Advice oh wise ones

Skunkbudfour20 · 06/18/2008, 06:48 PM

First off, sorry about the rant but some background always helps.

Hey all, this is my first post here at RC, been a member of P-fury for some time. About a year ago got into the saltwater scene after a friend slowly nuked his tank, and wanted to help him out so i started reading. a year later after all disregard for what i told him, it went under and i acquired the tank and some rock, which needed a fresh water soak and a reboot.

A little about my current setup my first salt tank:

55gal tank with 10gal fuge and 10 gal sump
4 bulb 2xODNO fixture
1200gph return pump with SCWD
2 yellow tangs
domino damsel
coral beauty
Tomato clown
Condylactis anemone
rock anemone

Pretty basic stuff, had this tank for over a year now.... time to upgrade right!?

In the new house my dad an i built (still finishing) we made room for an in wall tank, ran 2 dedicated breakers, water and a drain behind.... and now theres a 6' 155 gal bowfront tank from AGA with corner overflows and 2" drains
and a 125 gal sump in the room...

Quick video of where i am at currently:

this tank was setup before i aquired it, so i have easily 350lbs of live rock and rubble in the sump with a mag9 keeping turnover, had to add the sand and some water into the tank to keep it living so i think i have a good start. also got a 3x 175 MH system with a single digital ballast

Yesterday i ordered:
Precision Marine Bullet 3 skimmer
Pan World 200 pump for skimmer
7 stage RO/DI unit
New Ushio 14K bulbs
8000gph return pump
bulkheads (tank wasnt drilled for returns, only drains)
and some other small things

heres where i need some advice
PLUMBING (AS FROM VIEWING SIDE)

i will be combining the 2" drains (green) into one pipe, and then splitting them into 2 again after they pass through the stand, i could just make 2 holes and have one overflow go one place, and another to the skimmer compartment, but i decided to save space and cut down on holes drilled in my stand... also keeping to one side will give me more room for the returns
I know 8000gph pump (black) as my main source of feeding the system (5 separate returns (red)+ a chiller, calcium reactor, and one spare), Its obviously far to much turnover for the skimmer and sump to deal with and cuts down on contact time with the media... so the plan is to bypass over 1/2 of the sump, and the skimmer and just dump most of the water back into a bubble box, near the return pump allowing some contact with small rubble, and carbon media, will also place a valve on this line for adjustment if necessary...

I havent plumbed anything after the T and Ball valves under the stand for drains. and only built the manifold from the stand up, so my in sump planning is gunna have to change because of the skimmer, now the skimmer will be placed on a stand to the right of the sump...

How would you place the submersible return pump, the external skimmer pump and the drains (2 from tank, 1 from skimmer) to keep things most effective?
and i planned on using bubble boxes for the drains so...

for what i plan on otherwise: (feel free to make recommendations!)
in the future mostly Sps dominated/ some lps, maybe softies and some zoas .. will be stocking all the sand and rock (some fish) and letting a good cycle happen... also ordering a calcium reactor, and checking out the new Digital Aquatics RE when its released, otherwise sticking with the Aquacontroller Jr

THANKS SO MUCH

jthao · 06/18/2008, 07:21 PM

so what do you need help with again?? sounds like everything is going good. my only suggestion (I suggest this because I wished some one suggested this to me in the beginning) is to think about everything twice, because once the plumbing is done, it's a PITA to redo.

Skunkbudfour20 · 06/18/2008, 09:21 PM

I need help with how much drain flow i should allow to go past the skimmer pump, and if i should place the skimmer pump intake in the same compartment as the return pump beings its a 8000gph pump powering my main manifold? ( at total of 7 ball valves, 5 returns to tank, one chiller and one ca reactor) even if its pumping 6000gph after head loss and whatnot isnt that too much turnover going past my skimmer?

newreefbishop · 06/19/2008, 08:20 AM

Depends on the skimmer.....for instance Tunze need relatively calm water.....Some skimmers need alot of flow running past it.

