whole setup with one pump and minimal plumbing?

maddmatt02 · 01/13/2008, 10:59 PM

well, I have a 20GH freshwater right now, and I have lights on a timer, I have an autofeeder, and the heater is obviously on its own built in thermostat. well my house is usually between about 65-70 inside, and the heater keeps the water around 72-74. well when I went on vacation for christmas I turned the heater down to 45 (lowest my home thermostat goes) just so pipes wouldnt freeze and the rats wouldnt either(pets, not pests) well, aparently the heater couldnt keep the water at 72 with the house at 45. because the water wasnt even 66(lowest my thermometer reads) and everything but a pleco, 2 spotted catfish, and 2 chinese algae eaters were alive, everything that swam middle to upper died, and ive been wanting to go saltwatyer for a while so figured why not now....

I see alot of builds where there is an overflow or someother way of getting water to the sump, and then in the sump there is a pump pushing water back to the tank, and then a closed loop with another pump, so they got quite a bit of plumbing going on back there.

well, if I only wanted one pump and the most effiecient use of plumbing, what about this. I built a dual chamber air stone skimmer. basically water is fed in close to the top of the first one, the drain at the bottom actually rises to the same level as the first ones feed line and feeds it and the 2nd one drains into the sump. and the foam output is T'd to the other and sloped away to drip into a collection cup.

this is the way I was planning on setting up my tank/sump.

I was going to put a acrylic sheet about 2" from the back wall, vertically in the tank and ave it just below the water line, on this I am going to do the pond spray foam thing to make it look like a rock wall. I am going to have 2 - 1 1/4" holes in it though for plumbing going through. behind the wall I have a standpipe draining into the sump, but it will be T'd to have 2 outputs, the vertical output going to a ball valve and then the skimmer, so that I can control the volume the skimmer sees, the horizontal one will allow the rest of the flow thorugh some kind of filter media and into the sump, then a return pump will pump through a modded SCWD and the two outputs will either go through a bulk, or over the top end then down behind the wall and 90 out and through the holes I made. not sure of placement yet, though I was thiking of maybe on towards the top left pointing down at the opposite front right corner, and then maybe one either in the middle or bottom of the right side about halfway to the front and 90's back towards the top left(I read getting the top to ripple a bit helps gas exchange).

I know air stone skimmers arent as good as pump driven ones, but ive read alot of setups that were small and skimmerless, and mines only a 20H with a 10G sump.

was thinking maybe Ill have a over the tank siphon drain because it will pull more water than gravity right? but if I'm kinda confused because in my mind, having the standpipe submerged seems like the water draining through would want to pull more like a siphon?

just wondering if anyone sees a problem using one pump for everything and the same drain line for everything.

I think im gonna start some DIY rock soon so it wont be very soon at all that I start to set it up.

bertoni · 01/14/2008, 07:18 PM

I don't think that's going to work, because the flow rate through the skimmer needs to be fairly low. I'd plan on having a powerhead in the tank, as well.

maddmatt02 · 01/14/2008, 09:09 PM

thats why Id have the sump feed T'd with one leg to the skimmer and I can partially close the ball valve on that leg to limit the flow?

and if I have alternating water currents from the pump, and the air stone in the skimmer aerating the water, what would be the benefit of a powerhead? isnt it just for water flow and maybe some aeration?

bertoni · 01/15/2008, 12:48 AM

Running all the flow through the sump will still be noisier than needed, but some people do it. A powerhead will be cheaper (in terms of the electrical bill) and quieter.

maddmatt02 · 01/15/2008, 09:22 AM

well, if I was using a closed loop I would need a pump for that, and then I would still need the return pump from the sump, so wouldnt it be cheaper to have one large pump do both jobs? so when people have insane amounts of flow, they dont really need that much to go through the filter/refug, they just need alot of water current only?

and another question, why would it be loud? I could have the sump feed line dispense the water below the water level so it wouldnt be splashing into it, the returns will be underwater, it will be one of those standpipes where water isnt splashing down into the overflow?

werkkrew · 01/15/2008, 09:27 AM

20 gallon tank?

I wouldnt go with a closed loop or anything.

Personally id get some sort of overflow box like a Lifereef one, with one drain into the sump, one return to the tank and a couple powerheads.

That would be 2 pipes for the sump.

As for the skimmer, you can get a HOB skimmer and mount it on the side of the sump if space inside the sump is a concern.

Shooter7 · 01/15/2008, 09:30 AM

If you are running closed loop plumbing through your sump, then it's no longer a closed loop. A closed loop means just that, it's self contained. And yes, the main flow is typically obtained through powerheads in the tank or closed loop, not the flow through the sump.

maddmatt02 · 01/15/2008, 10:45 PM

ok, so it wouldnt be a closed loop, but I would get the same effect wouldnt i, lots of waterflow out of different areas in the tank

jjkief86 · 01/15/2008, 11:15 PM

So first, your useing a 20 tall for salt water. Not my first choice.
Second, if your doing what I am thinking then it sounds fine, but I could be adding things in my head that you are not doing. So to get this strait, your building an box with two holes to house the drain (just a box, not an overflow box). The overflow drains into the top of a T. The bottom of the T has a GATEVALVE into a air stone skimmer. The horizontal out is drained into a filter sock/sump. Return pump is split with a SCWD.
Sound perfectly fine.
Just you don't want to much flow though the sump and the circulation in the tank will need to be at least 200gph. That is pushing it for a 10 gallon sump. You will get a lot of microbubbles if you do not change the filter sock a lot.
But sounds good. What coral are you planning? What fish?

01/13/2008, 10:59 PM	#1
maddmatt02 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 38	whole setup with one pump and minimal plumbing? well, I have a 20GH freshwater right now, and I have lights on a timer, I have an autofeeder, and the heater is obviously on its own built in thermostat. well my house is usually between about 65-70 inside, and the heater keeps the water around 72-74. well when I went on vacation for christmas I turned the heater down to 45 (lowest my home thermostat goes) just so pipes wouldnt freeze and the rats wouldnt either(pets, not pests) well, aparently the heater couldnt keep the water at 72 with the house at 45. because the water wasnt even 66(lowest my thermometer reads) and everything but a pleco, 2 spotted catfish, and 2 chinese algae eaters were alive, everything that swam middle to upper died, and ive been wanting to go saltwatyer for a while so figured why not now.... I see alot of builds where there is an overflow or someother way of getting water to the sump, and then in the sump there is a pump pushing water back to the tank, and then a closed loop with another pump, so they got quite a bit of plumbing going on back there. well, if I only wanted one pump and the most effiecient use of plumbing, what about this. I built a dual chamber air stone skimmer. basically water is fed in close to the top of the first one, the drain at the bottom actually rises to the same level as the first ones feed line and feeds it and the 2nd one drains into the sump. and the foam output is T'd to the other and sloped away to drip into a collection cup. this is the way I was planning on setting up my tank/sump. I was going to put a acrylic sheet about 2" from the back wall, vertically in the tank and ave it just below the water line, on this I am going to do the pond spray foam thing to make it look like a rock wall. I am going to have 2 - 1 1/4" holes in it though for plumbing going through. behind the wall I have a standpipe draining into the sump, but it will be T'd to have 2 outputs, the vertical output going to a ball valve and then the skimmer, so that I can control the volume the skimmer sees, the horizontal one will allow the rest of the flow thorugh some kind of filter media and into the sump, then a return pump will pump through a modded SCWD and the two outputs will either go through a bulk, or over the top end then down behind the wall and 90 out and through the holes I made. not sure of placement yet, though I was thiking of maybe on towards the top left pointing down at the opposite front right corner, and then maybe one either in the middle or bottom of the right side about halfway to the front and 90's back towards the top left(I read getting the top to ripple a bit helps gas exchange). I know air stone skimmers arent as good as pump driven ones, but ive read alot of setups that were small and skimmerless, and mines only a 20H with a 10G sump. was thinking maybe Ill have a over the tank siphon drain because it will pull more water than gravity right? but if I'm kinda confused because in my mind, having the standpipe submerged seems like the water draining through would want to pull more like a siphon? just wondering if anyone sees a problem using one pump for everything and the same drain line for everything. I think im gonna start some DIY rock soon so it wont be very soon at all that I start to set it up.

