Need help-Skimmer Design

edsimmons · 10/12/2007, 10:47 AM

I'm designing a skimmer and need some feed back from experienced skimmer builders.

27" tall
8.5" Dia
4.5" Neck
2 x Aqua Bee 3000
Bubble chamber
6" Inner chamber

Dose you see any problems w/ this design?

TIA
Ed Simmons

USC-fan · 10/12/2007, 10:54 AM

Why are you not going with a counter current design?

edsimmons · 10/12/2007, 11:20 AM

I'm thinking that a recirc is better at removing waste.And it's flow through is more controllable.

hahnmeister · 10/12/2007, 11:33 AM

So the pump outputs go into the central chamber, right? Well... in that case, you might as well remove the black disk holding it up and just have the cylinder right on the bottom, as well as the pump outlets (place the aquabees on their sides on the bottom so they suck in from the outer chamber and pump into the center). Skimmers set up in the manner you have put together are done so with the inner and outer cylinder to get away with less height. Then, you can also make the inner cylinder lower, like half the height it is now.

Wait a second... why is the inlet at the bottom, and why is the standpipe outlet so high? Wait... is this an ORCA design? The dual Aquabees would sure seem so. I need to see a flow diagram... the water flow seems a bit confusing here... cant tell where the water is supposed to go in that design.

USC-fan · 10/12/2007, 11:38 AM

Ocra uses the AB2001 and i believe the pump here are backwards.

edsimmons- i was talking about a counter-current recirc design.

edsimmons · 10/12/2007, 11:41 AM

oops the AB are shown the wrong direction.

Intake at the top and output in the the "Bubble Box".

I created this design w/ ACAD but yes once the design is corrected it will be built by ORCA.

edsimmons · 10/12/2007, 11:43 AM

*Edit it'll use 2 x AB2000*

luke33 · 10/12/2007, 11:48 AM

With all those corrections made it will work well. I personally have never been a huge fan of the inner tubes so large. Kind of defeats the whole purpose imo of a larger reaction chamber. Your going to get 1000lpa and you should be able to handle that just fine but i even question if you need a bubble plate.

edsimmons · 10/12/2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by luke33
With all those corrections made it will work well. I personally have never been a huge fan of the inner tubes so large. Kind of defeats the whole purpose imo of a larger reaction chamber. Your going to get 1000lpa and you should be able to handle that just fine but i even question if you need a bubble plate.

I like the idea of the inner tube so that the recirc pumps can draw in bubble free water and I'm thinking that the pump will run more efficiently.

edsimmons · 10/12/2007, 11:57 AM

Red is water from overflow (I'll Tee off the existing)

Green in return to sump

edsimmons · 10/12/2007, 12:16 PM

AB pumps in correct orientation and no flanged neck.

manderx · 10/12/2007, 12:26 PM

looks good to me. i'd do things a little different if i was designing something from scratch, but each design element makes perfect sense and i don't see anything about it that will make it not work. dirty water goes in the bottom so it has to make at least 1 pass through the recirc, which is also why clean water goes out the standpipe above the separator disk (looked pretty obvious to me, before the new pics were posted). the only thing i'd like to point out is to make sure there is enough of a nub sticking into the internal chamber to stick on some 45's or elbows on so you can play around and experiment with shooting water in at different angles to see if you can find a sweetspot.

and i like the drain, never made any sense to me why they aren't standard on *all* big skimmers. i always had to laugh each time i had to take my 902 apart for pump cleaning, and had to drop a powerhead down it to drain it. so overpriced, and yet missing all the little things that make the difference between a decent piece of equipment (that doesn't justify the price) and a great piece of equipment (that does).

Quote:

Why are you not going with a counter current design?

the whole idea and benefit to counter-current is not applicable with a recirc design (maybe if it was 4'+ tall with a short recirc loop at the bottom). too much mixing to keep the inversely increasing/decreasing concentration gradients as bubbles rise/water descends.

hahnmeister · 10/12/2007, 12:30 PM

Ahh... now I see. The pumps are backwards... Okay. So its a tall, recirc version of an ATI bubblemaster. Okay, then that design is 'Boss'. There are two things I would change though. If you arent going to make the skimmer counter-current with the incoming water, I would have the incoming water fed right into the inlet of one or both of the pumps... like a BK external. That way, the net flow through the bubble plate is actually less, and therefore less turbulent.