Sk8r · 06/19/2008, 09:18 AM

I have an Aqua C with its intake right next to an Iwaki main pump intake. It skims nicely enough.

Playa-1 · 06/19/2008, 01:21 PM

I would not combine the drains. Take a proactive approach to potential drain problems and keep them separate.

I would use a closed Loop for your circulation in the tank and use much less flow thru the sump. You only need a return pump to push about 1000 gph thru the sump with a good skimmer. Then use a different pump on a closed loop to push however much turnover that you need for your designated livestock list. Then you could use the 8000 gph pump for a closed loop. Obviously you would need to rethink your plumbing to make this work. This will be much less likely to give you horrible drain noise and micro-bubbles. You need to also take a hard look at the 2" drain pipe capacity and the amount of volume that your planning to put thru them, especially if your going to tie them into one drain line.

Just my 2 cents.

Playa-1 · 06/19/2008, 01:34 PM

Welcome to Reef Central young Grasshoppa

Skunkbudfour20 · 06/19/2008, 02:05 PM

Thanks guys... back to the drawing board

stingythingy45 · 06/19/2008, 02:09 PM

Look into skimmers that are recirculators.
That way you can just run 1/2 your overflow to the skimmer and 1/2 to the refugium,return in the middle.

Skunkbudfour20 · 06/19/2008, 04:47 PM

Well beings i just spent 800$ or so on a new Precision Marine skimmer and pump, i dont think i will be looking at skimmers for quite some time... i think i have it figured out tho

Esquare · 06/19/2008, 06:33 PM

I just checked in to see where the wise ones were.

Other then my wisea** that is.

Skunkbudfour20 · 06/20/2008, 07:50 PM

well my theory is a smart *** is always better than a dumb *** so...

i think i have most of the kinks worked out, and i will be test firing the system mid next week pending the arrival of my Precision Marine Bullet3 skimmer, Pan world 200 pump, return pump, and RO/DI unit... most of it should be here tomorrow, but some things are Monday so... hopefully my water filter comes first, so i can start storing some salt water a few days in advance...

Out of curiosity... does anybody here know the lifespan of oscillating pop-up sprinklers in a salt tank? i found a DIY and tore 3 apart for some water current change, one in the back sweeping 200 degrees (some deflects off the glass to get behind the rock) and one each corner in front of the overflows set at 90 degrees

I also setup a closed loop to feed my main manifold, and filled the tank with fresh water to remove all the glue and whatnot before live rock and the sump comes in contact with fresh plumbing... Come to find the seal in my spare pump is screwed up, and started leaking the second i fired it up... tomorrow the silicone will be dry

makin an update vid for my topic at P-fury... so i will post it here as well

Thanks again

seapug · 06/20/2008, 08:04 PM

Looks good.
One minute you're helping a friend, the next you're cutting holes in walls and pouring your paychecks into a glass box. Funny what this hobby does to people.

Skunkbudfour20 · 06/20/2008, 08:20 PM

Really i have always loved salt, but thought it was completely out of reach for somebody to just "get into"... but after about 2 full years of reading, a couple hours per day... (lots on this forum, never was a member sadly) i kinda have a grasp on the whole picture... although i have never setup a full blown reef tank, i have about 5 FOWLR tanks under my belt, one of my own and mostly custom installs for friends or family friends... just had to take the plunge for myself

and as for dumping paychecks... this hobby should be illegal cause its far more expensive and addicting than crack
i will snap a few pics next time i am around their houses!

is there anybody from Montana "round these parts"?

