messy. Then, i poured a gallon of salt water that I already had mixed into the tank. Took another gallon of water and tried putting the correct ammount of salt into the container. Due to small opening, would not work! only got 1/4 of the amount in. Frustraited, I shook that up to mix and poured it in. then I just dumped the rest of the salt in near the jet thinking it would disperse. To my dispay, it piled on top of my rock! I notice this after I get all my water in the tank. I tried using my giant spoon to mix my cauldren of sw but salt was still all over the rock. Then, i put my arm in the tank and moved my hand back and forth really fast like a fish tail and got all the salt off the rock and then tried to mix it. (I guess it is mixed now?)

I am very upset that things could go so badly on my first water change. Could someone please give me some advice to make this process as easy as it sounds?
Thankfully no live animals in the tank as of yet so I didnt kill anything. Please do not tell me I need to take all my water out and start over -(
On another note, a lot of my brown algey got knocked off the rocks in the process and is all in my sand. Will this go away? looks really bad.
-One very sad reefer

[Illuminati]

Well first I would get a 5 gallon bucket from the paint section of your local hardware store for future water changes. Get 2, one for "new" water, the other for "waste" water.

I just turn off all of the pumps and the heater to my tank. I take a couple gallons out of the display, right up to where a few corals are just under the water level.
At this point the water level should be below your top intake grill.
I turn on the powerhead back on and it pumps most of the water from the back chamber into the display. When that runs dry you will be able to tell, then unplug it.
Then scoop out another couple gallons of water (I do larger waterchanges, you might not need to do as much).

Now you have very little water in the back chambers and it's low in the display.

Plug the heater back in.

I add the water (Using one of those big Taco Bell plastic cups or something similar) to the back chambers.
I never add the new water directly to the display, just a quirk.

Once the back chambers fill back up with water the water will spill into the main display and mix a little. When it's all back in turn the pump on and your set.

How are you measuring the salinity of your saltwater? Hydrometer or refractometer?

[Kingx]

How are you measuring the salinity of your saltwater? Hydrometer or refractometer?

Hydrometer

[Kingx]

After a little more research I thought I would ask what others think.
Would it be possible to add a bicolor blenny & a tomato clown(as someone said, maybe get a small type of clown) to my tank? Read a wide range of different information about each but would like some personal information about each.

Updated my tank to now having around 14lbs LR. I got a free snail hitchiker who seems to be doing ok

I also got what I belive to be is some type of bad aneome. Its brown and tiny growing inside a hole in one of my rocks. Polyp shaped. Could I get an ID and also a way to remove it safely?

As of this week, I am now incharge or my schools 55g saltwater tank. Nobody there really knows anything and I at least have a few months research knowledge so I am taking over. It is basicly going to be like my own 55g except all of it will be paid for by the school Should be a fun experiance, I will try and get pics of it and my tank in their current state. The school tank is 1 1/2 years old. Includes about 20lb LR, 4 damsels, 1 snail. I added a partial clean up crew on my tiny budget. 4 small tubro's, 3 yellow tip hermits. Going to try and get them to give me more money!!!
Thoes DAMsels will be the first to go back to the store so I can restock with more peaceful / beautiful fish. Would also like to add LOTS more LR and coral.
Tomorrow, HUGE water change at school. They have been using TAP WATER!!! The water tested good but probally has trace minerals and chlorene. 50% water change tomorrow with quality water.

[Illuminati]

Sounds like you have an aiptasia anemone. There are products like Joes Juice that you can inject with a syringe to kill it.

Bicolor - Good idea

Tomato Clown - Not a bad idea, it just might get a little big for a 14. I think they are in the semi-aggressive and large catagory of clowns along with Clarki's and Maroons. This fish would dictate future additions.

[Kingx]

Probally a dumb question but can I just pull it out with tweasers or something? It is about --- wide.

[Illuminati]

Not a dumb question but you'll never get it with the tweasers, it will retract in to quickly. Give it a try and see.

The best way is to inject one of the chemicals into the mouth of it, the mouth is right in the center of the oral disk.

[Kingx]

Cant I just pull the whole thing out? It cannot move and it is only one object. Even if it retracts, can I not pull the entire thing out?

[Snowboarda42]

It's going to retract into a VERY small space.

Alot of people use Kalk (Pickling Lime) paste by mixing 2TBSP to 1TBSP water, and spreading it over the Aiptasia.

I would stick to Occellaris or Percula clowns, they're brighter, don't get as big and are alot more peaceful.

As for your cleanup crew, I don't reccomend anything but Mexican Turbo snails as far as snails go. I have 3 Mithrax, 10 Nassarius, 10 Ceriths, 10 Scarlet Hermits, 10 Dwarf Zebras. I added 8 Turbo's and within 5 days my Algae Dissapeared. All the other inverts don't do much to combat algae.

The Rule of Thumb is 1 Mex. Turbo/10 Gallons
I would add a few Hermits, just because they look cool. Get Scarlet or the Dwarf Blue Leg hermits.

As far as corals go, look at Green Star Polyps, Xenia, Mushrooms, etc. You might be able to keep a few Hard corals if you have them up top.

[Snowboarda42]

What are you using to test the water with? Look at Salifert Kits...

And What are you using to dose things like Calcium, Alk, etc.?

[Kingx]

I have test strips that test ph, alkalinity, nitrites, and nitrates. Also have a hydrometer to test specif gravity.
To combat stuff in the water, im just doing water change, larger water change if needed. I really dont want to mess with chemicals because I hear it can really mess things up if donr incorrectly. Besides, I like natural better.

[Kingx]

Is it time to add clean up crew?
PH: 8
Alk: 300
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20
tank has been up now for 2 1/2 weeks. Already hit my spike and have lots of brown algey. Rock should be cured.

[Illuminati]

Yeah, just hermits and snails, save the shrimps for when the tank is more mature if you want any at all.

[Kingx]

Ok, today I added 2 turbos, 3 Nassarius, 2 blue legged, and 2 red legged hermits.

Fish update:
Biocolorgoby
Candy Basslet or 6-line wrasse.

Would a 6-like pick on the goby? It says they can be territorial in smaller tanks so not sure if he would do ok or not.