Money down the drain???

agent007 · 08/06/2007, 10:20 PM

I was debating whether or not to get an RO/DI system or continue
using the water suppy I have now: Culligan filtered tap water and Amquel.

I know the benefits of an RO/DI system but I can't get over the fact that for every 4 gallons of tap water, I will only produce roughly 1 gallon of purified water. So for me to produce the 10 gallons of purfied water I would need for a partial water change, I would basically waste 30 gallons of water.

What can I do with 30 gallons in one day and not feel like I wasted it??

30 gallons on the lawn
No real way to deliver the water to the entire lawn: Throw buckets of water on it. Run a hose out of the basement (this where I was thinking of putting the RO/DI system) would require a pump to get up and out to the lawn. Do I need 30 gallons of water on my lawn in one day?

Use it for the plants
All the plants in and around the house do not need 30 gallons of water - not in one day

Use 30 gallons in quarantine tank
Will the 30 gallons have too much concencrated particulates? Will that cause algae blooms in my quarantine?

Direct it down the drain
Easy, but how much money am I wasting. I hate to waste things, especially money

This may seem elementry to some of you veterans out there. So what do you do with your excess water?

T Man · 08/06/2007, 10:30 PM

Lots of people use the wastewater for washing machines and me? I run the line to my front lawn- watering plants. Before you take the dive, you oughtta check the filtered water you are using now with a TDS meter. If you haven't observed and water quality issues with the Culligan water- like your post says.......................TinMan

agent007 · 08/06/2007, 10:38 PM

I have to admit I have not tested the current water I use. It probably is not the best quality and I really do believe that an RO/DI system can only improve my water quality. The only downside I have observed thus far is the algae blooms I get. I am checking other factors also, food, light, etc.
I figured water quality is a big factor also - enter the RO/DI idea.

But is it an RO/DI system really necessary? Is the execess water usage necessary? Ahhhh, I guess that's your question to me. If current TDS levels are acceptable then perhaps I do not need an RO/DI system??

spike78 · 08/07/2007, 12:01 AM

30 gallons isn't really that much when watering a yard or plants. Most rainwater collection barrels are 55 gallons and often people run sets of them for watering purposes. This might be a good option for storing the waste. Just run the waste line to a rain barrel and then run a trickle watering system off of that. Happy plants and happy you.

Reefbox · 08/07/2007, 12:08 AM

have u considered a Kati Ani system? Zero wasted water.

I do not have my unit yet but it will b here soon enough. I was tired of wasting that water , especially in the winter when the RO/DI wastes soooo much water.

agent007 · 08/14/2007, 09:36 PM

Yes, I'm up in the NE. Not much to water during the winter and early spring. What is a Kati Ani system? Do you have a link?

Artisan Corals · 09/11/2007, 05:20 AM

I distribute Kati Ani systems in North America. If you want more information on the available units, please contact me directly. I don't want to post the flyer online because it would seem like a sales pitch.

XSiVE · 09/11/2007, 07:06 AM

Culligan water is RO water, which is the same process of waste-water & good water, though they probably use the waste water for something else.

omacphe · 09/11/2007, 07:45 AM

Second the washing machine idea.

My RO/DI is set up in the laundry room and I just pull the waste line out from the wahing machine drain and drop it into the washing machine.

About 7 Gal of RO/DI and no "waste" water.

Cheers,

Owen

beaupierce · 09/11/2007, 08:14 AM

If you are using Culligan than you are setting yourself up for a huge problems. There is way too high ph and nitrate in that water. Your best bet would be to go to a LFS that makes water and buy it there, or do the RO/DI thing.
It really isn't that bad cost wise besides the intial investment. What does 30 gal cost? Maybe 2-4 dollars.
research it and then make your decision. Just please get away from that filtered Culligan!

JoeMomma · 09/11/2007, 08:28 AM

For the washing machine idea, do you just let your waste water pour into the washing maching until its full and leave it there till you are ready to do laundry? I don't own a washing machine yet (fish tank came first... priorities).

When you start the washing machine won't it fill its wash bin with water to start its cycle or does is bypass that step since the bin is already full?

amike5 · 09/11/2007, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoeMomma
When you start the washing machine won't it fill its wash bin with water to start its cycle or does is bypass that step since the bin is already full?

It would bypass the fill step.

der_wille_zur_macht · 09/11/2007, 08:38 AM

It checks the bin and won't add water if it's already there. If you find that you are filling up the machine faster than you need it, you can just turn it on near the end of the cycle (different controls for different machines, but you should be able to figure it out) and it'll pump out the water.

A question for the OP - if "waste of money" is your concern, consider the total cost per gallon to create your own RO/DI vs buying it from someone else. If you're careful about your components, I bet it'll be less $$ wasted to make it yourself vs buying the same quality from someone else.