Skunkbudfour20 · 06/25/2008, 12:31 AM

tank is up and running guys! i will post an update video tomorrow sometime...

kau_cinta_ku · 06/25/2008, 02:28 AM

you really only want 500-800 gph running through the sump on a 155 gal. tank. the rest of your flow should be from a closed loop or powerheads. running to much flow through your sump mean more micro bubbles, and the equipmint you have in the sump won't work as good.

joshallan86 · 06/25/2008, 05:28 AM

how much longer until you can start adding livestock to it? it looks good so far.
josh

Skunkbudfour20 · 06/25/2008, 01:08 PM

500 to 800 gph? that means it would turn over the entire water column 2 times per hour, and that sounds a little weak for me... and right now i have 0 bubbles making it past my baffles and that pump is rated for 8000gph (minus head loss from powering 5 returns) so i am estimating atleast 4000 total, and only 1/2 of that flows through my rock and skimmer intake, the rest dumps right before the pump..

i will be transferring my fish sometime in the next few days, tonight i will take about 50% of my rock, and about 30% of the water from my current tank, as well as a sponge i have been letting soak in my sump... as soon as the water params are perfect, and as close to my other tank as i can get it... as of now things are running smooth (knocks on wood) and perfectly as planned

kau_cinta_ku · 06/25/2008, 01:11 PM

3-5x turnover of the main tank is the main rule. but really it is what your skimmer can handle. if your flow is more than your skimmer can handle then it won't work as good as it should.

Skunkbudfour20 · 06/25/2008, 06:54 PM

well my skimmer is rated to 400gals, and the skimmer pump itself is 1750 gph,
and 5 times turnover of my main tank would be 800 gph ish... ??

this whole thing does not compute... clearly

therefore "main rules" regarding turnover should prob be thrown out the window

Skunkbudfour20 · 06/25/2008, 11:19 PM

singold · 06/26/2008, 11:49 AM

Looks like your well on your way!

Skunkbudfour20 · 07/29/2008, 10:26 PM

Quick update, Went camping for 3 days to return home finding a severe storm flooded the fish room and left 1/2 inch of mud on the floor, the power outage kicked off the skimmer for 24+ hours and caused an algae bloom over the sand, and slightly on the front panel... lucky i didnt stay longer!

upgraded the lighting system and added a 400w to the center, and an icecap 660 ballast to power the actinic lighting ( 3 bulbs) also added a phosban and carbon reactor, things are going great so far.... water is in spec, including cal, dkh is slightly high but, only around 14... 2 days and 40 gals of water changes brought most back after the skimmer outage

stock list includes
2 Yellow tangs
Blonde naso tang
Tennent tang
Powder blue tang
Coral beauty
Royal grama
2 False perc clowns
2 Green chromis (had 5 ordered, and 3 were doa)
Haddoni Carpet anemone (which clowns havent touched yet)
Rock anemone
3 Emerald crabs
Serpent starfish
Breeding pair of coral banded shrimp
some snails and hermits
Misc others (zoos, mushrooms etc)

Heres a few update videos (sorry for the shaky hands, i was jacked up on energy drinks):

Today after adding the 3 new tangs, anemone, zoos and "mystery" frag... didnt realize the cloceups were so blurry till now, sorry! will get the rebel and snap some shots soon for ID

thanks again for your help!

Will be adding the 55 gal as a fuge this week so i will add another vid later
Thanks again!

06/18/2008, 06:48 PM	#1
Skunkbudfour20 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 107	Advice oh wise ones First off, sorry about the rant but some background always helps. Hey all, this is my first post here at RC, been a member of P-fury for some time. About a year ago got into the saltwater scene after a friend slowly nuked his tank, and wanted to help him out so i started reading. a year later after all disregard for what i told him, it went under and i acquired the tank and some rock, which needed a fresh water soak and a reboot. A little about my current setup my first salt tank: 55gal tank with 10gal fuge and 10 gal sump 4 bulb 2xODNO fixture 1200gph return pump with SCWD 2 yellow tangs domino damsel coral beauty Tomato clown Condylactis anemone rock anemone Pretty basic stuff, had this tank for over a year now.... time to upgrade right!? In the new house my dad an i built (still finishing) we made room for an in wall tank, ran 2 dedicated breakers, water and a drain behind.... and now theres a 6' 155 gal bowfront tank from AGA with corner overflows and 2" drains and a 125 gal sump in the room... Quick video of where i am at currently: this tank was setup before i aquired it, so i have easily 350lbs of live rock and rubble in the sump with a mag9 keeping turnover, had to add the sand and some water into the tank to keep it living so i think i have a good start. also got a 3x 175 MH system with a single digital ballast Yesterday i ordered: Precision Marine Bullet 3 skimmer Pan World 200 pump for skimmer 7 stage RO/DI unit New Ushio 14K bulbs 8000gph return pump bulkheads (tank wasnt drilled for returns, only drains) and some other small things heres where i need some advice PLUMBING (AS FROM VIEWING SIDE) i will be combining the 2" drains (green) into one pipe, and then splitting them into 2 again after they pass through the stand, i could just make 2 holes and have one overflow go one place, and another to the skimmer compartment, but i decided to save space and cut down on holes drilled in my stand... also keeping to one side will give me more room for the returns I know 8000gph pump (black) as my main source of feeding the system (5 separate returns (red)+ a chiller, calcium reactor, and one spare), Its obviously far to much turnover for the skimmer and sump to deal with and cuts down on contact time with the media... so the plan is to bypass over 1/2 of the sump, and the skimmer and just dump most of the water back into a bubble box, near the return pump allowing some contact with small rubble, and carbon media, will also place a valve on this line for adjustment if necessary... I havent plumbed anything after the T and Ball valves under the stand for drains. and only built the manifold from the stand up, so my in sump planning is gunna have to change because of the skimmer, now the skimmer will be placed on a stand to the right of the sump... How would you place the submersible return pump, the external skimmer pump and the drains (2 from tank, 1 from skimmer) to keep things most effective? and i planned on using bubble boxes for the drains so... for what i plan on otherwise: (feel free to make recommendations!) in the future mostly Sps dominated/ some lps, maybe softies and some zoas .. will be stocking all the sand and rock (some fish) and letting a good cycle happen... also ordering a calcium reactor, and checking out the new Digital Aquatics RE when its released, otherwise sticking with the Aquacontroller Jr THANKS SO MUCH

06/18/2008, 07:21 PM	#2
jthao Super Saiyan Join Date: May 2007 Location: NorCal Posts: 2,522	so what do you need help with again?? sounds like everything is going good. my only suggestion (I suggest this because I wished some one suggested this to me in the beginning) is to think about everything twice, because once the plumbing is done, it's a PITA to redo. __________________ Elos 160xl \| Profilux 3.1Nex ultimate \| BK DC200 \| (5)Mitras 6200s \|(4) Vortech MP40QD \| 3155 ATO \| Schuran CaRx \| Carbon-Doser \| Red Dragon return \| 500G Starphire FOWLR \| BK SM200 \| (6) Tunze 6105

06/19/2008, 08:20 AM	#4
newreefbishop Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Fort Lauderdale Posts: 1,787	Depends on the skimmer.....for instance Tunze need relatively calm water.....Some skimmers need alot of flow running past it. __________________ Its not just a hobby, it's a lifestyle!!!! The 65 is gone the 110 is in, click the red house for the 110. *Updated Current Tank Info: 110 gal R/R AGA with 40 gallon DIY fuge/sump, 2 AI Sol Blue LED modules, RKL system, Vortech Powerheads, Softies, LPS and SPS. Fox Face, Coral Beauty, Goby, a mated pair of Midnight Black Photon Clowns, BTA, Sebae and small critters everywhere

06/19/2008, 09:18 AM	#5
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	I have an Aqua C with its intake right next to an Iwaki main pump intake. It skims nicely enough. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

06/19/2008, 01:21 PM	#6
Playa-1 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Laguna Niguel, CA Posts: 7,497	I would not combine the drains. Take a proactive approach to potential drain problems and keep them separate. I would use a closed Loop for your circulation in the tank and use much less flow thru the sump. You only need a return pump to push about 1000 gph thru the sump with a good skimmer. Then use a different pump on a closed loop to push however much turnover that you need for your designated livestock list. Then you could use the 8000 gph pump for a closed loop. Obviously you would need to rethink your plumbing to make this work. This will be much less likely to give you horrible drain noise and micro-bubbles. You need to also take a hard look at the 2" drain pipe capacity and the amount of volume that your planning to put thru them, especially if your going to tie them into one drain line. Just my 2 cents. Last edited by Playa-1; 06/19/2008 at 01:29 PM.

06/18/2008, 09:21 PM	#3
Skunkbudfour20 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 107	I need help with how much drain flow i should allow to go past the skimmer pump, and if i should place the skimmer pump intake in the same compartment as the return pump beings its a 8000gph pump powering my main manifold? ( at total of 7 ball valves, 5 returns to tank, one chiller and one ca reactor) even if its pumping 6000gph after head loss and whatnot isnt that too much turnover going past my skimmer?

06/19/2008, 01:34 PM	#7
Playa-1 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Laguna Niguel, CA Posts: 7,497	Welcome to Reef Central young Grasshoppa

06/19/2008, 02:05 PM	#8
Skunkbudfour20 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 107	Thanks guys... back to the drawing board

06/19/2008, 02:09 PM	#9
stingythingy45 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: MA Posts: 3,296	Look into skimmers that are recirculators. That way you can just run 1/2 your overflow to the skimmer and 1/2 to the refugium,return in the middle. __________________ Bob Current Tank Info: 90 gallon,mixed Reef,2-250 watt Optix 3 pendants(Phoenix 14K)2-54 watt T5 Super actnics ,ASM G-2 Gate/recirc mods,70 gal. basement sump,20L ref

06/19/2008, 04:47 PM	#10
Skunkbudfour20 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 107	Well beings i just spent 800$ or so on a new Precision Marine skimmer and pump, i dont think i will be looking at skimmers for quite some time... i think i have it figured out tho

06/19/2008, 06:33 PM	#11
Esquare Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lorain, Ohio Posts: 1,954	I just checked in to see where the wise ones were. Other then my wisea** that is. __________________ Eddie Current Tank Info: 40 Breeder with Dwarf Lionfish

06/20/2008, 07:50 PM	#12
Skunkbudfour20 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 107	well my theory is a smart * is always better than a dumb * so... i think i have most of the kinks worked out, and i will be test firing the system mid next week pending the arrival of my Precision Marine Bullet3 skimmer, Pan world 200 pump, return pump, and RO/DI unit... most of it should be here tomorrow, but some things are Monday so... hopefully my water filter comes first, so i can start storing some salt water a few days in advance... Out of curiosity... does anybody here know the lifespan of oscillating pop-up sprinklers in a salt tank? i found a DIY and tore 3 apart for some water current change, one in the back sweeping 200 degrees (some deflects off the glass to get behind the rock) and one each corner in front of the overflows set at 90 degrees I also setup a closed loop to feed my main manifold, and filled the tank with fresh water to remove all the glue and whatnot before live rock and the sump comes in contact with fresh plumbing... Come to find the seal in my spare pump is screwed up, and started leaking the second i fired it up... tomorrow the silicone will be dry makin an update vid for my topic at P-fury... so i will post it here as well Thanks again

06/20/2008, 08:04 PM	#13
seapug Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: 4980 ft. Posts: 7,954 Blog Entries: 1	Looks good. One minute you're helping a friend, the next you're cutting holes in walls and pouring your paychecks into a glass box. Funny what this hobby does to people. __________________ insert clever saying here. Current Tank Info: 200 gallon custom Marineland DD peninsular tank. LPS dominated mixed reef. Previous 90 gallon mixed reef TOTM April 2009.

06/20/2008, 08:20 PM	#14
Skunkbudfour20 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 107	Really i have always loved salt, but thought it was completely out of reach for somebody to just "get into"... but after about 2 full years of reading, a couple hours per day... (lots on this forum, never was a member sadly) i kinda have a grasp on the whole picture... although i have never setup a full blown reef tank, i have about 5 FOWLR tanks under my belt, one of my own and mostly custom installs for friends or family friends... just had to take the plunge for myself and as for dumping paychecks... this hobby should be illegal cause its far more expensive and addicting than crack i will snap a few pics next time i am around their houses! is there anybody from Montana "round these parts"?

06/25/2008, 12:31 AM	#15
Skunkbudfour20 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 107	tank is up and running guys! i will post an update video tomorrow sometime...

06/25/2008, 02:28 AM	#16
kau_cinta_ku Moved On Join Date: May 2005 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,669	you really only want 500-800 gph running through the sump on a 155 gal. tank. the rest of your flow should be from a closed loop or powerheads. running to much flow through your sump mean more micro bubbles, and the equipmint you have in the sump won't work as good.

06/25/2008, 05:28 AM	#17
joshallan86 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Tampa, Fl Posts: 163	how much longer until you can start adding livestock to it? it looks good so far. josh

06/25/2008, 01:08 PM	#18
Skunkbudfour20 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 107	500 to 800 gph? that means it would turn over the entire water column 2 times per hour, and that sounds a little weak for me... and right now i have 0 bubbles making it past my baffles and that pump is rated for 8000gph (minus head loss from powering 5 returns) so i am estimating atleast 4000 total, and only 1/2 of that flows through my rock and skimmer intake, the rest dumps right before the pump.. i will be transferring my fish sometime in the next few days, tonight i will take about 50% of my rock, and about 30% of the water from my current tank, as well as a sponge i have been letting soak in my sump... as soon as the water params are perfect, and as close to my other tank as i can get it... as of now things are running smooth (knocks on wood) and perfectly as planned

06/25/2008, 01:11 PM	#19
kau_cinta_ku Moved On Join Date: May 2005 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,669	3-5x turnover of the main tank is the main rule. but really it is what your skimmer can handle. if your flow is more than your skimmer can handle then it won't work as good as it should.

06/25/2008, 06:54 PM	#20
Skunkbudfour20 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 107	well my skimmer is rated to 400gals, and the skimmer pump itself is 1750 gph, and 5 times turnover of my main tank would be 800 gph ish... ?? this whole thing does not compute... clearly therefore "main rules" regarding turnover should prob be thrown out the window

06/25/2008, 11:19 PM	#21
Skunkbudfour20 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 107

06/26/2008, 11:49 AM	#22
singold Registered Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Lake Saint Louis, Missouri Posts: 1,827	Looks like your well on your way! __________________ "If there is no wind.....row." Current Tank Info: 75gal Reef w/29gal Refugium

07/29/2008, 10:26 PM	#23
Skunkbudfour20 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 107	Quick update, Went camping for 3 days to return home finding a severe storm flooded the fish room and left 1/2 inch of mud on the floor, the power outage kicked off the skimmer for 24+ hours and caused an algae bloom over the sand, and slightly on the front panel... lucky i didnt stay longer! upgraded the lighting system and added a 400w to the center, and an icecap 660 ballast to power the actinic lighting ( 3 bulbs) also added a phosban and carbon reactor, things are going great so far.... water is in spec, including cal, dkh is slightly high but, only around 14... 2 days and 40 gals of water changes brought most back after the skimmer outage stock list includes 2 Yellow tangs Blonde naso tang Tennent tang Powder blue tang Coral beauty Royal grama 2 False perc clowns 2 Green chromis (had 5 ordered, and 3 were doa) Haddoni Carpet anemone (which clowns havent touched yet) Rock anemone 3 Emerald crabs Serpent starfish Breeding pair of coral banded shrimp some snails and hermits Misc others (zoos, mushrooms etc) Heres a few update videos (sorry for the shaky hands, i was jacked up on energy drinks): Today after adding the 3 new tangs, anemone, zoos and "mystery" frag... didnt realize the cloceups were so blurry till now, sorry! will get the rebel and snap some shots soon for ID thanks again for your help! Will be adding the 55 gal as a fuge this week so i will add another vid later Thanks again!