What would you tell somebody before they start buying first system?

Sk8r · 07/23/2007, 09:53 AM

Advice is good. Advice before one is neck-deep in quicksand is better. Thought it might be a good thread, to give some real basic 'Good Things To Think About' and even 'Neat Set-up Tricks'...before people go down the primrose path.

Tip #1.
If you really want to keep 'just fish', get the biggest tank you possibly can. Most common marine fish get huge. This is not freshwater: these fish are [pardon pun] scaled and muscled for the ocean, not a still water pond.

Tip #2. If you want to get an even bigger tank than you can afford, take a look at systems for sale in the Used Equipment section of "Forums" on Reef Central. Find one in your area and go look at it. Beware of buying at garage sales: tanks that were heavily medicated with freshwater medications are not for you.

Tip #3. You need live rock at 1 lb per gallon to run a modern saltwater tank, fish OR coral. Live sand, you can get, but plain dry aragonite will do. Don't get sold crushed coral. Budget for the rock. If your tank is huge, consider a layer of base rock, THEN the live rock atop it. It takes longer to 'cycle' but it's cheaper.

Tip #4. Use the best water on your first fillup. Yep, I know 120 gallon jugs from Walmart's machine is just a PITA, but that's what you need to do with a 100g tank and a 20g sump. Conditioned tap water will bequeath you months of problems. Consider getting a 200.00 or thereabouts ro/di filter [higher quality means longer between filter changes]---if you're going to spend a hundred on water on your fillup, and have to get 12 more gallons every week for your 10% water change, this pays off in a HURRY.

Tip #5. Small tanks are far, far, far, far harder than big tanks. Nanos are even harder. If you start learning on a nano, prepare to make micro decisions. Nanos started [successfully] as big-tank guys saying, "I bet I can parlay my expert knowledge into a micro-tank---bet I can keep it alive." Well, we know more now, and there's even nano-equipment now. But they're not for the faint-hearted.

Yes, some neos keep them beautifully, but they follow guidelines beautifully, too.

Tip #6. A sump/refugium is the best way to go with a reef [tank with corals]. That's a second tank nearly as big as your top one, with space for green growing things. The difference in stability is marvelous. I've done both sumpless and sump and would never be without a sump. Ever! Beautiful things! IF you have a sump, you'll find an RR tank is a very nice luxury. [ReefREady, meaning it's drilled and piped for a sump below.] You can drill your own tank if you have the right bit, good info [tempered glass shatters, and most tank bottoms are tempered] and nerves of steel. Then you have to fit the bulkheads and glue in/on a downflow box. There are HOB [hangonback] downflows. They're harder to manage than a builtin box.

Tip #6. A skimmer overpowered for the most stuffed condition of your reef OR fishtank will be one of THE most important pieces of equipment going. With a reef, I don't run a filter at all. Don't even own one. A FOWLR [fishonlyliverock] tank may use a filter to help the skimmer. My skimmer is rated for a 120 gallon tank and I have a 54g with a 30g sump. The more life you want in your tank, the bigger the skimmer needs to be.

Tip #7. Test kits: starting out, and just with fish, you need tests for nitrate/nitrite/ammonia, ph, temperature, and salinity. Get a refractometer and ph meter. That'll set you back about a hundred, but it can save your tank. Other salinity instruments lie like rugs. You need to be really, really right to do various jobs like acclimate your fish, change water on your tank---you'll use that refractometer at least once a week.

Tip #8. Run topless. These tanks have 2 submerged pumps and strong lights: they run way hot. Do not plan for lids. Take measures to keep your fish in [I have a 9" wide fake rim on my tank] and your lights off the water, but plan on a lot of evaporation. This means you continually have to supply fresh ro/di water to keep the salinity from rising by the hour. An auto topoff mechanism is simple, costs as little as 75.00, and will keep you from being tied to your tank. [Topoff by the tablespoon is one thing that makes nanos so hard to get right.] My 54 g tank evaporates over a gallon a day. [Another reason to own your own ro/di.] A fan can help out that rate during the summer. There are chillers for people who live in the tropics or subtropics.