Then, I agree with lowering the inner cylinder. Like I mentioned before, skimmers that use this 'inner cylinder' design are so that they can get away with a shorter height... an ATI bubblemaster needs it or else it would have to be 6" taller for 'bubble sorting' to keep microbubbles from the exit. Well... yours is more than 6" taller, so the inner/outer thing is useless... as all its doing is concentrating the upward flow of water into a smaller area. It would be better to let it spread out. So if you make that inner cylinder lower... like 1/2 or even 1/3 the current height, it should be fine. All its really there for is to keep bubbles from going out the exit, but since this is a recirc, alot of that concern is null & void since the throuput of this skimmer will be alot less than a single-pass ATI bubblemaster... you may only need a few inches of that pipe above the bubble plate.

Other things of note, but not 100% concern. The placement of the pumps is cool... it places the air intake higher so that in theory the pump should be able to suck in more air, and then pump it down in the skimmer. Be careful though... this may backfire because now you have to go putting pipe and elbows on the output, which will cause back pressure on the pump... killing performance most likely just as much. There is no easy way to win here. The best is just to put the pump lower on the body and use a linear pump to force feed it.

Otherwise, that design is very similar to an external ATB skimmer. You might want to check it out.

Otherwise, here is my design from a while back... look familiar?

I just opted for a counter-current inlet. I know this adds some turbulence since the incoming water is flowing right into the column of bubbles, but, with some diffuser work on the inlet (there are many ways, the easiest being a simple 90 degree elbow on the inlet so the incoming water spins), like a cone shaped bubble plate, or a 'halo' shaped spraybar input.

edsimmons · 10/12/2007, 01:27 PM

ok this is what i got.

1-Shorter inner tube from 12" to 6"

2-Strait shot in to bubble box form AB pump

Section Plain

luke33 · 10/12/2007, 01:31 PM

Much better, now your talkin!

hahnmeister · 10/12/2007, 04:38 PM

Okay, now the scale doesnt show it, but you should have enough room to move the venturi to be right before the pump, rather than go through that elbow... you dont want to have that elbow between the pump intake and the venturi. Then, instead of an elbow, have a 'T' there, with the extra opening facing upwards. This is where your incoming water will go, rather than the seperate red pipe.

edsimmons · 10/12/2007, 06:12 PM

Ok

Inlet-Red
Output-Green
Venturi-Yellow

It'll have two pumps
should I split the inlet between the two?

edsimmons · 10/12/2007, 06:19 PM

The venturi will have a tube the runs up to about the neck area

USC-fan · 10/12/2007, 06:23 PM

Why don't you go ahead and design the skimmer with mess modded Ab2001? Then you would be pulling around 700 lpm per pump.

edsimmons · 10/12/2007, 06:29 PM

Yes the dude that's building it for me is going to through in some of that black mesh stuff.

hahnmeister · 10/12/2007, 08:32 PM

You can split the incoming water between the two, yes. Each Aquabee may only handle 300gph of actual water, so it may be too much for one pump. Not that it matters, since it would just go out the 'T' then if the incoming water is too much for one pump. Its up to you. I would do it, yes... but its not necessary. The red pipe doesnt need to be so tall either... it can just be a valve and barb fitting on the inlet... doesnt have to be a certain height.

edsimmons · 10/12/2007, 09:01 PM

Ok like this

edsimmons · 10/13/2007, 10:33 AM

So this is what i'm going with

Anyone else have input on this design?

Thanks
Ed

hahnmeister · 10/13/2007, 01:33 PM

Looks good to me.

10/12/2007, 10:47 AM	#1
edsimmons Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roseville,CA Posts: 2,165	Need help-Skimmer Design I'm designing a skimmer and need some feed back from experienced skimmer builders. 27" tall 8.5" Dia 4.5" Neck 2 x Aqua Bee 3000 Bubble chamber 6" Inner chamber Dose you see any problems w/ this design? TIA Ed Simmons __________________ "First you get good, then you get fast, then grouchiness sets in." "Experience is the best Teacher....You usually get it just after you need it"

10/12/2007, 11:20 AM	#3
edsimmons Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roseville,CA Posts: 2,165	I'm thinking that a recirc is better at removing waste.And it's flow through is more controllable. __________________ "First you get good, then you get fast, then grouchiness sets in." "Experience is the best Teacher....You usually get it just after you need it"

10/12/2007, 11:41 AM	#6
edsimmons Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roseville,CA Posts: 2,165	oops the AB are shown the wrong direction. Intake at the top and output in the the "Bubble Box". I created this design w/ ACAD but yes once the design is corrected it will be built by ORCA. __________________ "First you get good, then you get fast, then grouchiness sets in." "Experience is the best Teacher....You usually get it just after you need it"

10/12/2007, 11:43 AM	#7
edsimmons Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roseville,CA Posts: 2,165	Edit it'll use 2 x AB2000 __________________ "First you get good, then you get fast, then grouchiness sets in." "Experience is the best Teacher....You usually get it just after you need it"

10/12/2007, 11:57 AM	#10
edsimmons Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roseville,CA Posts: 2,165	Red is water from overflow (I'll Tee off the existing) Green in return to sump __________________ "First you get good, then you get fast, then grouchiness sets in." "Experience is the best Teacher....You usually get it just after you need it"

10/12/2007, 10:54 AM	#2
USC-fan Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,626	Why are you not going with a counter current design?

10/12/2007, 11:33 AM	#4
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	So the pump outputs go into the central chamber, right? Well... in that case, you might as well remove the black disk holding it up and just have the cylinder right on the bottom, as well as the pump outlets (place the aquabees on their sides on the bottom so they suck in from the outer chamber and pump into the center). Skimmers set up in the manner you have put together are done so with the inner and outer cylinder to get away with less height. Then, you can also make the inner cylinder lower, like half the height it is now. Wait a second... why is the inlet at the bottom, and why is the standpipe outlet so high? Wait... is this an ORCA design? The dual Aquabees would sure seem so. I need to see a flow diagram... the water flow seems a bit confusing here... cant tell where the water is supposed to go in that design.

10/12/2007, 11:38 AM	#5
USC-fan Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,626	Ocra uses the AB2001 and i believe the pump here are backwards. edsimmons- i was talking about a counter-current recirc design.

10/12/2007, 11:48 AM	#8
luke33 Moved On Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 8,375	With all those corrections made it will work well. I personally have never been a huge fan of the inner tubes so large. Kind of defeats the whole purpose imo of a larger reaction chamber. Your going to get 1000lpa and you should be able to handle that just fine but i even question if you need a bubble plate.

10/12/2007, 12:16 PM	#11
edsimmons Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roseville,CA Posts: 2,165	AB pumps in correct orientation and no flanged neck. __________________ "First you get good, then you get fast, then grouchiness sets in." "Experience is the best Teacher....You usually get it just after you need it"