If you're seriously concerned only about water waste, then you can just run a DI-only system. The RO membrane is the component that wastes the water, pushing water through the prefilters and then directly into the DI resin will produce high quality results without any waste, but at an increased cost - DI resin can be pricey!

LindaQ · 09/11/2007, 08:43 AM

I have mine draining into the A/C drain pipe.So it helps keep that line clear of alge & it drains into a garden bed on the side of my house.

Jay_1966 · 09/11/2007, 08:44 AM

Has anyone attempted to pipe the waste water back into the very plumbing the unit pulls the water out of? I would think it would be possible unless there is an issue with psi or backflow.

amike5 · 09/11/2007, 08:48 AM

Possible, but you would need expensive equipment and probably a plumber to do that. The pump alone would run you at least $400.

IslandCrow · 09/11/2007, 11:06 AM

If money is the only thing you're worried about wasting, I'd stop worrying right now. Unless you have some seriously high water charges there, you'll still be saving money. Also, I'm just guessing, but it doesn't seem like my reject ratio is as bad as 4:1. . .I've never measured it, but it seems closer to 2:1.

That aside, I just have my waste water run directly to my garden. If you don't have a garden, go out to your yard. As many others have said, 30g of water really isn't that much in the big scheme of things. Skip one shower a week, and I think you'll make up for it.

wooden_reefer · 09/11/2007, 11:56 AM

Having a very long waste water tubing to water plants probably reduces the efficiency of the RO, but because the flow rate is very low, like a few GPH, the frictional loss (which creates the back pressure) in even 50 feet of 1/4" diameter tubing is small. I think it is possible to water plants with wastewater from a RO without greatly reducing its efficiency.

I plan to automate water change in freshwater tanks for discuses using RO water. I need to think of a way to use both the RO wastewater and tank water to water my garden. I think in the long run I may indeed save some money.

I may build a water tank to store the RO waste and tank water and get a water pump to water my plant. The pump only runs when I water my plant. A 24 VAC coil relay activated by ordinary sprinkler timer will entirely automate the process. May be a couple of hundred dollars investment up front, payback in a couple of years or so. I think I will save $5 or more a month. In a few years it will add up.

For someone with just one 100 gal reef tank, the investment would likely not payoff quickly enough.

JoeMomma · 09/11/2007, 12:50 PM

Dumb question: How do you dump your waste water into your washer if its side loading?

I know there is a regular intake on the back where you would attach your water supply but I don't think that is made with an adapter for a small RO waste water tube.

der_wille_zur_macht · 09/11/2007, 01:08 PM

Joe, just capture the waste in a basin and pump/drain it to the side-loading washer once it has clothes in it.

Quote:

Having a very long waste water tubing to water plants probably reduces the efficiency of the RO,

If this was a real concern for anyone, you could just replace/adjust the restriction valve on the waste line to account for the additional backpressure due to the long line.

IslandCrow · 09/11/2007, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Having a very long waste water tubing to water plants probably reduces the efficiency of the RO

This doesn't reduce my efficiency at all. The waste line out of the RO unit isn't any longer than what came with the unit. It simply drains into a garden hose that gravity feeds the water to the garden. Since it simply drains into the hose (not form fit) and doesn't "pump" into it, there is no back pressure.

MalHavoc · 09/11/2007, 01:48 PM

A couple of other options:

1. in the winter, you can heat your water up a bit by running your inlet hose (the line that goes from the tap to your first filter) through a bucket with a heater in it. Just get a really long length of tubing and coil it in the bucket to get it up to 70 degrees. It really helps.

2. use a booster pump to increase your water pressure. Really cuts down on wasted water, especially in the winter.

3. Go with a straight DI system. Kent makes one. You'll go through DI cartridges faster, but there is zero waste.

4. Get more plants

5. Get a smaller tank. I downsized from a 180 Oceanic with a 50 gallon sump to a 29 gallon Aquapod. My water usage really cut back as well

rsw686 · 09/11/2007, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MalHavoc
A couple of other options:
3. Go with a straight DI system. Kent makes one. You'll go through DI cartridges faster, but there is zero waste.

You'll waste more money in DI cartridges then you will in waste water.

MalHavoc · 09/11/2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rsw686
You'll waste more money in DI cartridges then you will in waste water.

I guess that depends on how good your tap water is. My tap water here is only about 60-80 TDS to start with. I used to be on a well, where it was over a 1000.

wooden_reefer · 09/11/2007, 03:29 PM

Most people want to avoid hard water for washing clothes.

Added length of wastewater tubing will decrease the efficiency of the RO unit. The pressure drop that the RO relies on will be decreased. This is a little like the catalytic converter that blocks the exhaust of your car.

