Need Help!! Please Help me!!

realest · 09/23/2007, 11:15 PM

I am in the process of setting up a refugium tank for my 55Gal tank.

I have already chose a tank and overflow box and everything needed.

The only thing that is stopping me is, which submersible pump do i use for the return water?

I am setting up a sump base refugium tank. The overflow box i am getting is rated up to 300gph.

If anyone can direct me to get the right submersible return pump. That was be great.

Thank you!!

Randall_James · 09/23/2007, 11:18 PM

sump flow should be 3 to 5X system capacity, so in your case 150-250Gph. On the main page of the site is a headloss calculator that you can use to figure out the pump.

I have a Rio 2500HP I run on my 60G with a 5' head and it works pretty quietly. Probably about the same pump you need

coast2coast7390 · 09/23/2007, 11:23 PM

i have no clue what my overflow is rated for but i have a rio 2100 on my 30

realest · 09/23/2007, 11:29 PM

Hey Randall_James,

The Rio 2500HP is rated as 748GPH. Are you pretty sure that will work for me?

Here is the link!! Please help me guys!!

realest · 09/23/2007, 11:29 PM

Opps forgot the link!!

here it is, sorry!!

http://www.marineandreef.com/shoppro/rio-pumps-top.html

Randall_James · 09/23/2007, 11:39 PM

You have to keep in mind the head loss. Pumping losses drop this pump to about half that Head loss results

Unrestricted flow is substantial yes, but after you add 5' of water on top, it drops big time.

realest · 09/23/2007, 11:40 PM

So the Rio2500 is what you think would work for me?

Randall_James · 09/23/2007, 11:49 PM

You need to figure out

Head heights (how far UP the water needs to pump) this is the water level in the sump to the very highest point in the return plumbing or the water level in the display tank (which ever is highest)

Pipe size for the return line

number of elbows or bends in pipe

Those numbers will dictate what pump you require.

ahullsb · 09/24/2007, 11:21 AM

An overflow of 300 gph is pushing it in my opinion, even with the rio 2500. I use that pump, and use a CPR-100 overflow with it. I wouldn't recommend a CPR overflow anyway. Lifereef sounds like the way to go. I think that with head loss, the Rio 2500 is probably pushing in the 300-400 gph range. I would make sure that your overflow can handle more than that.

realest · 09/24/2007, 06:44 PM

So lifereef overflow would be better then the cpr overflow?

Anyone got into of which one is better?

Also, for example. The overflow box is rated at 300gph, so i should get a return pump of 600gph? Would that be the right math?

I am just worry that my pump is pumping too fast (faster then the water could get to it) or in reverse (overflow flowing too much and the return pump not pumping fast enough).

Someone please be kind and explain to me how this works. I am a newbie!

fio1022 · 09/24/2007, 07:07 PM

you might want to get an overated pump.You can tee off for your refugium or other equipment(skimmer,carbon,phosban,etc).I'm a believer in that you can't have too much flow.
My first tank was a 55, I drilled 2 one inch drains and was using a mag 12.

realest · 09/24/2007, 07:09 PM

thanks the the input, but i am putting th sump in the refugium. So really. I don't have a place to diverter the water to. Also, if i get a overated pump, what will happen if the pump is pumping faster then my overflow (the water running to refugium?

Thanks again!!

bertoni · 09/24/2007, 07:11 PM

No, the other way for the overflow box... If it's rated for 300 gph, I wouldn't run more than 150 through it, to allow for some blockage. 600 gph would be an overflowing tank.

The problem people have with the CPR overflows is that the large volume across which the water flows keeps the actual water velocity slow. The low velocity allows air bubbles to build up, which can break the siphon.

realest · 09/24/2007, 07:18 PM

i am so sorry, i have no understanding of this siphon and what siphon do. So if i get a overflow rated at 300gph, i shouldn't run it anymore then 150gph? and if thats the case, the rio 2500 which is rated at 678 gph would work fine for me?

wish i knew more stuff about this..

i have already spent alot of money on this, just want to make sure i know what i am doing before burning all the money away

bertoni · 09/24/2007, 07:29 PM

The sticky thread at the top of the forum has a pointer to a short description of how a sump works, including a diagram. There's also three longer articles, for more details.

If you use the Rio 2500, I'd put a T in the return line so that some of the output can be drained right back into the sump. I'd get a small Eheim pump, personally.

Randall_James · 09/24/2007, 07:37 PM

You can not use the pumps "full" rated flow. When you pump water "uphill" the pump looses efficiency. I run the 2500HP because it is quiet. I hear that ehiems are also quiet but I do not have one to vouch for it.

This is stuff you are going to need to fully understand before you get in a bind. (or a flood) A 300gph overflow is IMO to small as it will be at 100% flow to run your system. This gives no breathing room for issues that are going to happen.

The Rio or any other pump rated at 600 or 700 gph is not going to come close to that after it pumps water 4-5 feet straight up..

realest · 09/24/2007, 08:08 PM

Ok i think i getting the understanding of it.

I am just going to go with the rio 2500. How do you like the rio2500?

is it any good? runs really quiet?

Thanks for all your help and thank you for your input randall james.

I am glad there is people like you guys out there that helps newbies like me out!

Anyone got any inputs of what overflow box is good? I am looking into cpr. Any comments?

bertoni · 09/24/2007, 08:11 PM

I have a LifeReef that's fine, but they are expensive.

Playa-1 · 09/24/2007, 08:15 PM

Use the head loss calculator on the home page to get a general idea of how much pump you will need. If your sump is in your basement you will need a larger pump then if it is in a cabinet under the aquarium. If the pump has to move the water 6 feet to your aquarium it will require a larger pump then if the water only has to be pumped 4 feet. You only want enough water going through your sump that your skimmer and overflow can easily handle. Too much water through the sump will most likely make your system too noisy. If your pump is too large for your overflow then your tank will overflow and cause you grief. It would be wise to put a tee in your return line and a valve to allow you to fine tune the amount of water going through your aquarium.

Randall_James · 09/24/2007, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bertoni
I have a LifeReef that's fine, but they are expensive.

+1 (expense is relative, and this is a bad place to compromise IMO)

Great item at a reasonable price

Quote:

I am glad there is people like you guys out there that helps newbies like me out!

And you are welcome, this thread does point out one thing, you need to research your options and make the final decisions yourself. There is a lot of information out there and some of it can be very misleading. In time you will know what is correct for your setup (not all systems are the same, what works for one, may not work for another)

another super resource is http://wetwebmedia.com as well. Plenty of reading there

09/23/2007, 11:15 PM	#1
realest Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Francisco Posts: 258	Need Help!! Please Help me!! I am in the process of setting up a refugium tank for my 55Gal tank. I have already chose a tank and overflow box and everything needed. The only thing that is stopping me is, which submersible pump do i use for the return water? I am setting up a sump base refugium tank. The overflow box i am getting is rated up to 300gph. If anyone can direct me to get the right submersible return pump. That was be great. Thank you!!

09/23/2007, 11:18 PM	#2
Randall_James Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,727	sump flow should be 3 to 5X system capacity, so in your case 150-250Gph. On the main page of the site is a headloss calculator that you can use to figure out the pump. I have a Rio 2500HP I run on my 60G with a 5' head and it works pretty quietly. Probably about the same pump you need __________________ "It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear"

09/23/2007, 11:39 PM	#6
Randall_James Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,727	You have to keep in mind the head loss. Pumping losses drop this pump to about half that Head loss results Unrestricted flow is substantial yes, but after you add 5' of water on top, it drops big time. __________________ "It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear"

09/23/2007, 11:49 PM	#8
Randall_James Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,727	You need to figure out Head heights (how far UP the water needs to pump) this is the water level in the sump to the very highest point in the return plumbing or the water level in the display tank (which ever is highest) Pipe size for the return line number of elbows or bends in pipe Those numbers will dictate what pump you require. __________________ "It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear"

09/24/2007, 11:21 AM	#9
ahullsb Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: sacramento, ca Posts: 2,729	An overflow of 300 gph is pushing it in my opinion, even with the rio 2500. I use that pump, and use a CPR-100 overflow with it. I wouldn't recommend a CPR overflow anyway. Lifereef sounds like the way to go. I think that with head loss, the Rio 2500 is probably pushing in the 300-400 gph range. I would make sure that your overflow can handle more than that. __________________ Andy Sacramento, CA Current Tank Info: 55 gallon reef w/20 gallon sump/ER135/ 75 pounds of live rock, 4 in sandbed, 2 b&w ocellaris clowns, yellow watchman/pistol, rosy scaled wrasse, Mystery wrasse, Copperbanded Butterfly, Lighting 48" outer orbit 2 150 mh/ 4 t5 actinics

09/23/2007, 11:23 PM	#3
coast2coast7390 Moved On Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Garden Grove Posts: 3,627	i have no clue what my overflow is rated for but i have a rio 2100 on my 30

09/23/2007, 11:29 PM	#4
realest Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Francisco Posts: 258	Hey Randall_James, The Rio 2500HP is rated as 748GPH. Are you pretty sure that will work for me? Here is the link!! Please help me guys!!

09/23/2007, 11:40 PM	#7
realest Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Francisco Posts: 258	So the Rio2500 is what you think would work for me?

09/24/2007, 06:44 PM	#10
realest Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Francisco Posts: 258	So lifereef overflow would be better then the cpr overflow? Anyone got into of which one is better? Also, for example. The overflow box is rated at 300gph, so i should get a return pump of 600gph? Would that be the right math? I am just worry that my pump is pumping too fast (faster then the water could get to it) or in reverse (overflow flowing too much and the return pump not pumping fast enough). Someone please be kind and explain to me how this works. I am a newbie!

09/24/2007, 07:07 PM	#11
fio1022 Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: NY Posts: 1,557	you might want to get an overated pump.You can tee off for your refugium or other equipment(skimmer,carbon,phosban,etc).I'm a believer in that you can't have too much flow. My first tank was a 55, I drilled 2 one inch drains and was using a mag 12. __________________ its all about time,space,and money Current Tank Info: 240g,64g acrylic sump/fuge.

09/24/2007, 07:09 PM	#12
realest Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Francisco Posts: 258	thanks the the input, but i am putting th sump in the refugium. So really. I don't have a place to diverter the water to. Also, if i get a overated pump, what will happen if the pump is pumping faster then my overflow (the water running to refugium? Thanks again!!

09/24/2007, 07:11 PM	#13
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	No, the other way for the overflow box... If it's rated for 300 gph, I wouldn't run more than 150 through it, to allow for some blockage. 600 gph would be an overflowing tank. The problem people have with the CPR overflows is that the large volume across which the water flows keeps the actual water velocity slow. The low velocity allows air bubbles to build up, which can break the siphon. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/24/2007, 07:18 PM	#14
realest Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Francisco Posts: 258	i am so sorry, i have no understanding of this siphon and what siphon do. So if i get a overflow rated at 300gph, i shouldn't run it anymore then 150gph? and if thats the case, the rio 2500 which is rated at 678 gph would work fine for me? wish i knew more stuff about this.. i have already spent alot of money on this, just want to make sure i know what i am doing before burning all the money away

09/24/2007, 07:29 PM	#15
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	The sticky thread at the top of the forum has a pointer to a short description of how a sump works, including a diagram. There's also three longer articles, for more details. If you use the Rio 2500, I'd put a T in the return line so that some of the output can be drained right back into the sump. I'd get a small Eheim pump, personally. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/24/2007, 07:37 PM	#16
Randall_James Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,727	You can not use the pumps "full" rated flow. When you pump water "uphill" the pump looses efficiency. I run the 2500HP because it is quiet. I hear that ehiems are also quiet but I do not have one to vouch for it. This is stuff you are going to need to fully understand before you get in a bind. (or a flood) A 300gph overflow is IMO to small as it will be at 100% flow to run your system. This gives no breathing room for issues that are going to happen. The Rio or any other pump rated at 600 or 700 gph is not going to come close to that after it pumps water 4-5 feet straight up.. __________________ "It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear"

09/24/2007, 08:08 PM	#17
realest Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Francisco Posts: 258	Ok i think i getting the understanding of it. I am just going to go with the rio 2500. How do you like the rio2500? is it any good? runs really quiet? Thanks for all your help and thank you for your input randall james. I am glad there is people like you guys out there that helps newbies like me out! Anyone got any inputs of what overflow box is good? I am looking into cpr. Any comments?

09/24/2007, 08:11 PM	#18
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I have a LifeReef that's fine, but they are expensive. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/24/2007, 08:15 PM	#19
Playa-1 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Laguna Niguel, CA Posts: 7,497	Use the head loss calculator on the home page to get a general idea of how much pump you will need. If your sump is in your basement you will need a larger pump then if it is in a cabinet under the aquarium. If the pump has to move the water 6 feet to your aquarium it will require a larger pump then if the water only has to be pumped 4 feet. You only want enough water going through your sump that your skimmer and overflow can easily handle. Too much water through the sump will most likely make your system too noisy. If your pump is too large for your overflow then your tank will overflow and cause you grief. It would be wise to put a tee in your return line and a valve to allow you to fine tune the amount of water going through your aquarium.