Invert Die Off

jpaprota · 07/29/2008, 06:53 AM

hi folks. use this site all the time, but first time posting.
got a real big problem and NOBODY could seem to figure it out. hope someone out there can help.

i have (make that HAD) a 75g reef. was doing great for 3yrs until about 2mos ago when my bubble tip vomited itself up for no apparent reason. removed it really fast, so it never decomposed. then, my urchin went bald and after that, it seemed all my inverts followed suit: 3 emerald crabs, 1 sally lightfoot, 2 cleaner shrimp, ALL snails and hermit crabs, brittle/serpent stars, linckia, and all corals (i keep mostly soft)... zoa remain, but stay closed. fish don't seem to notice anything; they just keep eating.

so, i started with a big h2o change; 25%. did that every other week for 3wks. zoa never opened up, but threw a few turbo's in anyway. they never moved from the spot they landed and died in 2wks. changed the h20 again and put in 2 new chemipures, polyfilter, and purigen. even got a new skimmer (bermuda, i HIGHLY recommend it), but no luck.

went to the fish store and had them check my h20. everything was fine. asked them to check for copper (although i never used it); copper = 0.

current h2o parameters:
salinity 31ppt
ammonia, nitrites, phos = 0
nitrates = 5
DkH = 11
pH = 8.2
temp = 74-76

any ideas? tank is slowly getting overgrown with algae and is driving me nuts! around the time of the crash, i added 1 new piece of LR, but i presume it's purely coincidental (unless there was some kind of toxin exuding slug in there).

Agu · 07/29/2008, 12:43 PM

Did you have the LFS check your salinity ?

Is your thermometer accurate ?

jpaprota · 07/29/2008, 01:31 PM

i'm pretty sure the thermometer is accurate, but i guess with all the $ i've literally flushed down the toilet a new one wouldn't be all that unreasonable.

i check my salinity with a refractometer and calibrate it every month or so. store checked it as well and everything seems kosher.

mille239 · 07/29/2008, 02:04 PM

I'm sorry about your losses... it does sound perplexing, and while reading your post, in the back of my mind I kept thinking some metal (such as copper) is being introduced or has been introduced, but as you noted at the end you had the LFS test for copper.

What types of pumps do you have? is it possible a magnetic drive pump might be corroding (I don't know what you would test for, other than taking the pumps apart and observing)

Possible other culprits may be stray electrical current in the tank, or something toxic arriving on the latest piece of live rock you introduced...

Hopefully someone else can help you figure this out, because in a 3 month span, it can't be a coincidence that every invert died.

good luck

Diatome · 07/29/2008, 02:15 PM

What kind of algae are you seeing? If you see stringy algae, brownish in color, you could have dinoflagelletes. I would do a search here on dino. I had it and my astreas all dropped off the sides. My zoas were closed up and the fish were content and I was stumped at first. Did awater change, which is a no no for dino as it feeds them somehow and they just exlplode. I ended up with brown water and what looked like hair algae everywhere. I stopped water changes and stopped running everything except large amounts of carbon. Once I dropped my light cycle back and upped my PH, the dino died off. There many kidns in teh world but what appears in tanks is affected by PH. The stuff in the gulf of mexico, that causes red tide, isn't. Only thing I cna think of that would affect those types of inverts, other than copper.

The Saltman · 07/29/2008, 02:21 PM

Just a thought. Do you have a grounding probe? Could be some sort of stray voltage from a pump or some sort? The only other thought that comes to mind is the 1 piece of rock you added around the time of the crash. Was it fully cured? If enough die-off was on the rock it could have created an ammonia spike which started a chain reaction of deaths.

The Saltman · 07/29/2008, 02:23 PM

I also would increase water changes to weekly 25% for some sort of toxin that may have gotten in your tank. The solution to pollution is dilution.

jpaprota · 07/29/2008, 03:01 PM

diatome: interesting you should ask about that. i DO have a lot of what i presumed to be brown algae... only thing is the tangs won't touch it and it is encrusting everything. it actually peels off. not what i would describe as "hairy", though. figured it was always there, but kept undercontroll with the clean-up crew. how high did you push the pH?

i'll put a ground in and check the pumps (tunze) for leaching metal, but they're only a few mos old. just changed the h20 over the weekend.

07/29/2008, 06:53 AM	#1
jpaprota Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: ALLENTOWN, PA Posts: 3	Invert Die Off hi folks. use this site all the time, but first time posting. got a real big problem and NOBODY could seem to figure it out. hope someone out there can help. i have (make that HAD) a 75g reef. was doing great for 3yrs until about 2mos ago when my bubble tip vomited itself up for no apparent reason. removed it really fast, so it never decomposed. then, my urchin went bald and after that, it seemed all my inverts followed suit: 3 emerald crabs, 1 sally lightfoot, 2 cleaner shrimp, ALL snails and hermit crabs, brittle/serpent stars, linckia, and all corals (i keep mostly soft)... zoa remain, but stay closed. fish don't seem to notice anything; they just keep eating. so, i started with a big h2o change; 25%. did that every other week for 3wks. zoa never opened up, but threw a few turbo's in anyway. they never moved from the spot they landed and died in 2wks. changed the h20 again and put in 2 new chemipures, polyfilter, and purigen. even got a new skimmer (bermuda, i HIGHLY recommend it), but no luck. went to the fish store and had them check my h20. everything was fine. asked them to check for copper (although i never used it); copper = 0. current h2o parameters: salinity 31ppt ammonia, nitrites, phos = 0 nitrates = 5 DkH = 11 pH = 8.2 temp = 74-76 any ideas? tank is slowly getting overgrown with algae and is driving me nuts! around the time of the crash, i added 1 new piece of LR, but i presume it's purely coincidental (unless there was some kind of toxin exuding slug in there). __________________ JP Current Tank Info: 75g REEF

07/29/2008, 12:43 PM	#2
Agu Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Sarasota, Florida Posts: 30,279	Did you have the LFS check your salinity ? Is your thermometer accurate ? __________________ Less technology , more biology . Current Tank Info: 30 gallon half cube and 5.5, both reef tanks

07/29/2008, 01:31 PM	#3
jpaprota Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: ALLENTOWN, PA Posts: 3	i'm pretty sure the thermometer is accurate, but i guess with all the $ i've literally flushed down the toilet a new one wouldn't be all that unreasonable. i check my salinity with a refractometer and calibrate it every month or so. store checked it as well and everything seems kosher. __________________ JP Current Tank Info: 75g REEF

07/29/2008, 02:04 PM	#4
mille239 Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Harrison Twp., MI Posts: 1,644	I'm sorry about your losses... it does sound perplexing, and while reading your post, in the back of my mind I kept thinking some metal (such as copper) is being introduced or has been introduced, but as you noted at the end you had the LFS test for copper. What types of pumps do you have? is it possible a magnetic drive pump might be corroding (I don't know what you would test for, other than taking the pumps apart and observing) Possible other culprits may be stray electrical current in the tank, or something toxic arriving on the latest piece of live rock you introduced... Hopefully someone else can help you figure this out, because in a 3 month span, it can't be a coincidence that every invert died. good luck __________________ -Blair Disclaimer: No trees were harmed in the creation of this post, though a significant number of electrons may have been inconvenienced. Current Tank Info: 120 SPS reef in progress, 120 mixed reef, currently being completely rebuilt)

07/29/2008, 03:01 PM	#8
jpaprota Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: ALLENTOWN, PA Posts: 3	diatome: interesting you should ask about that. i DO have a lot of what i presumed to be brown algae... only thing is the tangs won't touch it and it is encrusting everything. it actually peels off. not what i would describe as "hairy", though. figured it was always there, but kept undercontroll with the clean-up crew. how high did you push the pH? i'll put a ground in and check the pumps (tunze) for leaching metal, but they're only a few mos old. just changed the h20 over the weekend. __________________ JP Current Tank Info: 75g REEF

07/29/2008, 02:15 PM	#5
Diatome Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gainesville, Florida Posts: 215	What kind of algae are you seeing? If you see stringy algae, brownish in color, you could have dinoflagelletes. I would do a search here on dino. I had it and my astreas all dropped off the sides. My zoas were closed up and the fish were content and I was stumped at first. Did awater change, which is a no no for dino as it feeds them somehow and they just exlplode. I ended up with brown water and what looked like hair algae everywhere. I stopped water changes and stopped running everything except large amounts of carbon. Once I dropped my light cycle back and upped my PH, the dino died off. There many kidns in teh world but what appears in tanks is affected by PH. The stuff in the gulf of mexico, that causes red tide, isn't. Only thing I cna think of that would affect those types of inverts, other than copper.

07/29/2008, 02:21 PM	#6
The Saltman Moved On Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northwest Ohio Posts: 1,642	Just a thought. Do you have a grounding probe? Could be some sort of stray voltage from a pump or some sort? The only other thought that comes to mind is the 1 piece of rock you added around the time of the crash. Was it fully cured? If enough die-off was on the rock it could have created an ammonia spike which started a chain reaction of deaths.

07/29/2008, 02:23 PM	#7
The Saltman Moved On Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northwest Ohio Posts: 1,642	I also would increase water changes to weekly 25% for some sort of toxin that may have gotten in your tank. The solution to pollution is dilution.