01/14/2008, 07:18 PM	#2
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I don't think that's going to work, because the flow rate through the skimmer needs to be fairly low. I'd plan on having a powerhead in the tank, as well. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/15/2008, 12:48 AM	#4
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Running all the flow through the sump will still be noisier than needed, but some people do it. A powerhead will be cheaper (in terms of the electrical bill) and quieter. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/15/2008, 09:27 AM	#6
werkkrew Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 102	20 gallon tank? I wouldnt go with a closed loop or anything. Personally id get some sort of overflow box like a Lifereef one, with one drain into the sump, one return to the tank and a couple powerheads. That would be 2 pipes for the sump. As for the skimmer, you can get a HOB skimmer and mount it on the side of the sump if space inside the sump is a concern. __________________ My AquaticLog: http://www.aquaticlog.com/aquariums/werkkrew/1 Current Tank Info: 70G Custom Miracles Display 90G Total System Volume

01/15/2008, 09:30 AM	#7
Shooter7 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tolono, IL Posts: 6,754	If you are running closed loop plumbing through your sump, then it's no longer a closed loop. A closed loop means just that, it's self contained. And yes, the main flow is typically obtained through powerheads in the tank or closed loop, not the flow through the sump. __________________ Dave Current Tank Info: 10 years salty - standard 29g reef - moved from 120 gal reef, 2x250w Reeflux 10k's on ARO electronics and VHO super actinics on Icecap ballast, 2xTunze 6060, MSX 200 skimmer, GEO 612 Ca reactor, mag 12 return

01/14/2008, 09:09 PM	#3
maddmatt02 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 38	thats why Id have the sump feed T'd with one leg to the skimmer and I can partially close the ball valve on that leg to limit the flow? and if I have alternating water currents from the pump, and the air stone in the skimmer aerating the water, what would be the benefit of a powerhead? isnt it just for water flow and maybe some aeration?

01/15/2008, 09:22 AM	#5
maddmatt02 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 38	well, if I was using a closed loop I would need a pump for that, and then I would still need the return pump from the sump, so wouldnt it be cheaper to have one large pump do both jobs? so when people have insane amounts of flow, they dont really need that much to go through the filter/refug, they just need alot of water current only? and another question, why would it be loud? I could have the sump feed line dispense the water below the water level so it wouldnt be splashing into it, the returns will be underwater, it will be one of those standpipes where water isnt splashing down into the overflow?

01/15/2008, 10:45 PM	#8
maddmatt02 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 38	ok, so it wouldnt be a closed loop, but I would get the same effect wouldnt i, lots of waterflow out of different areas in the tank

01/15/2008, 11:15 PM	#9
jjkief86 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: bay area, ca Posts: 200	So first, your useing a 20 tall for salt water. Not my first choice. Second, if your doing what I am thinking then it sounds fine, but I could be adding things in my head that you are not doing. So to get this strait, your building an box with two holes to house the drain (just a box, not an overflow box). The overflow drains into the top of a T. The bottom of the T has a GATEVALVE into a air stone skimmer. The horizontal out is drained into a filter sock/sump. Return pump is split with a SCWD. Sound perfectly fine. Just you don't want to much flow though the sump and the circulation in the tank will need to be at least 200gph. That is pushing it for a 10 gallon sump. You will get a lot of microbubbles if you do not change the filter sock a lot. But sounds good. What coral are you planning? What fish?