I think not by much if not excessively long as the flow is so slow that the frictional loss is minimal.

08/06/2007, 10:20 PM	#1
agent007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Joisee, US Posts: 200	Money down the drain??? I was debating whether or not to get an RO/DI system or continue using the water suppy I have now: Culligan filtered tap water and Amquel. I know the benefits of an RO/DI system but I can't get over the fact that for every 4 gallons of tap water, I will only produce roughly 1 gallon of purified water. So for me to produce the 10 gallons of purfied water I would need for a partial water change, I would basically waste 30 gallons of water. What can I do with 30 gallons in one day and not feel like I wasted it?? 30 gallons on the lawn No real way to deliver the water to the entire lawn: Throw buckets of water on it. Run a hose out of the basement (this where I was thinking of putting the RO/DI system) would require a pump to get up and out to the lawn. Do I need 30 gallons of water on my lawn in one day? Use it for the plants All the plants in and around the house do not need 30 gallons of water - not in one day Use 30 gallons in quarantine tank Will the 30 gallons have too much concencrated particulates? Will that cause algae blooms in my quarantine? Direct it down the drain Easy, but how much money am I wasting. I hate to waste things, especially money This may seem elementry to some of you veterans out there. So what do you do with your excess water? Last edited by agent007; 08/06/2007 at 10:30 PM.

08/07/2007, 12:08 AM	#5
Reefbox Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Butler, PA Posts: 1,045	have u considered a Kati Ani system? Zero wasted water. I do not have my unit yet but it will b here soon enough. I was tired of wasting that water , especially in the winter when the RO/DI wastes soooo much water. __________________ Jason

09/11/2007, 08:38 AM	#13
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	It checks the bin and won't add water if it's already there. If you find that you are filling up the machine faster than you need it, you can just turn it on near the end of the cycle (different controls for different machines, but you should be able to figure it out) and it'll pump out the water. A question for the OP - if "waste of money" is your concern, consider the total cost per gallon to create your own RO/DI vs buying it from someone else. If you're careful about your components, I bet it'll be less $$ wasted to make it yourself vs buying the same quality from someone else. If you're seriously concerned only about water waste, then you can just run a DI-only system. The RO membrane is the component that wastes the water, pushing water through the prefilters and then directly into the DI resin will produce high quality results without any waste, but at an increased cost - DI resin can be pricey! __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

09/11/2007, 08:44 AM	#15
Jay_1966 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 68	Has anyone attempted to pipe the waste water back into the very plumbing the unit pulls the water out of? I would think it would be possible unless there is an issue with psi or backflow. __________________ Jay Tank Status - All Parameters Good, 6 line wrasse (only fish)- Started 6/07 Current Tank Info: Red Sea Max - no mods, & the skimmer works well on mine! Yay

09/11/2007, 11:06 AM	#17
IslandCrow Reef Monkey Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rockledge, Fl Posts: 5,759	If money is the only thing you're worried about wasting, I'd stop worrying right now. Unless you have some seriously high water charges there, you'll still be saving money. Also, I'm just guessing, but it doesn't seem like my reject ratio is as bad as 4:1. . .I've never measured it, but it seems closer to 2:1. That aside, I just have my waste water run directly to my garden. If you don't have a garden, go out to your yard. As many others have said, 30g of water really isn't that much in the big scheme of things. Skip one shower a week, and I think you'll make up for it. __________________ All opinions in the above message should be taken with 35 ppt salt. -Mike C. Current Tank Info: I have a reef screen saver on my phone, does that count?

08/06/2007, 10:30 PM	#2
T Man ~PPPPPPP~ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Emerald City Posts: 1,045	Lots of people use the wastewater for washing machines and me? I run the line to my front lawn- watering plants. Before you take the dive, you oughtta check the filtered water you are using now with a TDS meter. If you haven't observed and water quality issues with the Culligan water- like your post says.......................TinMan

08/06/2007, 10:38 PM	#3
agent007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Joisee, US Posts: 200	I have to admit I have not tested the current water I use. It probably is not the best quality and I really do believe that an RO/DI system can only improve my water quality. The only downside I have observed thus far is the algae blooms I get. I am checking other factors also, food, light, etc. I figured water quality is a big factor also - enter the RO/DI idea. But is it an RO/DI system really necessary? Is the execess water usage necessary? Ahhhh, I guess that's your question to me. If current TDS levels are acceptable then perhaps I do not need an RO/DI system??

08/07/2007, 12:01 AM	#4
spike78 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 420	30 gallons isn't really that much when watering a yard or plants. Most rainwater collection barrels are 55 gallons and often people run sets of them for watering purposes. This might be a good option for storing the waste. Just run the waste line to a rain barrel and then run a trickle watering system off of that. Happy plants and happy you.

08/14/2007, 09:36 PM	#6
agent007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Joisee, US Posts: 200	Yes, I'm up in the NE. Not much to water during the winter and early spring. What is a Kati Ani system? Do you have a link?

09/11/2007, 05:20 AM	#7
Artisan Corals Registered Member. Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 25	I distribute Kati Ani systems in North America. If you want more information on the available units, please contact me directly. I don't want to post the flyer online because it would seem like a sales pitch.

09/11/2007, 07:06 AM	#8
XSiVE Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Waterford, MI Posts: 790	Culligan water is RO water, which is the same process of waste-water & good water, though they probably use the waste water for something else.

09/11/2007, 07:45 AM	#9
omacphe Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Mississauga, ON Posts: 32	Second the washing machine idea. My RO/DI is set up in the laundry room and I just pull the waste line out from the wahing machine drain and drop it into the washing machine. About 7 Gal of RO/DI and no "waste" water. Cheers, Owen

09/11/2007, 08:14 AM	#10
beaupierce Moved On Join Date: May 2004 Location: Nipomo, CA Posts: 419	If you are using Culligan than you are setting yourself up for a huge problems. There is way too high ph and nitrate in that water. Your best bet would be to go to a LFS that makes water and buy it there, or do the RO/DI thing. It really isn't that bad cost wise besides the intial investment. What does 30 gal cost? Maybe 2-4 dollars. research it and then make your decision. Just please get away from that filtered Culligan!

09/11/2007, 08:28 AM	#11
JoeMomma Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 619	For the washing machine idea, do you just let your waste water pour into the washing maching until its full and leave it there till you are ready to do laundry? I don't own a washing machine yet (fish tank came first... priorities). When you start the washing machine won't it fill its wash bin with water to start its cycle or does is bypass that step since the bin is already full?

09/11/2007, 08:43 AM	#14
LindaQ Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Wesley Chapel, Florida Posts: 60	I have mine draining into the A/C drain pipe.So it helps keep that line clear of alge & it drains into a garden bed on the side of my house.

09/11/2007, 08:48 AM	#16
amike5 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 724	Possible, but you would need expensive equipment and probably a plumber to do that. The pump alone would run you at least $400.

09/11/2007, 11:56 AM	#18
wooden_reefer Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4,670	Having a very long waste water tubing to water plants probably reduces the efficiency of the RO, but because the flow rate is very low, like a few GPH, the frictional loss (which creates the back pressure) in even 50 feet of 1/4" diameter tubing is small. I think it is possible to water plants with wastewater from a RO without greatly reducing its efficiency. I plan to automate water change in freshwater tanks for discuses using RO water. I need to think of a way to use both the RO wastewater and tank water to water my garden. I think in the long run I may indeed save some money. I may build a water tank to store the RO waste and tank water and get a water pump to water my plant. The pump only runs when I water my plant. A 24 VAC coil relay activated by ordinary sprinkler timer will entirely automate the process. May be a couple of hundred dollars investment up front, payback in a couple of years or so. I think I will save $5 or more a month. In a few years it will add up. For someone with just one 100 gal reef tank, the investment would likely not payoff quickly enough. Last edited by wooden_reefer; 09/11/2007 at 12:02 PM.

09/11/2007, 12:50 PM	#19
JoeMomma Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 619	Dumb question: How do you dump your waste water into your washer if its side loading? I know there is a regular intake on the back where you would attach your water supply but I don't think that is made with an adapter for a small RO waste water tube.

09/11/2007, 01:48 PM	#22
MalHavoc Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 10,850	A couple of other options: 1. in the winter, you can heat your water up a bit by running your inlet hose (the line that goes from the tap to your first filter) through a bucket with a heater in it. Just get a really long length of tubing and coil it in the bucket to get it up to 70 degrees. It really helps. 2. use a booster pump to increase your water pressure. Really cuts down on wasted water, especially in the winter. 3. Go with a straight DI system. Kent makes one. You'll go through DI cartridges faster, but there is zero waste. 4. Get more plants 5. Get a smaller tank. I downsized from a 180 Oceanic with a 50 gallon sump to a 29 gallon Aquapod. My water usage really cut back as well __________________ Jason "Empathy, he once had decided, must be limited to herbivores or anyhow omnivores who could depart from a meat diet. Because, ultimately, the empathic gift blurred the boundaries between hunter and victim, between the successful and the defeated." -- Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, Philip K Dick

09/11/2007, 03:29 PM	#25
wooden_reefer Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4,670	Most people want to avoid hard water for washing clothes. Added length of wastewater tubing will decrease the efficiency of the RO unit. The pressure drop that the RO relies on will be decreased. This is a little like the catalytic converter that blocks the exhaust of your car. I think not by much if not excessively long as the flow is so slow that the frictional loss is minimal.