Possible to bypass the inital tank cycle?

Simran · 01/30/2008, 10:30 PM

So I've always been under the impression that it takes time for a tank to mature and will go through a cycle when first set up. Ive been lurking and have seen quite a few people who have setup new tanks and just immediately thrown in fish and coral. Is it possible to do this by taking water and live rock from a cycled tank? I'm confused could some one please shine in here with some information
Thanks

Radioheadx14 · 01/30/2008, 10:51 PM

I bought some good LR from a local place that was fully cured, i never had a cycle, but i still went through the normal early tank syndrome. I didn't add anything right away though... i guess since i was a noob, i took it slow, but i did have a nice colony of zoas pop up on my rocks during the mini cycle.

Macimage · 01/30/2008, 10:55 PM

If you purchase live rock from an established tank, you may only have a mini cycle. I haven't seen any posts where someone has set up a brand new tank, added fish and corals and had long term success. However, I have seen posts where established reefers have upgraded or changed tanks and carefully swapped out livestock, which is different than setting up a brand new tank.

Joyce

Aquarist007 · 01/30/2008, 11:23 PM

the bacteria will only cycle to the existing bioload of the tank which right now is any further curing of the live rock so I doubt the bacteria has established high numbers at all yet

You put in fish especially and you will great a bigger bioload then the bacteria can handle there going to have to cycle to match it--this this doesn't happen instantly you could get a big enough ammonia spike to crash your tank

Test out the level--put a raw shrimp in there for two days max--see if it causes a spike in ammonia or not

Its customary to stock with your tank slowly with less bioloads at a time
clean up crew
some hardy corals
then fish--by then you have allowed more time for the cycling of the bacteria

bertoni · 01/31/2008, 12:12 AM

If the rock is all well-cured, setting up a tank like that can work. There are also some corals and fish that can survive poor water quality better than others. All in all, I think it's better to be patient.

turtleman10 · 01/31/2008, 03:05 AM

slow and steady.

greenbean36191 · 01/31/2008, 07:26 AM

It's done all the time in aquaculture and research settings. A lot of times, waiting around for a few months just isn't practical.

No, there is no need to have the traditional spikes of ammonia and nitrite and really it's better not to have them. The tank "matures" much faster the smaller you keep the spikes. However, the trade off is you don't get those spikes and then the drop offs to assure you that the bacteria really are there. You could always add another ammonia source to test, but that pretty much negates the benefits of going this route in the first place.

NirvanaFan · 01/31/2008, 07:37 AM

I got about 85 pounds of rock when I set up my tank. 60 pounds of it was taken directly out of a tank that was being taken down. It was covered in coralline. My cycle took about 3 days to complete. It wasn't a bad cycle at all. I only had some green star polyps and a colt coral that didn't show signs of any stress.

I did wait about 3 or 4 weeks to add any fish though.

wachuko · 01/31/2008, 09:15 AM

I used 85lbs of cured rock from the LFS and I was up and running in less than a week... never saw any spikes in the parameters (must have been a very short cycle)...

Added the cleaning crew first and then, after a couple of days, added the fish.

So far, knock on wood, everything is fine.

epstein · 01/31/2008, 10:03 AM

I had the same ....I got up and running from an established tank and utilized his 40lbs ...(i have added 20lbs more since)..No spikes and all my levels are good.....havent lost a fish yet (been up a month) just wish I knew where that damn slug is....lol

jthao · 01/31/2008, 10:12 AM

imo, if you use rock and sand and water from an existing tank, then you're basicically transferring from one tank to another. this works well, and you don't have to wait for months. usually you can add corals and fish right away. just don't overdo the fish and coral.

Beanfish · 01/31/2008, 10:19 AM

imo...I'd go slow.

Reefmore · 01/31/2008, 10:22 AM

Only bad things happen fast...

Simran · 01/31/2008, 10:34 AM

well in very established tanks i see that the sand bed is really dirty.
wouldnt dumping that into a new tank stir all of that up and create a spike in ammonia?

jaw969 · 01/31/2008, 11:06 AM

Yes it could..... I would never reuse sand (I always rinse it first). Waiting for your tank to cycle is always the best and safest way but..... I have had purchased contents of entire tanks and had to set them up immediately in a new tank. I have never had one live die from a lack of cycle. I believe this was due to the amount of live rock. My tanks always have atleast 1.5 lbs of rock per gallon but usually 2 lbs per gallon.

In saltwater though patience is a virtue!