Tip #9. Lights determine what you can keep. MH lights aren't the cadillac of lights---by that I mean, they aren't the universal best and everyone should have them. THere are various very good lights, and certain creatures like certain kinds of light, so MH, while the most expensive, may not be the best light for your tank.

Anybody?

Osmotic Shock · 07/23/2007, 10:19 AM

Tip # 10. Plan on spending alot of money. Probably double what you think it will cost you. Don't buy cheap equipment because it is what you can afford now and then have to upgrade it later.

Aquarist007 · 07/23/2007, 10:42 AM

big tip--spend at least three months on this web site before you buy---I didn't and I wish I had

techreef · 07/23/2007, 10:45 AM

#11 Spend time before you buy your tank thinking about and reading on the prettiest fishes you see and think you want to keep in your system. Chances are they grow 2" a year or need 6' of running room in their tanks in order to be healthy and display normal behavior patterns. I'm referring to rabbitfish and tangs in general here, but all fish are adapted to their own specific needs, and not all tanks can be all things to all fish. You'll do yourself a huge favor if you know something about the fish you'll eventually keep before you pull the financial trigger on your tank.

Grins · 07/23/2007, 10:58 AM

Read, read, read some more, and then go back and read some more.

steri · 07/23/2007, 11:04 AM

Don't skimp on the skimmer!

Grins · 07/23/2007, 11:06 AM

There is more than one way to be successful in this hobby. Don't jump on the first bit of information someone provides but rather take that information and research it and compare it to alternative methods to find what you think will work best for you.

conefree · 07/23/2007, 11:38 AM

Research, research, research. Don't skimp on equipment; you will end up buying the expensive stuff sooner or later. Better sooner than later to save you money in the long run.

Research possible livestock purchases BEFORE you buy them!

marduc · 07/23/2007, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by conefree
Research, research, research. Don't skimp on equipment; you will end up buying the expensive stuff sooner or later. Better sooner than later to save you money in the long run.

Research possible livestock purchases BEFORE you buy them!

That sums it up nicely. I researched things for months and months before getting started, even then over time I have spent a lot of money replacing/upgrading things that I already thought I had covered (skimmer, and RO/DI as already mentioned are 2 things to NOT skimp on!).

bertoni · 07/23/2007, 12:18 PM

11. Run away! Save yourself while you can! It's too late for me, but you can still have a life!

Well, okay,

11. Set up a quarantine tank when you set up your display. Learn how to run hypo.

Osmotic Shock · 07/23/2007, 12:22 PM

Good point- don't even start

Shagsbeard · 07/23/2007, 01:01 PM

Find people in your area that you can talk to... this website is great, but you need to get some personal experiences.

Get a budget and discuss it here with people. The really shaky "$20/gal" rule is sometimes bantered about, and is reasonable as a first approximation. If you have more experience, or patience you can cut this figure dramatically. I personally am at about "$35/gallon" but then I made some really mistakes.

Get ready for a year to two years before your tank is really ready to go. Sure, the "cycle" portion can take a month or even just a couple weeks, but your tank will be going through many changes over the first couple years.

Gwynhidwy · 07/23/2007, 01:04 PM

Expect that things will go wrong and plans may have to be changed, but that its probably not the end of the world.

I've had freshwater planted tanks for about 15 years, and fish only marine for about three. I researched for about six months before setting up my current reef tank and I STILL made mistakes and had things that I needed to change or upgrade from what I had planned. If a mistake happens or plans need to be changed, don't panic, don't stress, just deal with it and move on.

But maybe only stress cases like me need that advice.

WDWDen · 07/23/2007, 01:54 PM

Don't just buy whatevery your local fish store sells. I bought my skimmer there, it was the best they had. Now, I'm looking buying a real skimmer.

Also, be prepared to be confused! It seems like the more I read on here, the LESS I know! You get so many opinions on everything. Just remember, there is more than one way to do some things!

Great thread!

trigger111 · 07/23/2007, 01:58 PM

standard 55 gallon tanks really suck, don't buy one.