10/12/2007, 12:30 PM	#13
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	Ahh... now I see. The pumps are backwards... Okay. So its a tall, recirc version of an ATI bubblemaster. Okay, then that design is 'Boss'. There are two things I would change though. If you arent going to make the skimmer counter-current with the incoming water, I would have the incoming water fed right into the inlet of one or both of the pumps... like a BK external. That way, the net flow through the bubble plate is actually less, and therefore less turbulent. Then, I agree with lowering the inner cylinder. Like I mentioned before, skimmers that use this 'inner cylinder' design are so that they can get away with a shorter height... an ATI bubblemaster needs it or else it would have to be 6" taller for 'bubble sorting' to keep microbubbles from the exit. Well... yours is more than 6" taller, so the inner/outer thing is useless... as all its doing is concentrating the upward flow of water into a smaller area. It would be better to let it spread out. So if you make that inner cylinder lower... like 1/2 or even 1/3 the current height, it should be fine. All its really there for is to keep bubbles from going out the exit, but since this is a recirc, alot of that concern is null & void since the throuput of this skimmer will be alot less than a single-pass ATI bubblemaster... you may only need a few inches of that pipe above the bubble plate. Other things of note, but not 100% concern. The placement of the pumps is cool... it places the air intake higher so that in theory the pump should be able to suck in more air, and then pump it down in the skimmer. Be careful though... this may backfire because now you have to go putting pipe and elbows on the output, which will cause back pressure on the pump... killing performance most likely just as much. There is no easy way to win here. The best is just to put the pump lower on the body and use a linear pump to force feed it. Otherwise, that design is very similar to an external ATB skimmer. You might want to check it out. Otherwise, here is my design from a while back... look familiar? I just opted for a counter-current inlet. I know this adds some turbulence since the incoming water is flowing right into the column of bubbles, but, with some diffuser work on the inlet (there are many ways, the easiest being a simple 90 degree elbow on the inlet so the incoming water spins), like a cone shaped bubble plate, or a 'halo' shaped spraybar input. Last edited by hahnmeister; 10/12/2007 at 12:35 PM.

10/12/2007, 01:27 PM	#14
edsimmons Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roseville,CA Posts: 2,165	ok this is what i got. 1-Shorter inner tube from 12" to 6" 2-Strait shot in to bubble box form AB pump Section Plain __________________ "First you get good, then you get fast, then grouchiness sets in." "Experience is the best Teacher....You usually get it just after you need it"

10/12/2007, 01:31 PM	#15
luke33 Moved On Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 8,375	Much better, now your talkin!

10/12/2007, 04:38 PM	#16
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	Okay, now the scale doesnt show it, but you should have enough room to move the venturi to be right before the pump, rather than go through that elbow... you dont want to have that elbow between the pump intake and the venturi. Then, instead of an elbow, have a 'T' there, with the extra opening facing upwards. This is where your incoming water will go, rather than the seperate red pipe.

10/12/2007, 06:12 PM	#17
edsimmons Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roseville,CA Posts: 2,165	Ok Inlet-Red Output-Green Venturi-Yellow It'll have two pumps should I split the inlet between the two? __________________ "First you get good, then you get fast, then grouchiness sets in." "Experience is the best Teacher....You usually get it just after you need it"

10/12/2007, 06:19 PM	#18
edsimmons Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roseville,CA Posts: 2,165	The venturi will have a tube the runs up to about the neck area __________________ "First you get good, then you get fast, then grouchiness sets in." "Experience is the best Teacher....You usually get it just after you need it"

10/12/2007, 06:23 PM	#19
USC-fan Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,626	Why don't you go ahead and design the skimmer with mess modded Ab2001? Then you would be pulling around 700 lpm per pump.

10/12/2007, 06:29 PM	#20
edsimmons Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roseville,CA Posts: 2,165	Yes the dude that's building it for me is going to through in some of that black mesh stuff. __________________ "First you get good, then you get fast, then grouchiness sets in." "Experience is the best Teacher....You usually get it just after you need it"

10/12/2007, 08:32 PM	#21
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	You can split the incoming water between the two, yes. Each Aquabee may only handle 300gph of actual water, so it may be too much for one pump. Not that it matters, since it would just go out the 'T' then if the incoming water is too much for one pump. Its up to you. I would do it, yes... but its not necessary. The red pipe doesnt need to be so tall either... it can just be a valve and barb fitting on the inlet... doesnt have to be a certain height.

10/12/2007, 09:01 PM	#22
edsimmons Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roseville,CA Posts: 2,165	Ok like this __________________ "First you get good, then you get fast, then grouchiness sets in." "Experience is the best Teacher....You usually get it just after you need it"

10/13/2007, 10:33 AM	#23
edsimmons Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roseville,CA Posts: 2,165	So this is what i'm going with Anyone else have input on this design? Thanks Ed __________________ "First you get good, then you get fast, then grouchiness sets in." "Experience is the best Teacher....You usually get it just after you need it"

10/13/2007, 01:33 PM	#24
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	Looks good to me.