FranktheTankTx · 01/31/2008, 11:41 AM

It's really quite simple. If you take LR out of an existing tank that has a bio load then that LR has an established bacteria colony to handle that particular bio load. However, if you do not match the bio load of the previous tank then the bacteria colony will starve and some will die off. Of course, there are water parameters to be concerned with as well. Freshly made saltwater is not mature and the parameters are not stable yet. There is not a right or wrong way to do this. You could get very established and cured rock but no way are you going to then throw 7 fish and 20 corals into a brand new tank... at least I hope not!
So that LR will lose a majority of it's bacteria colony. As most suggest, it's best to take it slow. This is not a cheap hobby... don't rush your investment.

Aquarist007 · 01/31/2008, 12:42 PM

Good answer Frank. Cyling is mainly about giving the bacteria time to handle the bioload that you are going to introduce to the tank. There is a time factor that can't be increased(that much) for the bacteria to increase their numbers.
If you think your tank is ready then add a good size raw shrimp for two days----fish it out--if there was no ammonia spike then you know you tank can handle the biomass of a good size shrimp
(Some reefers use raw shrimp to induce the bacteria to multiply---not necessarily faster--just to induce the cycling practise)

edit:
this is what greenbean suggested above by adding ammonia----but if it your own tank and there is no rush like in a commercial lab why not go the more natural way with the raw shrimp instead of adding straight ammonia to your tank

01/30/2008, 10:30 PM	#1
Simran Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 65	Possible to bypass the inital tank cycle? So I've always been under the impression that it takes time for a tank to mature and will go through a cycle when first set up. Ive been lurking and have seen quite a few people who have setup new tanks and just immediately thrown in fish and coral. Is it possible to do this by taking water and live rock from a cycled tank? I'm confused could some one please shine in here with some information Thanks __________________ Satsimran Current Tank Info: 75 gallon bow front reef with 40 gallon sump

01/30/2008, 11:23 PM	#4
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	the bacteria will only cycle to the existing bioload of the tank which right now is any further curing of the live rock so I doubt the bacteria has established high numbers at all yet You put in fish especially and you will great a bigger bioload then the bacteria can handle there going to have to cycle to match it--this this doesn't happen instantly you could get a big enough ammonia spike to crash your tank Test out the level--put a raw shrimp in there for two days max--see if it causes a spike in ammonia or not Its customary to stock with your tank slowly with less bioloads at a time clean up crew some hardy corals then fish--by then you have allowed more time for the cycling of the bacteria __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

01/31/2008, 12:12 AM	#5
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	If the rock is all well-cured, setting up a tank like that can work. There are also some corals and fish that can survive poor water quality better than others. All in all, I think it's better to be patient. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/31/2008, 07:26 AM	#7
greenbean36191 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 10,598	It's done all the time in aquaculture and research settings. A lot of times, waiting around for a few months just isn't practical. No, there is no need to have the traditional spikes of ammonia and nitrite and really it's better not to have them. The tank "matures" much faster the smaller you keep the spikes. However, the trade off is you don't get those spikes and then the drop offs to assure you that the bacteria really are there. You could always add another ammonia source to test, but that pretty much negates the benefits of going this route in the first place. __________________ Some say the sun rises in the East. Some say it rises in the West. The truth must be somewhere in the middle. Current Tank Info: tore them down to move and haven't had the time or money to set them back up

01/31/2008, 09:15 AM	#9
wachuko Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 236	I used 85lbs of cured rock from the LFS and I was up and running in less than a week... never saw any spikes in the parameters (must have been a very short cycle)... Added the cleaning crew first and then, after a couple of days, added the fish. So far, knock on wood, everything is fine. __________________ Kind regards, Wachuko My 210gal tank : http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1300946 Current Tank Info: 210Gal 72x24x29

01/30/2008, 10:51 PM	#2
Radioheadx14 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,601	I bought some good LR from a local place that was fully cured, i never had a cycle, but i still went through the normal early tank syndrome. I didn't add anything right away though... i guess since i was a noob, i took it slow, but i did have a nice colony of zoas pop up on my rocks during the mini cycle.

01/30/2008, 10:55 PM	#3
Macimage Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Quartz Hill Posts: 4,078	If you purchase live rock from an established tank, you may only have a mini cycle. I haven't seen any posts where someone has set up a brand new tank, added fish and corals and had long term success. However, I have seen posts where established reefers have upgraded or changed tanks and carefully swapped out livestock, which is different than setting up a brand new tank. Joyce

01/31/2008, 03:05 AM	#6
turtleman10 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Spring Grove Posts: 417	slow and steady.

01/31/2008, 07:37 AM	#8
NirvanaFan Reef Ninja Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 4,280	I got about 85 pounds of rock when I set up my tank. 60 pounds of it was taken directly out of a tank that was being taken down. It was covered in coralline. My cycle took about 3 days to complete. It wasn't a bad cycle at all. I only had some green star polyps and a colt coral that didn't show signs of any stress. I did wait about 3 or 4 weeks to add any fish though.