Sk8r · 07/23/2007, 03:12 PM

I have a 54 corner: scenic, has some limitations, mostly in the stand size. Always consider what you NEED to fit under the tank, vs how much you have room for. One alternative is an adjacent armoire. Another is sinking two hoses through the floor, and putting your sump and all that gear in the basement.
The advice: free your thinking from The Box that is the stand: there are ways to get beyond it. But you have to live with the furniture, and drilling your floor is probably pretty radical to some people [they're very little holes and the carpet covers them.]

One thing trigger111 reminds me: to be anything other than a multiple of a 50g means you have to do some math. Most dosages are given in terms of 50g. If you're 100g double it. 200 quadruple the dose. Etc. If you're a nano---be good at fractions.

ahullsb · 07/23/2007, 05:32 PM

Have patience! Realize that you won't have a reef tank that looks fully established like some pictures in these threads. It takes time....lots of it. If you need fish and corals, etc. in your tank as soon as possible, than this isn't a good hobby for you. It is much better, IMO, to setup your tank, and really think hard about the equipment you may need to get to make sure it runs properly. I often wonder if people would have FAR less problems in the beginning, if they would spend the first couple hundred dollars on a better skimmer, lighting, etc rather than "a couple tangs and angelfish." Or a "Dori and a Gil." Your first purchases SHOULD NOT be expensive and rare corals or fish. There is a steep learning curve in this hobby, start with something easy!

scowiii · 07/23/2007, 05:46 PM

Go bigger than what you want. Started a 29 wish I did a 40 or 50 gallon now. But have a 110 being planned for later though. Shhh. Don't tell the wife...

Duff Man · 07/23/2007, 06:03 PM

I've been in the hobby for a short time, but try to listen to your return pump before you buy.

07/23/2007, 12:18 PM	#10
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	11. Run away! Save yourself while you can! It's too late for me, but you can still have a life! Well, okay, 11. Set up a quarantine tank when you set up your display. Learn how to run hypo. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

07/23/2007, 03:12 PM	#16
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	I have a 54 corner: scenic, has some limitations, mostly in the stand size. Always consider what you NEED to fit under the tank, vs how much you have room for. One alternative is an adjacent armoire. Another is sinking two hoses through the floor, and putting your sump and all that gear in the basement. The advice: free your thinking from The Box that is the stand: there are ways to get beyond it. But you have to live with the furniture, and drilling your floor is probably pretty radical to some people [they're very little holes and the carpet covers them.] One thing trigger111 reminds me: to be anything other than a multiple of a 50g means you have to do some math. Most dosages are given in terms of 50g. If you're 100g double it. 200 quadruple the dose. Etc. If you're a nano---be good at fractions. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

07/23/2007, 05:32 PM	#17
ahullsb Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: sacramento, ca Posts: 2,729	Have patience! Realize that you won't have a reef tank that looks fully established like some pictures in these threads. It takes time....lots of it. If you need fish and corals, etc. in your tank as soon as possible, than this isn't a good hobby for you. It is much better, IMO, to setup your tank, and really think hard about the equipment you may need to get to make sure it runs properly. I often wonder if people would have FAR less problems in the beginning, if they would spend the first couple hundred dollars on a better skimmer, lighting, etc rather than "a couple tangs and angelfish." Or a "Dori and a Gil." Your first purchases SHOULD NOT be expensive and rare corals or fish. There is a steep learning curve in this hobby, start with something easy! __________________ Andy Sacramento, CA Current Tank Info: 55 gallon reef w/20 gallon sump/ER135/ 75 pounds of live rock, 4 in sandbed, 2 b&w ocellaris clowns, yellow watchman/pistol, rosy scaled wrasse, Mystery wrasse, Copperbanded Butterfly, Lighting 48" outer orbit 2 150 mh/ 4 t5 actinics

07/23/2007, 09:53 AM	#1
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	What would you tell somebody before they start buying first system? Advice is good. Advice before one is neck-deep in quicksand is better. Thought it might be a good thread, to give some real basic 'Good Things To Think About' and even 'Neat Set-up Tricks'...before people go down the primrose path. Tip #1. If you really want to keep 'just fish', get the biggest tank you possibly can. Most common marine fish get huge. This is not freshwater: these fish are [pardon pun] scaled and muscled for the ocean, not a still water pond. Tip #2. If you want to get an even bigger tank than you can afford, take a look at systems for sale in the Used Equipment section of "Forums" on Reef Central. Find one in your area and go look at it. Beware of buying at garage sales: tanks that were heavily medicated with freshwater medications are not for you. Tip #3. You need live rock at 1 lb per gallon to run a modern saltwater tank, fish OR coral. Live sand, you can get, but plain dry aragonite will do. Don't get sold crushed coral. Budget for the rock. If your tank is huge, consider a layer of base rock, THEN the live rock atop it. It takes longer to 'cycle' but it's cheaper. Tip #4. Use the best water on your first fillup. Yep, I know 120 gallon jugs from Walmart's machine is just a PITA, but that's what you need to do with a 100g tank and a 20g sump. Conditioned tap water will bequeath you months of problems. Consider getting a 200.00 or thereabouts ro/di filter [higher quality means longer between filter changes]---if you're going to spend a hundred on water on your fillup, and have to get 12 more gallons every week for your 10% water change, this pays off in a HURRY. Tip #5. Small tanks are far, far, far, far harder than big tanks. Nanos are even harder. If you start learning on a nano, prepare to make micro decisions. Nanos started [successfully] as big-tank guys saying, "I bet I can parlay my expert knowledge into a micro-tank---bet I can keep it alive." Well, we know more now, and there's even nano-equipment now. But they're not for the faint-hearted. Yes, some neos keep them beautifully, but they follow guidelines beautifully, too. Tip #6. A sump/refugium is the best way to go with a reef [tank with corals]. That's a second tank nearly as big as your top one, with space for green growing things. The difference in stability is marvelous. I've done both sumpless and sump and would never be without a sump. Ever! Beautiful things! IF you have a sump, you'll find an RR tank is a very nice luxury. [ReefREady, meaning it's drilled and piped for a sump below.] You can drill your own tank if you have the right bit, good info [tempered glass shatters, and most tank bottoms are tempered] and nerves of steel. Then you have to fit the bulkheads and glue in/on a downflow box. There are HOB [hangonback] downflows. They're harder to manage than a builtin box. Tip #6. A skimmer overpowered for the most stuffed condition of your reef OR fishtank will be one of THE most important pieces of equipment going. With a reef, I don't run a filter at all. Don't even own one. A FOWLR [fishonlyliverock] tank may use a filter to help the skimmer. My skimmer is rated for a 120 gallon tank and I have a 54g with a 30g sump. The more life you want in your tank, the bigger the skimmer needs to be. Tip #7. Test kits: starting out, and just with fish, you need tests for nitrate/nitrite/ammonia, ph, temperature, and salinity. Get a refractometer and ph meter. That'll set you back about a hundred, but it can save your tank. Other salinity instruments lie like rugs. You need to be really, really right to do various jobs like acclimate your fish, change water on your tank---you'll use that refractometer at least once a week. Tip #8. Run topless. These tanks have 2 submerged pumps and strong lights: they run way hot. Do not plan for lids. Take measures to keep your fish in [I have a 9" wide fake rim on my tank] and your lights off the water, but plan on a lot of evaporation. This means you continually have to supply fresh ro/di water to keep the salinity from rising by the hour. An auto topoff mechanism is simple, costs as little as 75.00, and will keep you from being tied to your tank. [Topoff by the tablespoon is one thing that makes nanos so hard to get right.] My 54 g tank evaporates over a gallon a day. [Another reason to own your own ro/di.] A fan can help out that rate during the summer. There are chillers for people who live in the tropics or subtropics. Tip #9. Lights determine what you can keep. MH lights aren't the cadillac of lights---by that I mean, they aren't the universal best and everyone should have them. THere are various very good lights, and certain creatures like certain kinds of light, so MH, while the most expensive, may not be the best light for your tank. Anybody? __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

07/23/2007, 10:19 AM	#2
Osmotic Shock Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 239	Tip # 10. Plan on spending alot of money. Probably double what you think it will cost you. Don't buy cheap equipment because it is what you can afford now and then have to upgrade it later.

07/23/2007, 10:42 AM	#3
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	big tip--spend at least three months on this web site before you buy---I didn't and I wish I had __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

07/23/2007, 10:45 AM	#4
techreef Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montclair, NJ Posts: 1,046	#11 Spend time before you buy your tank thinking about and reading on the prettiest fishes you see and think you want to keep in your system. Chances are they grow 2" a year or need 6' of running room in their tanks in order to be healthy and display normal behavior patterns. I'm referring to rabbitfish and tangs in general here, but all fish are adapted to their own specific needs, and not all tanks can be all things to all fish. You'll do yourself a huge favor if you know something about the fish you'll eventually keep before you pull the financial trigger on your tank.

07/23/2007, 10:58 AM	#5
Grins Registered Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 735	Read, read, read some more, and then go back and read some more. __________________ R.A.S.O.C. : Reef Aquarium Society of Charlotte Current Tank Info: 55g mixed reef

07/23/2007, 11:04 AM	#6
steri Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Aurora, IL. Posts: 2,361	Don't skimp on the skimmer! __________________ 220g: French Angel, Emperor Angel, Passer Anger, Blue Tang, Yellow Tang, Snowflake Moray Eel, Lunar Wrasse Current Tank Info: 220 with T5HO lighting. ETSS skimmer.

07/23/2007, 11:06 AM	#7
Grins Registered Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 735	There is more than one way to be successful in this hobby. Don't jump on the first bit of information someone provides but rather take that information and research it and compare it to alternative methods to find what you think will work best for you. __________________ R.A.S.O.C. : Reef Aquarium Society of Charlotte Current Tank Info: 55g mixed reef

07/23/2007, 11:38 AM	#8
conefree Gene Pool Lifeguard Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Downingtown, PA Posts: 758	Research, research, research. Don't skimp on equipment; you will end up buying the expensive stuff sooner or later. Better sooner than later to save you money in the long run. Research possible livestock purchases *BEFORE* you buy them! __________________ Chris "A Closed Mouth Gathers No Foot" - Unknown Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs. Current Tank Info: 120 gallon, Ecosystem 3612, 6X54 TEK light, Tunze Osmolator, Lifereef dual overflow all down

07/23/2007, 12:22 PM	#11
Osmotic Shock Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 239	Good point- don't even start

07/23/2007, 01:01 PM	#12
Shagsbeard Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Morro Bay, CA Posts: 2,143	Find people in your area that you can talk to... this website is great, but you need to get some personal experiences. Get a budget and discuss it here with people. The really shaky "$20/gal" rule is sometimes bantered about, and is reasonable as a first approximation. If you have more experience, or patience you can cut this figure dramatically. I personally am at about "$35/gallon" but then I made some really mistakes. Get ready for a year to two years before your tank is really ready to go. Sure, the "cycle" portion can take a month or even just a couple weeks, but your tank will be going through many changes over the first couple years.

07/23/2007, 01:04 PM	#13
Gwynhidwy Meat Popsicle Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,511	Expect that things will go wrong and plans may have to be changed, but that its probably not the end of the world. I've had freshwater planted tanks for about 15 years, and fish only marine for about three. I researched for about six months before setting up my current reef tank and I STILL made mistakes and had things that I needed to change or upgrade from what I had planned. If a mistake happens or plans need to be changed, don't panic, don't stress, just deal with it and move on. But maybe only stress cases like me need that advice.

07/23/2007, 01:54 PM	#14
WDWDen Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 243	Don't just buy whatevery your local fish store sells. I bought my skimmer there, it was the best they had. Now, I'm looking buying a real skimmer. Also, be prepared to be confused! It seems like the more I read on here, the LESS I know! You get so many opinions on everything. Just remember, there is more than one way to do some things! Great thread!

07/23/2007, 01:58 PM	#15
trigger111 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: IA Posts: 105	standard 55 gallon tanks really suck, don't buy one.

07/23/2007, 05:46 PM	#18
scowiii Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Nebraska Posts: 427	Go bigger than what you want. Started a 29 wish I did a 40 or 50 gallon now. But have a 110 being planned for later though. Shhh. Don't tell the wife...

07/23/2007, 06:03 PM	#19
Duff Man Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Chicago's far NW burbs Posts: 629	I've been in the hobby for a short time, but try to listen to your return pump before you buy.