Lighting issues....need another opinion!!

cmejaf30 · 09/23/2007, 06:49 PM

Ok so here's the deal. I'm working on setting up a new 55 (normal dimensions) with a 20 gallon refug and 300W heater. No skimmer as of yet. I'm planning on having about 45-55 lbs of live rock along with a 3" sand bed. All said and done, I'd like to be able to do anything with this setup (in regards to corals). My question refers to the lighting setup. I've had two different opinions from guys at the LFS and need another one.

Must I have metal halide lights if I'd like to do SPS corals? Are metal halides a necessity for any specific type of coral? Could I get away with about 220W of PC lighting? I'm thinkin about going with this system:

2 x 65W 12000K
2 x 65W actinic
4 x blue moon LED for night effect.

So like I said, would this system prevent me from doing any specific corals/species? I'd like to get away with this for the cost but if it's absolutely necessary or really worth the investment then I might think about steppin up to the MH. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

kau_cinta_ku · 09/23/2007, 06:57 PM

not nessasary to have MH for SPS but I wouldn't go with PC's. go with a good quality T5HO setup and you'll be fine. an Icecap 4-54watt setup will work perfect.

EdKruzel · 09/23/2007, 07:03 PM

To Reef Central

You can use the PC's, however I'd agree that T-5's would be better. PC's need to be exchanged about every 6mths with normal use and T-5's are good for about 18mths.

cmejaf30 · 09/23/2007, 07:15 PM

ok thanks for the quick replies. Now another question based on those responses:

what are T 5's? How are they different from Power Compacts? Does anyone have a good link that explains the difference or where I could get a nice setup of T-5's?

Thanks again!

GL · 09/23/2007, 07:27 PM

Tx represents the size in diameter of the bulb in 1/8 increments.

T5's are 5/8 of an inch around. T8 is 1".

If using T5's make sure you get a setup where there is an individual reflector for each bulb.

T5's are usually the length of the tank unless you have a 6' or longer tank, then it would be multiple sets across the tank.

You should scan thru the T5 Q&A thread here on these forums. You can get some great info there.

jadeguppy · 09/23/2007, 07:28 PM

Look through the sponsor pages, many sell t5's. The name refers to the diameter of the bulb. They are small diameter bulbs that came in many light spectrum ranges and have a deeper water penetration than pc bulbs. Unlike cp bulbs, they do not lose light by shining on the other portion of the bulb. It is also possible to buy or install a fixture that contains individual reflectors for each bulb. This will help maximize how much of the light being produced actually shines on the corals. T5's also allow you to have actinic bulbs and higher light spectrum bulbs to simulate dawna nd dusk and to give a bluer look to the tank which can help bring out the colors in the corals. Your lfs may not have mentioned them because they probably don't carry them. I only know of 1 store in the three counties in the area that carries t5's. The other stores refuse to because they don't want to support another type of bulb. They actually appeared to get upset when I asked if they carry them.

cmejaf30 · 09/23/2007, 07:44 PM

should my lighting run the entire length of my tank? i.e. for my 55 gallon, is it necessary that I get a lighting fixture that is 48" in length. I'm not ruling out the MH's but the ones that i find in 48" length are like 480W...waaaay too much power for my tank. any suggestions would be great. Thanks!!

tripinpn01 · 09/23/2007, 10:23 PM

my only advice is DO NOT GET PC's! you will pay for it in the long run. i think majority of the people started out with pc's only to upgrade to t5's or MH. Personally, i love the look and shimmer of my MH. it looks really natural and soothing. and yes, go to the lighting forums to answer your questions. pc's give off way too much heat and do not penetrate enough, especially for a 55g tank.

Mavrk · 09/23/2007, 10:35 PM

Don't go PC. My LFS tried to sell me what seems like the same configuration you are looking at. They kept insisting they were great. Do not fall for it.

I went with T5 retro fits from ReefGeek. I recently asked about keeping corals and got some very good responses about T5 and MH advantages/disadvantages:

My T5 Thread

You should check it out.

sprinj76 · 09/23/2007, 10:58 PM

Wow when did pc lights get such a bad rap??