01/31/2008, 10:03 AM	#10
epstein Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NYC transplant now in CT Posts: 1,501	I had the same ....I got up and running from an established tank and utilized his 40lbs ...(i have added 20lbs more since)..No spikes and all my levels are good.....havent lost a fish yet (been up a month) just wish I knew where that damn slug is....lol __________________ I'd Rather be a failure at something I love , Than a sucess at something I hate . George Burns Current Tank Info: 150 DD Cube / 100 Gal Sump(basement) 30gal cube frag tank plumb Panworld 250ps return/ Reef Octopus SRO3000 Skimmer/ Bubble Magus Doser/Lumenmax reflector with 400 watt Radium bulb Ice Cap Ballast Apex Controller 2 MP40wes 2 gyre 150

01/31/2008, 10:12 AM	#11
jthao Super Saiyan Join Date: May 2007 Location: NorCal Posts: 2,522	imo, if you use rock and sand and water from an existing tank, then you're basicically transferring from one tank to another. this works well, and you don't have to wait for months. usually you can add corals and fish right away. just don't overdo the fish and coral. __________________ Elos 160xl \| Profilux 3.1Nex ultimate \| BK DC200 \| (5)Mitras 6200s \|(4) Vortech MP40QD \| 3155 ATO \| Schuran CaRx \| Carbon-Doser \| Red Dragon return \| 500G Starphire FOWLR \| BK SM200 \| (6) Tunze 6105

01/31/2008, 10:19 AM	#12
Beanfish Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Imperial, MO Posts: 121	imo...I'd go slow.

01/31/2008, 10:22 AM	#13
Reefmore Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Covington Georgia Posts: 51	Only bad things happen fast... __________________ Russ 90 AGA Coralife 220 Skimmer 30 Gallon Sump w/Mag 9.5 Dual 150 MH HQI 194w Actinics Current Tank Info: 90 AGA Reef

01/31/2008, 10:34 AM	#14
Simran Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 65	well in very established tanks i see that the sand bed is really dirty. wouldnt dumping that into a new tank stir all of that up and create a spike in ammonia? __________________ Satsimran Current Tank Info: 75 gallon bow front reef with 40 gallon sump

01/31/2008, 11:06 AM	#15
jaw969 Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Centennial, CO Posts: 1,067	Yes it could..... I would never reuse sand (I always rinse it first). Waiting for your tank to cycle is always the best and safest way but..... I have had purchased contents of entire tanks and had to set them up immediately in a new tank. I have never had one live die from a lack of cycle. I believe this was due to the amount of live rock. My tanks always have atleast 1.5 lbs of rock per gallon but usually 2 lbs per gallon. In saltwater though patience is a virtue! __________________ How do you kick this habit anyway.......saltwater addicts anonymous? Current Tank Info: Oceanic 120 RR-Aquamedic Ocean light-Tunze 9015-Will be a mixed reef

01/31/2008, 11:41 AM	#16
FranktheTankTx Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 2,306	It's really quite simple. If you take LR out of an existing tank that has a bio load then that LR has an established bacteria colony to handle that particular bio load. However, if you do not match the bio load of the previous tank then the bacteria colony will starve and some will die off. Of course, there are water parameters to be concerned with as well. Freshly made saltwater is not mature and the parameters are not stable yet. There is not a right or wrong way to do this. You could get very established and cured rock but no way are you going to then throw 7 fish and 20 corals into a brand new tank... at least I hope not! So that LR will lose a majority of it's bacteria colony. As most suggest, it's best to take it slow. This is not a cheap hobby... don't rush your investment. __________________ Frank the Tank "What, I thought we were in the trust tree... in the nest? Are we not?" Current Tank Info: Custom Rimless 60g (30.5"x24.5"x18.5")

01/31/2008, 12:42 PM	#17
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	Good answer Frank. Cyling is mainly about giving the bacteria time to handle the bioload that you are going to introduce to the tank. There is a time factor that can't be increased(that much) for the bacteria to increase their numbers. If you think your tank is ready then add a good size raw shrimp for two days----fish it out--if there was no ammonia spike then you know you tank can handle the biomass of a good size shrimp (Some reefers use raw shrimp to induce the bacteria to multiply---not necessarily faster--just to induce the cycling practise) edit: this is what greenbean suggested above by adding ammonia----but if it your own tank and there is no rush like in a commercial lab why not go the more natural way with the raw shrimp instead of adding straight ammonia to your tank __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock