Ca & Kh dosing.....

Moosetache · 04/12/2008, 02:02 PM

Just wondering how long I should wait between dosing each? twice in the last week I have dosed and had a precipitate situation. I know it doesnt really hurt anything, but does cause the rocks to whiten, and it is just annoying.

Ca was at 380 and Kh was 7 before the dose....

tmz · 04/12/2008, 02:25 PM

What exactly do you dose and how do you dose it?

Aquarist007 · 04/12/2008, 02:27 PM

first of all measure what the existing ca and dKH are.

I would suggest you go on the two part dosing method using either Randy's recipe or b-ionics two part. It brings alot of stability and consistentancy to calcium, alkalinity and magnesium

If you dkH is still low at 7 then I would suggest you bring it up to 10 by using kent super dkH--there is a chemistry dosing calculator on the first thread in the reef chemistry forum that will help you
I would also bring up the calcium level to 420 or so using kent turbo calcium but first check the magnesium level--it needs to be at 1300 ppm to support that level of calcium

Once you have brought up your levels where you want them then use the two part recommended dosage for one week and re measure your tank parameters. Adjust up or down and repeat the process for another week. By one month you should be okay

Moosetache · 04/12/2008, 02:32 PM

Hey Capn.....
I use Kent Marine Part A and B.

Ca was 380
Kh was 7....

Dosed 150 ml of each about 5 minutes apart. I currently have a complete white out going on.

I strive for 420 and 10, but have lots of trouble keeping it stable there....i.e. 2 days ago, Ca was 480 and Kh was 11. Today, 380 and 7. Not sure why the large fluctuations, but there is a lot of Coralline and I think my elkhorns are sucking it up.

Moosetache · 04/12/2008, 02:34 PM

another thing I am concerned with is that my substrate is very hard in some spots....thinking of adding a diamond goby to assist in the turnover of the substrate. Could these calcium and alkalinity problems have anything to do with that?

ahullsb · 04/12/2008, 02:40 PM

I would wait longer than 5 minutes between dosing calcium and alkalinity. You could do one in the morning, and one at night for example. I would wait at least an hour though if you are seeing precipitation. What kind of substrate do you have?

Aquarist007 · 04/12/2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moosetache
another thing I am concerned with is that my substrate is very hard in some spots....thinking of adding a diamond goby to assist in the turnover of the substrate. Could these calcium and alkalinity problems have anything to do with that?

no they don't just aging of the argonite--necessarius snails are great--they live in the substrate and keep it from clumping--also clean it up

Aquarist007 · 04/12/2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moosetache
Hey Capn.....
I use Kent Marine Part A and B.

Ca was 380
Kh was 7....

Dosed 150 ml of each about 5 minutes apart. I currently have a complete white out going on.

I strive for 420 and 10, but have lots of trouble keeping it stable there....i.e. 2 days ago, Ca was 480 and Kh was 11. Today, 380 and 7. Not sure why the large fluctuations, but there is a lot of Coralline and I think my elkhorns are sucking it up.

IMO the problem is the low dKH--is the pH also really low
and or:

what is your mag level?

Moosetache · 04/12/2008, 03:10 PM

Mag level should be high enough....havent tested it recently because I dont have a kit and neither does my LFS...but was 1250 and I have been dosing twice a week since, just 10 mg each time.

The Ph is not low at all, it has actually been high lately, about 8.4 as of yesterday.

tmz · 04/12/2008, 03:50 PM

A couple of things:

The rapid drop in calcium and alkalinity is probably due to precipitation from over saturation.

The solidifying of your sand comes from the deposit of biologicaly formed calcium carbonate crystals by bacteria in the sand bed. The crystals casue the sand to clump and solidify. This condition is usualy associated with sandbeds in tanks that are overstaturated with calcium carbonate.

It seems as though you are overdosing and maintaining an overstaurated level of calcium and alkalinity.This results in swings in levels,hard sand and the appearance of chaulky material when it precipitates. You have more calcium in the water than the water can hold. Stop dosing for a week or so and recheck your test kits.

Moosetache · 04/12/2008, 04:56 PM

I will give that a try, however, I will predict levels in the low 200's and kh near 3.

bertoni · 04/12/2008, 06:38 PM

Many tanks require daily dosing. I'd try that approach, personally. The very large doses that are being added can contribute to the precipitation problem.

jallen100 · 04/12/2008, 07:24 PM

I dose B Ionic alk and cal every day. 1ml for every 4gal of water. I have had really good luck doing this and my levels stay perfect (knock on wood).

Aquarist007 · 04/12/2008, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tmz
A couple of things:

The rapid drop in calcium and alkalinity is probably due to precipitation from over saturation.

The solidifying of your sand comes from the deposit of biologicaly formed calcium carbonate crystals by bacteria in the sand bed. The crystals casue the sand to clump and solidify. This condition is usualy associated with sandbeds in tanks that are overstaturated with calcium carbonate.

It seems as though you are overdosing and maintaining an overstaurated level of calcium and alkalinity.This results in swings in levels,hard sand and the appearance of chaulky material when it precipitates. You have more calcium in the water than the water can hold. Stop dosing for a week or so and recheck your test kits.

Tom how can his tank be over saturated with carbonate if his dKh level is only 7?

IMO he is not dosing that much---10ml for 65 gals--mine takes 90 mL of each 2 part for 200 gal water column

Moosetache · 04/12/2008, 10:29 PM

quick correction capn.....I usually dose about 150 ml of each almost daily.....I started at 50 ml of each and I was ALWAYS way low....so I moved up to 100 ml of each, and was still only at about 300 and 8, so I started dosing more Ca, like 150 ml and 100 of kh and that led to my kh being low, so I eventually got to 150 of each per day and got to 400 and 9-10.

That progression was made over about a month and a half time period, so I didnt jump the gun on anything.

tmz · 04/12/2008, 11:12 PM

Scott, He said he had precipitation and a snow storm. That occurs with oversaturat.If he is testing and the tank is precipitating , I think it is very possible to get low readings.
The hard sand and cloudiness and heavy coraline growth point to oversaturation. Also , he is using 150ml of each for 65g vs your 90ml each for 200g,roughly 5x per gallon more.I agree with Jonathan Bertoni that smaller daily doses would be better after things settle down.

bertoni · 04/12/2008, 11:37 PM

Most every tank is supersaturated with respect to calcium carbonate:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...f/index.php#12

Low dKH is fairly common after a precipitation event.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 04/13/2008, 08:44 AM

I agree that the 150 mL all at once to a 65 is WAY too much if using a high pH two part system. That is about 2.2 meq/L (6 dKH) of alkalinity all at once (assuming 50 actual gallons to tank volume), and might boost the pH way out of the acceptable range, leadign to precipitation. I'm not sure how high the Kent pH is, but B-ionic and many other products have too big of a pH rise that way. the reason the alk does not rise more is due to the precipitation.

If you need a very high dose (can't see why you would, but if you do), and you cannot spread it out over time each day, then I'd use one that has no pH raising effect, like B-ionic Bicarbonate, or my DIY recipe #2.

Aquarist007 · 04/13/2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bertoni
Most every tank is supersaturated with respect to calcium carbonate:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...f/index.php#12

Low dKH is fairly common after a precipitation event.

Bertoni, in his original post he stated his dKH was 7 before he dosed--or maybe I am reading that wrong

tmz · 04/13/2008, 12:15 PM

Scott, he said he had been dosing almost daily which could mean some precipitation was ongoing even if not as severe as the snow storm. This could explain the low reading ,assuming tests are accurate.

Aquarist007 · 04/13/2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tmz
Scott, he said he had been dosing almost daily which could mean some precipitation was ongoing even if not as severe as the snow storm. This could explain the low reading ,assuming tests are accurate.

ok got ya--thanks

Moosetache · 04/13/2008, 08:24 PM

Well, that is a lot of information, I guess I am going to just dose about 50 ml of each a day, one in the evening and one in the morning to spread it out more and avoid the enhanced chance of precipitate. does this seem like a decent approach?

Aquarist007 · 04/13/2008, 08:59 PM

my advice stands as in the above post--bring your levels up first using the products or similar I suggested and then use the b-ionics to maintain them.

Moosetache · 04/13/2008, 09:59 PM

of course after I wrote that earlier, I harvested some of my chaeto in my fuge, and then had another small "cloudy" situation on my hands.....I have just had terrible luck holding levels in this tank. I will work on you advice though capn, as I have had pretty good luck following you in the past.
Where do you get your b-ionics from?

Aquarist007 · 04/13/2008, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moosetache
of course after I wrote that earlier, I harvested some of my chaeto in my fuge, and then had another small "cloudy" situation on my hands.....I have just had terrible luck holding levels in this tank. I will work on you advice though capn, as I have had pretty good luck following you in the past.
Where do you get your b-ionics from?

Ah thanks---most of the time my views or advice is a reflection of many here however. In this case I feel confident in my advice due to the presence of respected mentors like R HF and Bertoni and Tmz

I get mine locally at www.mops.ca but if you go to their site --there is a US site listed---and it is mail order

04/12/2008, 02:27 PM	#3
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	first of all measure what the existing ca and dKH are. I would suggest you go on the two part dosing method using either Randy's recipe or b-ionics two part. It brings alot of stability and consistentancy to calcium, alkalinity and magnesium If you dkH is still low at 7 then I would suggest you bring it up to 10 by using kent super dkH--there is a chemistry dosing calculator on the first thread in the reef chemistry forum that will help you I would also bring up the calcium level to 420 or so using kent turbo calcium but first check the magnesium level--it needs to be at 1300 ppm to support that level of calcium Once you have brought up your levels where you want them then use the two part recommended dosage for one week and re measure your tank parameters. Adjust up or down and repeat the process for another week. By one month you should be okay __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

04/12/2008, 02:40 PM	#6
ahullsb Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: sacramento, ca Posts: 2,729	I would wait longer than 5 minutes between dosing calcium and alkalinity. You could do one in the morning, and one at night for example. I would wait at least an hour though if you are seeing precipitation. What kind of substrate do you have? __________________ Andy Sacramento, CA Current Tank Info: 55 gallon reef w/20 gallon sump/ER135/ 75 pounds of live rock, 4 in sandbed, 2 b&w ocellaris clowns, yellow watchman/pistol, rosy scaled wrasse, Mystery wrasse, Copperbanded Butterfly, Lighting 48" outer orbit 2 150 mh/ 4 t5 actinics

04/12/2008, 03:50 PM	#10
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	A couple of things: The rapid drop in calcium and alkalinity is probably due to precipitation from over saturation. The solidifying of your sand comes from the deposit of biologicaly formed calcium carbonate crystals by bacteria in the sand bed. The crystals casue the sand to clump and solidify. This condition is usualy associated with sandbeds in tanks that are overstaturated with calcium carbonate. It seems as though you are overdosing and maintaining an overstaurated level of calcium and alkalinity.This results in swings in levels,hard sand and the appearance of chaulky material when it precipitates. You have more calcium in the water than the water can hold. Stop dosing for a week or so and recheck your test kits. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

04/12/2008, 11:12 PM	#16
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	Scott, He said he had precipitation and a snow storm. That occurs with oversaturat.If he is testing and the tank is precipitating , I think it is very possible to get low readings. The hard sand and cloudiness and heavy coraline growth point to oversaturation. Also , he is using 150ml of each for 65g vs your 90ml each for 200g,roughly 5x per gallon more.I agree with Jonathan Bertoni that smaller daily doses would be better after things settle down. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

04/12/2008, 11:37 PM	#17
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Most every tank is supersaturated with respect to calcium carbonate: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...f/index.php#12 Low dKH is fairly common after a precipitation event. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/12/2008, 02:02 PM	#1
Moosetache Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 552	Ca & Kh dosing..... Just wondering how long I should wait between dosing each? twice in the last week I have dosed and had a precipitate situation. I know it doesnt really hurt anything, but does cause the rocks to whiten, and it is just annoying. Ca was at 380 and Kh was 7 before the dose....

04/12/2008, 02:25 PM	#2
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	What exactly do you dose and how do you dose it? __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

04/12/2008, 02:32 PM	#4
Moosetache Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 552	Hey Capn..... I use Kent Marine Part A and B. Ca was 380 Kh was 7.... Dosed 150 ml of each about 5 minutes apart. I currently have a complete white out going on. I strive for 420 and 10, but have lots of trouble keeping it stable there....i.e. 2 days ago, Ca was 480 and Kh was 11. Today, 380 and 7. Not sure why the large fluctuations, but there is a lot of Coralline and I think my elkhorns are sucking it up.

04/12/2008, 02:34 PM	#5
Moosetache Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 552	another thing I am concerned with is that my substrate is very hard in some spots....thinking of adding a diamond goby to assist in the turnover of the substrate. Could these calcium and alkalinity problems have anything to do with that?

04/12/2008, 03:10 PM	#9
Moosetache Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 552	Mag level should be high enough....havent tested it recently because I dont have a kit and neither does my LFS...but was 1250 and I have been dosing twice a week since, just 10 mg each time. The Ph is not low at all, it has actually been high lately, about 8.4 as of yesterday.

04/12/2008, 04:56 PM	#11
Moosetache Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 552	I will give that a try, however, I will predict levels in the low 200's and kh near 3.

04/12/2008, 06:38 PM	#12
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Many tanks require daily dosing. I'd try that approach, personally. The very large doses that are being added can contribute to the precipitation problem. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/12/2008, 07:24 PM	#13
jallen100 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Blacklick, Ohio Posts: 220	I dose B Ionic alk and cal every day. 1ml for every 4gal of water. I have had really good luck doing this and my levels stay perfect (knock on wood).

04/12/2008, 10:29 PM	#15
Moosetache Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 552	quick correction capn.....I usually dose about 150 ml of each almost daily.....I started at 50 ml of each and I was ALWAYS way low....so I moved up to 100 ml of each, and was still only at about 300 and 8, so I started dosing more Ca, like 150 ml and 100 of kh and that led to my kh being low, so I eventually got to 150 of each per day and got to 400 and 9-10. That progression was made over about a month and a half time period, so I didnt jump the gun on anything.

04/13/2008, 08:44 AM	#18
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I agree that the 150 mL all at once to a 65 is WAY too much if using a high pH two part system. That is about 2.2 meq/L (6 dKH) of alkalinity all at once (assuming 50 actual gallons to tank volume), and might boost the pH way out of the acceptable range, leadign to precipitation. I'm not sure how high the Kent pH is, but B-ionic and many other products have too big of a pH rise that way. the reason the alk does not rise more is due to the precipitation. If you need a very high dose (can't see why you would, but if you do), and you cannot spread it out over time each day, then I'd use one that has no pH raising effect, like B-ionic Bicarbonate, or my DIY recipe #2. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

04/13/2008, 12:15 PM	#20
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	Scott, he said he had been dosing almost daily which could mean some precipitation was ongoing even if not as severe as the snow storm. This could explain the low reading ,assuming tests are accurate. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

04/13/2008, 08:24 PM	#22
Moosetache Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 552	Well, that is a lot of information, I guess I am going to just dose about 50 ml of each a day, one in the evening and one in the morning to spread it out more and avoid the enhanced chance of precipitate. does this seem like a decent approach?

04/13/2008, 08:59 PM	#23
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	my advice stands as in the above post--bring your levels up first using the products or similar I suggested and then use the b-ionics to maintain them. __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

04/13/2008, 09:59 PM	#24
Moosetache Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 552	of course after I wrote that earlier, I harvested some of my chaeto in my fuge, and then had another small "cloudy" situation on my hands.....I have just had terrible luck holding levels in this tank. I will work on you advice though capn, as I have had pretty good luck following you in the past. Where do you get your b-ionics from?