I know my 20-gallon long is only 12 inches deep and thatâ€™s why my PC lights work out so well. Is it just because they aren't good for corals?? I would agree in this scenario that PC's might not be enough and a T5 setup would be better suited since you would like to be able to keep any of the corals (even the high light req. ones).

Randall_James · 09/23/2007, 10:58 PM

Technically speaking PC's are in fact T5's.. The difference is that PCs "loop" back on themselves so that all the electricity is piped in one side of the bulb (much simplified wiring). However this reduces the efficiency of the reflectors (nothing is free). Also the life span of PC's and T5s from all I have found are all but identical as far as light loss and spectrum shift goes.

That said, the straight T5 is a better investment IMO if you are not going to use VHO or MH

EdKruzel · 09/24/2007, 09:58 AM

Randell,
Both are florescent but made completely different and have an incredible difference in output. Everything I have from the lighting forum shows a long life span before a 20% reduction in output (15-18mths) as compared to PC's with about 6mths.

Can you post where you found your info?

Thanx...

papagimp · 09/24/2007, 10:47 AM

I agree with the majority of these comments, don't get the PC's. While you don't have to have MH's for a nice SPS tank, you probably won't be able to keep an sps tank with those lights listed. 4 x 65w on a 55g and you could keep a few LPS along with many softies and leathers, and you'll need to know the species your putting in there, cause many won't recieve enough lighting.
and btw, 4 x 65w PC is 260watts

and still not enough IMO.

I"d also make sure to have a skimmer going if you want to be able to keep whatever you want. Many sps are very sensitive to poor water quality and won't fair as well without a decent form of nutrient exportation.

And more personally, I'd recommend more live rock than 45-55lbs. 55lbs would be the bare minimum I'd run with the bare minimum livestock.

to sprinj76, PC's really don't have a bad rap, it's just a matter of what you can do with em. If you were to keep a softie/leather tank, they'd work out just fine. Unfortuantly too many of us upgrade and change our coral preferences too often and will wind up having to upgrade them later on anyways. My first 55g was using a similar light setup to what was listed in the orginal post and the tank looked great, but i was maxed out on the types of corals i could keep and couldn't get any of the nicer colored sps i wanted, so had to upgrade. luckily i thought ahead of time and went with enough T5's to last through a couple more upgrades ;D

EdKruzel · 09/24/2007, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by papagimp
And more personally, I'd recommend more live rock than 45-55lbs. 55lbs would be the bare minimum I'd run with the bare minimum livestock.

Most tanks have far too much rock unless you choose to go bare-bottom; a 2'' sand bed has far more surface area for bacteria than if you were to fill the entire tank all the way to the rim with LR. When it comes to an SPS tank smaller rubble piles and/or extending ledges are far more practical and natural looking than a reef wall of rock. Many shark exhibits rely on sand for biological support; Richard Harker's 2000gal monster has 4 or 5 small rubble piles that were covered with SPS frags and allowed to grow and expand larger than the base they grow upon. It now provides natural coral crevices within the branches as a shelter for fish.

Randall_James · 09/24/2007, 09:36 PM

PC's operate at about 89% of the output efficiency of T5's of equal wattage and the losses are due to the "loop back" of the T5 tube on the PC bulb.

I got this from a university study and will have to find the links again (has been some time since this discussion was posted)

Randall_James · 09/24/2007, 09:50 PM

I can not find my links but did find one of the screen shots I saved with comparisons on bulbs. (attached doc file)

I will try again tomorrow to see where I pulled this data

09/23/2007, 06:49 PM	#1
cmejaf30 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bloomington, IN Posts: 186	Lighting issues....need another opinion!! Ok so here's the deal. I'm working on setting up a new 55 (normal dimensions) with a 20 gallon refug and 300W heater. No skimmer as of yet. I'm planning on having about 45-55 lbs of live rock along with a 3" sand bed. All said and done, I'd like to be able to do anything with this setup (in regards to corals). My question refers to the lighting setup. I've had two different opinions from guys at the LFS and need another one. Must I have metal halide lights if I'd like to do SPS corals? Are metal halides a necessity for any specific type of coral? Could I get away with about 220W of PC lighting? I'm thinkin about going with this system: 2 x 65W 12000K 2 x 65W actinic 4 x blue moon LED for night effect. So like I said, would this system prevent me from doing any specific corals/species? I'd like to get away with this for the cost but if it's absolutely necessary or really worth the investment then I might think about steppin up to the MH. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!! __________________ ~Adam Loving a hobby where there are few absolute right answers, many ways of doing things, a lot of good advice and, after all's said and done, a few ppm can cost you a whole lotta dough!! Current Tank Info: 55 gallon w/ 20 gallon refug...MAG 9.5 return, 3 Rio 120 powerheads in DT, 300W heater. 2x96w T5 lights (12K and actinic), 70lbs sand, 65lbs live rock...29 FO right now that will remain up and running and act as my quarantine tank.

09/23/2007, 07:03 PM	#3
EdKruzel Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 7,384	*To Reef Central* You can use the PC's, however I'd agree that T-5's would be better. PC's need to be exchanged about every 6mths with normal use and T-5's are good for about 18mths. __________________ When you find yourself in "Deep Water" it's best to keep your mouth shut! Current Tank Info: 65RR Cube Mixed Reef

09/23/2007, 07:15 PM	#4
cmejaf30 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bloomington, IN Posts: 186	ok thanks for the quick replies. Now another question based on those responses: what are T 5's? How are they different from Power Compacts? Does anyone have a good link that explains the difference or where I could get a nice setup of T-5's? Thanks again! __________________ ~Adam Loving a hobby where there are few absolute right answers, many ways of doing things, a lot of good advice and, after all's said and done, a few ppm can cost you a whole lotta dough!! Current Tank Info: 55 gallon w/ 20 gallon refug...MAG 9.5 return, 3 Rio 120 powerheads in DT, 300W heater. 2x96w T5 lights (12K and actinic), 70lbs sand, 65lbs live rock...29 FO right now that will remain up and running and act as my quarantine tank.

09/23/2007, 07:27 PM	#5
GL Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: NE Pa Posts: 921	Tx represents the size in diameter of the bulb in 1/8 increments. T5's are 5/8 of an inch around. T8 is 1". If using T5's make sure you get a setup where there is an individual reflector for each bulb. T5's are usually the length of the tank unless you have a 6' or longer tank, then it would be multiple sets across the tank. You should scan thru the T5 Q&A thread here on these forums. You can get some great info there. __________________ Life shouldn't be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, but rather to skid in sideways, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!' Current Tank Info: 90 AGA, 30 gal sump, 6 x 54w T5, ER cs8-1

09/23/2007, 07:44 PM	#7
cmejaf30 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bloomington, IN Posts: 186	should my lighting run the entire length of my tank? i.e. for my 55 gallon, is it necessary that I get a lighting fixture that is 48" in length. I'm not ruling out the MH's but the ones that i find in 48" length are like 480W...waaaay too much power for my tank. any suggestions would be great. Thanks!! __________________ ~Adam Loving a hobby where there are few absolute right answers, many ways of doing things, a lot of good advice and, after all's said and done, a few ppm can cost you a whole lotta dough!! Current Tank Info: 55 gallon w/ 20 gallon refug...MAG 9.5 return, 3 Rio 120 powerheads in DT, 300W heater. 2x96w T5 lights (12K and actinic), 70lbs sand, 65lbs live rock...29 FO right now that will remain up and running and act as my quarantine tank.

09/23/2007, 06:57 PM	#2
kau_cinta_ku Moved On Join Date: May 2005 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,669	not nessasary to have MH for SPS but I wouldn't go with PC's. go with a good quality T5HO setup and you'll be fine. an Icecap 4-54watt setup will work perfect.

09/23/2007, 07:28 PM	#6
jadeguppy Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: nw Florida Posts: 2,611	Look through the sponsor pages, many sell t5's. The name refers to the diameter of the bulb. They are small diameter bulbs that came in many light spectrum ranges and have a deeper water penetration than pc bulbs. Unlike cp bulbs, they do not lose light by shining on the other portion of the bulb. It is also possible to buy or install a fixture that contains individual reflectors for each bulb. This will help maximize how much of the light being produced actually shines on the corals. T5's also allow you to have actinic bulbs and higher light spectrum bulbs to simulate dawna nd dusk and to give a bluer look to the tank which can help bring out the colors in the corals. Your lfs may not have mentioned them because they probably don't carry them. I only know of 1 store in the three counties in the area that carries t5's. The other stores refuse to because they don't want to support another type of bulb. They actually appeared to get upset when I asked if they carry them.

09/23/2007, 10:23 PM	#8
tripinpn01 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: oc Posts: 786	my only advice is DO NOT GET PC's! you will pay for it in the long run. i think majority of the people started out with pc's only to upgrade to t5's or MH. Personally, i love the look and shimmer of my MH. it looks really natural and soothing. and yes, go to the lighting forums to answer your questions. pc's give off way too much heat and do not penetrate enough, especially for a 55g tank.

09/23/2007, 10:35 PM	#9
Mavrk Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: California - South Bay Area Posts: 2,775	Don't go PC. My LFS tried to sell me what seems like the same configuration you are looking at. They kept insisting they were great. Do not fall for it. I went with T5 retro fits from ReefGeek. I recently asked about keeping corals and got some very good responses about T5 and MH advantages/disadvantages: My T5 Thread You should check it out.

09/23/2007, 10:58 PM	#10
sprinj76 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: WI Posts: 495	Wow when did pc lights get such a bad rap?? I know my 20-gallon long is only 12 inches deep and thatâ€™s why my PC lights work out so well. Is it just because they aren't good for corals?? I would agree in this scenario that PC's might not be enough and a T5 setup would be better suited since you would like to be able to keep any of the corals (even the high light req. ones).

09/23/2007, 10:58 PM	#11
Randall_James Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,727	Technically speaking PC's are in fact T5's.. The difference is that PCs "loop" back on themselves so that all the electricity is piped in one side of the bulb (much simplified wiring). However this reduces the efficiency of the reflectors (nothing is free). Also the life span of PC's and T5s from all I have found are all but identical as far as light loss and spectrum shift goes. That said, the straight T5 is a better investment IMO if you are not going to use VHO or MH __________________ "It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear"

09/24/2007, 09:58 AM	#12
EdKruzel Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 7,384	Randell, Both are florescent but made completely different and have an incredible difference in output. Everything I have from the lighting forum shows a long life span before a 20% reduction in output (15-18mths) as compared to PC's with about 6mths. Can you post where you found your info? Thanx... __________________ When you find yourself in "Deep Water" it's best to keep your mouth shut! Current Tank Info: 65RR Cube Mixed Reef

09/24/2007, 10:47 AM	#13
papagimp COMAS Rocks! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 8,185 Blog Entries: 2	I agree with the majority of these comments, don't get the PC's. While you don't have to have MH's for a nice SPS tank, you probably won't be able to keep an sps tank with those lights listed. 4 x 65w on a 55g and you could keep a few LPS along with many softies and leathers, and you'll need to know the species your putting in there, cause many won't recieve enough lighting. and btw, 4 x 65w PC is 260watts and still not enough IMO. I"d also make sure to have a skimmer going if you want to be able to keep whatever you want. Many sps are very sensitive to poor water quality and won't fair as well without a decent form of nutrient exportation. And more personally, I'd recommend more live rock than 45-55lbs. 55lbs would be the bare minimum I'd run with the bare minimum livestock. to sprinj76, PC's really don't have a bad rap, it's just a matter of what you can do with em. If you were to keep a softie/leather tank, they'd work out just fine. Unfortuantly too many of us upgrade and change our coral preferences too often and will wind up having to upgrade them later on anyways. My first 55g was using a similar light setup to what was listed in the orginal post and the tank looked great, but i was maxed out on the types of corals i could keep and couldn't get any of the nicer colored sps i wanted, so had to upgrade. luckily i thought ahead of time and went with enough T5's to last through a couple more upgrades ;D __________________ 58g Softie & 75g Stoney Member, Central Oklahoma Marine Aquarium Society Current Tank Info: 58g Mixed Reef Project - Started June 2011

09/24/2007, 09:36 PM	#15
Randall_James Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,727	PC's operate at about 89% of the output efficiency of T5's of equal wattage and the losses are due to the "loop back" of the T5 tube on the PC bulb. I got this from a university study and will have to find the links again (has been some time since this discussion was posted) __________________ "It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear"