Weird skewed pH readings

BumbleBeeJBG · 08/30/2008, 07:09 AM

Hey everyone! I've searched and searched and read and can't seem to get a handle on my issue. Just a note, all of my tests were done with an Instant Ocean test kit, I brought a sample of the water to the LFS a few times just to make sure my readings were correct and they verified my findings. I'll let the readings tell the story (you'll notice very quick I am a complete newb at this)

24G JBJ Nano Cube is born on 8/10/8, 35lbs LR, 2" Sandbed
8/10/8, pH - 8.1, Alk - 5mEq/L (Kent Superbuffer dKh added)
8/14/8, pH - Less than 7.8 (test limit), Alk - 5 mEq/L (more buffer)
8/22/8, PH - 7.8, Alk - 5.5 mEq/L (double dose of buffer) - stock added, 6 turbos, 2 emerald green crabs, 1 camel shrimp, 1 clown fish, button polyps
8/24/8, pH - 7.8 (buffer added)
8/25/8, pH - 7.8 (double dose of buffer applied)
8/26/8 am, pH - 7.8
8/26/8 pm, 4.4 gallon water change w/ water from LFS per their advice to get this problem under control, LFS also gave me different buffer that didn't mess with Alkalinity apparently. They didn't have any in stock so he gave me a little of what they use in the store - readings after water change - pH 8.1, Alk 7.5 (new buffer added)
8/27/8, pH 7.9, Alk - 7 (new buffer added)
8/28/8, pH 7.9, Alk - 7.5 (new buffer added)
8/29/8, pH 7.9, Alk - 7.5 (new buffer added)

Thanks all for taking a look! I can recognize a lot of mistakes I've made by listening to the LFS. I definitely added stock to early it looks like too. Anyways, what should I do? Thanks!

indydog1 · 08/30/2008, 07:43 AM

first of all

To Reef Central

and don't worry. we can help you get right.

yes you did stock way too early. atleast you reckognize it now.

when are you taking your readings? lights on or off? how long? and are they all at the same time?

we are all here to help.

BumbleBeeJBG · 08/30/2008, 08:08 AM

Thanks for the welcome! I think I've been getting a lot of bad info from the LFS so I'm trying to get more information from the web and such. There was just too much info out there that I sorta was attracted to the idea of having a guy I could go to.

I've been taking my readings between 7-10PM usually after the lights had been on for probably around 8 hours. The only time it deviates from that is when I specifically said "a.m."

Thanks so much for the attention!

rbnice1 · 08/30/2008, 08:16 AM

Your PH cab change a lot depending on lighting. My PH goes from 8.04 during the day with no lights for 8 hours then at night after the lights have been on a while it will go all the way up to 8.24.

I am not a expert I am sure Randy will chime in here but PH is a derivative of Calc, Alk, and MG. You can not raise PH with out raising all of these in different amounts.

I will find the artical randy wronte on PH and post you a link.

Also I am not sure why you would want to raise your PH with out raising your ALK its pretty low I keep mine at 9.5-10dkh.

rbnice1 · 08/30/2008, 08:22 AM

found it. This is a must read for anyone running a saltwater tank.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

BumbleBeeJBG · 08/30/2008, 08:24 AM

My Alk readings are not dkh, they are mEq/L. Puts a different spin on things doesn't it?

Measured it now for you guys, 10:20 am, lights off for the entire night until now. 7.9.

rbnice1 · 08/30/2008, 08:48 AM

wow thats 21DKH

I would do some water changes and get that down some.

I would read that actical I pointed you to. whats your Calc right now?

Yoiu might also try running a air line outside and make sure your not to much CO2.

BumbleBeeJBG · 08/30/2008, 09:46 AM

Can I do water changes at this stage of the game or is the tank too young? And how much would I do if I were to do some changes?

BumbleBeeJBG · 08/30/2008, 12:30 PM

Bump?

greenbean36191 · 08/30/2008, 12:33 PM

A tank is never too young to do water changes. You can do as much as is practical. Most people like to do 10-20% but more is fine as long as you match the salinity and temp of the water.

BumbleBeeJBG · 08/30/2008, 01:30 PM

So the consensus here is to do a water change to try and get the alk down? Then what? How much water?

rbnice1 · 08/30/2008, 02:49 PM

I would do 20-25%. In my 29 gallon it had a DKH of 17 and a 25% dropped it down to 10.

And remember there is no liquid or powder to raise pH. You can raise the alk which helps raise pH.

And as everyone here always says dont ever dose on something your not actively testing.

BumbleBeeJBG · 08/30/2008, 10:22 PM

Ok, I did a 6 gal water change and my readings are-

pH 8
Alk - 6mEq/L
Calcium - 300 mg/L

Now what? That alk is still sky high.

Hop · 08/30/2008, 10:46 PM

I would quit adding the buffer... Just let things ride. There are so many things going on with adding buffer and when you do the tests to accurately judge pH.

rbnice1 · 08/30/2008, 11:06 PM

the ALK is still very high but its better. I would wait 24 hours then do another water change. And repeat till the Alk is back to normal. Once you get the Alk to 10ish DKH or 3.6mEq/L then you can start to address any pH or other issues.

And as Hop said I would not use any buffer unless your ALK is low and needs to be raised.

BumbleBeeJBG · 08/30/2008, 11:24 PM

It's not too soon to do another water change? Will the Alk go down on its own? What about the Calcium levels, should I be worried about my polyps with that low calc?

rbnice1 · 08/30/2008, 11:33 PM

most salt that you mix up will have Calc in it. But not enough for most tanks that have SPS or clams. You can test Calc but I wouldnt bother till you get your ALK back in a semi normal range.

As far as water changes go I would do small water changes daily till the alk is back in decent shape then worry about pH and Calc.

Hop · 08/30/2008, 11:34 PM

Your tank has only been set up since the 10th. Just worry about getting the tank through the cycle and get some balance at this point. Playing with the levels right now is just making it harder for the things in the tank. I would quit adding buffer, maybe do a few waterchanges, but ultimately let things work themselves out. I'm still trying to figure out where the pH issue is? I ran my 450 and never could get the pH over 7.9.

pH levels fluctuate, it's just what they do. At night they should drop and the lowest pH should be right before the lights come on and the highest should be right before they go off. Taking consistent reading at the same time is very important.

it's good to watch the parameters, but adjusting them is not a great idea at this point. your polyps are at greater risk at this point IMO due to the unstable home they are in. Just sit back and let things be. Do weekly waterchanges and enjoy the tank for now

08/30/2008, 07:09 AM	#1
BumbleBeeJBG Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 52	Weird skewed pH readings Hey everyone! I've searched and searched and read and can't seem to get a handle on my issue. Just a note, all of my tests were done with an Instant Ocean test kit, I brought a sample of the water to the LFS a few times just to make sure my readings were correct and they verified my findings. I'll let the readings tell the story (you'll notice very quick I am a complete newb at this) 24G JBJ Nano Cube is born on 8/10/8, 35lbs LR, 2" Sandbed 8/10/8, pH - 8.1, Alk - 5mEq/L (Kent Superbuffer dKh added) 8/14/8, pH - Less than 7.8 (test limit), Alk - 5 mEq/L (more buffer) 8/22/8, PH - 7.8, Alk - 5.5 mEq/L (double dose of buffer) - stock added, 6 turbos, 2 emerald green crabs, 1 camel shrimp, 1 clown fish, button polyps 8/24/8, pH - 7.8 (buffer added) 8/25/8, pH - 7.8 (double dose of buffer applied) 8/26/8 am, pH - 7.8 8/26/8 pm, 4.4 gallon water change w/ water from LFS per their advice to get this problem under control, LFS also gave me different buffer that didn't mess with Alkalinity apparently. They didn't have any in stock so he gave me a little of what they use in the store - readings after water change - pH 8.1, Alk 7.5 (new buffer added) 8/27/8, pH 7.9, Alk - 7 (new buffer added) 8/28/8, pH 7.9, Alk - 7.5 (new buffer added) 8/29/8, pH 7.9, Alk - 7.5 (new buffer added) Thanks all for taking a look! I can recognize a lot of mistakes I've made by listening to the LFS. I definitely added stock to early it looks like too. Anyways, what should I do? Thanks!

08/30/2008, 07:43 AM	#2
indydog1 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: round lake, il Posts: 1,590	first of all *To Reef Central* and don't worry. we can help you get right. yes you did stock way too early. atleast you reckognize it now. when are you taking your readings? lights on or off? how long? and are they all at the same time? we are all here to help. __________________ Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself Current Tank Info: 210 gal

08/30/2008, 08:24 AM	#6
BumbleBeeJBG Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 52	My Alk readings are not dkh, they are mEq/L. Puts a different spin on things doesn't it? Measured it now for you guys, 10:20 am, lights off for the entire night until now. 7.9. Last edited by BumbleBeeJBG; 08/30/2008 at 08:40 AM.

08/30/2008, 12:33 PM	#10
greenbean36191 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 10,598	A tank is never too young to do water changes. You can do as much as is practical. Most people like to do 10-20% but more is fine as long as you match the salinity and temp of the water. __________________ Some say the sun rises in the East. Some say it rises in the West. The truth must be somewhere in the middle. Current Tank Info: tore them down to move and haven't had the time or money to set them back up

08/30/2008, 10:46 PM	#14
Hop Carpe Noctem!!! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Western Colorado Posts: 8,548	I would quit adding the buffer... Just let things ride. There are so many things going on with adding buffer and when you do the tests to accurately judge pH. __________________ Hop Current Tank Info: 300-gallon in-wall system (mixed reef)

08/30/2008, 08:08 AM	#3
BumbleBeeJBG Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 52	Thanks for the welcome! I think I've been getting a lot of bad info from the LFS so I'm trying to get more information from the web and such. There was just too much info out there that I sorta was attracted to the idea of having a guy I could go to. I've been taking my readings between 7-10PM usually after the lights had been on for probably around 8 hours. The only time it deviates from that is when I specifically said "a.m." Thanks so much for the attention!

08/30/2008, 08:16 AM	#4
rbnice1 Moved On Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cedar Hill Posts: 3,905	Your PH cab change a lot depending on lighting. My PH goes from 8.04 during the day with no lights for 8 hours then at night after the lights have been on a while it will go all the way up to 8.24. I am not a expert I am sure Randy will chime in here but PH is a derivative of Calc, Alk, and MG. You can not raise PH with out raising all of these in different amounts. I will find the artical randy wronte on PH and post you a link. Also I am not sure why you would want to raise your PH with out raising your ALK its pretty low I keep mine at 9.5-10dkh.

08/30/2008, 08:22 AM	#5
rbnice1 Moved On Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cedar Hill Posts: 3,905	found it. This is a must read for anyone running a saltwater tank. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

08/30/2008, 08:48 AM	#7
rbnice1 Moved On Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cedar Hill Posts: 3,905	wow thats 21DKH I would do some water changes and get that down some. I would read that actical I pointed you to. whats your Calc right now? Yoiu might also try running a air line outside and make sure your not to much CO2.

08/30/2008, 09:46 AM	#8
BumbleBeeJBG Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 52	Can I do water changes at this stage of the game or is the tank too young? And how much would I do if I were to do some changes?

08/30/2008, 12:30 PM	#9
BumbleBeeJBG Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 52	Bump?

08/30/2008, 01:30 PM	#11
BumbleBeeJBG Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 52	So the consensus here is to do a water change to try and get the alk down? Then what? How much water?

08/30/2008, 02:49 PM	#12
rbnice1 Moved On Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cedar Hill Posts: 3,905	I would do 20-25%. In my 29 gallon it had a DKH of 17 and a 25% dropped it down to 10. And remember there is no liquid or powder to raise pH. You can raise the alk which helps raise pH. And as everyone here always says dont ever dose on something your not actively testing.

08/30/2008, 10:22 PM	#13
BumbleBeeJBG Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 52	Ok, I did a 6 gal water change and my readings are- pH 8 Alk - 6mEq/L Calcium - 300 mg/L Now what? That alk is still sky high.

08/30/2008, 11:06 PM	#15
rbnice1 Moved On Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cedar Hill Posts: 3,905	the ALK is still very high but its better. I would wait 24 hours then do another water change. And repeat till the Alk is back to normal. Once you get the Alk to 10ish DKH or 3.6mEq/L then you can start to address any pH or other issues. And as Hop said I would not use any buffer unless your ALK is low and needs to be raised.

08/30/2008, 11:24 PM	#16
BumbleBeeJBG Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 52	It's not too soon to do another water change? Will the Alk go down on its own? What about the Calcium levels, should I be worried about my polyps with that low calc?

08/30/2008, 11:33 PM	#17
rbnice1 Moved On Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cedar Hill Posts: 3,905	most salt that you mix up will have Calc in it. But not enough for most tanks that have SPS or clams. You can test Calc but I wouldnt bother till you get your ALK back in a semi normal range. As far as water changes go I would do small water changes daily till the alk is back in decent shape then worry about pH and Calc.

08/30/2008, 11:34 PM	#18
Hop Carpe Noctem!!! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Western Colorado Posts: 8,548	Your tank has only been set up since the 10th. Just worry about getting the tank through the cycle and get some balance at this point. Playing with the levels right now is just making it harder for the things in the tank. I would quit adding buffer, maybe do a few waterchanges, but ultimately let things work themselves out. I'm still trying to figure out where the pH issue is? I ran my 450 and never could get the pH over 7.9. pH levels fluctuate, it's just what they do. At night they should drop and the lowest pH should be right before the lights come on and the highest should be right before they go off. Taking consistent reading at the same time is very important. it's good to watch the parameters, but adjusting them is not a great idea at this point. your polyps are at greater risk at this point IMO due to the unstable home they are in. Just sit back and let things be. Do weekly waterchanges and enjoy the tank for now __________________ Hop Current Tank Info: 300-gallon in-wall system (mixed reef)