Total system design

[meissmart]

Ok, I've spent way too long trying to create a good design for my reef aquarium. I'd really appreciate any feedback or suggestions anyone has to offer on the design before I begin the build.

Specifically:
- any weaknesses?
- anything to remove to save costs?

Hopefully we'll get a good thread going to give some ideas to others too.

[Bonneville08]

Hello meissmart,
It's an extraordinary drawing, and it shows that you have put a lot of time into the design. I don't know if you're going to get a lot of hits though. The drawing is very complicated, and does not contain a lot of actual data for review. I will take my best shot. I would keep the QT completely separate from the DT. Be careful that your components are compatible with your controller, some things like chillers have their own controller in them already. The refugium with macroalgae is an excellent idea. I would hold off on the frag tank, but make provision to add it later. If you answer some questions, you should start to see more hits:
DT, sump, and refugium capacity and dimensions? Total watts and spectrum of MH lighting on DT? What kind of livestock, soft, LPS, SPS, clams? Type of substrate and depth? Chiller? Skimmer make and model?, return pump make and model?, powerhead and wavemaker make and model?
Best of luck on the aquarium.

[meissmart]

Thanks Bonneville,

I was thinking of setting a 1% daily system volume drip into the QT tank that would overlfow into a drain to act as a continuous waterchange for both tanks without feeding QT water back into the main system.

Speaking of components being compatible with the controller, I can't seem to find any info (or sources for that matter) on solenoid valves. I have them shown as plugging into an outlet contolled by my controller. Is that right?

As well, if anyone has any tips for locating equipment and livestock in Western Canada that would be great, I'm getting the impression I will be paying a lot of customs feed with this hobby.

________

I'm sure I will end up downsizing some of these things once the sticker shock sets in, but for now the design is this:

Display
96"x36"x24" acrylic, 5.5" sandbed, 230G, ~1400 G/hr to sump, ~2300 G/hr with powerheads.

Refugium
Dimensions unknown, 30G + dump tank at end w/ 175 G/hr taken off the return pumps (I added the dump tank because I thought that it could prevent fish from waiting by the discharge from the refugium for the life comming from there... maybe that's not useful?).

Frag Tank
Thanks for the suggesion on adding the frag tank later, that will help save some upfront costs. The plan was to have it the same size as the refugium.

Quarentine
25G with an internal filter and powerhead

Protein skimmer
DIY - Is that a bad idea for someone with no experience? Is there anything obviously wrong with the skimmer layout shown?

Fluidized bed reactor (I've heard people have problems with changes in flow spitting out sand so I've used a v shaped design and added some sponge filters afterward to catch what I can)

Lighting
Ends: 2 x 150W (2x1.25A) XM 20K bulbs in Lumenarc III reflectors on ARO PRO Series ballasts
Center: 1 x 150W 10K MH in a Lumenarc III reflector on ARO PRO Series Ballast
Center flanks (front / right / left): 3 x 140W VHO actinic fluorescent on electronic ballast

Temp Control
No chiller because I live in Canada and it will be set up in the basement, a fan is fine. Three heaters in the sump.

Other items include:
Kalkwasser Reactor (I have a CO2 tank feeding straight into the refugium which will open if the kalkwasser reactor raises the pH too much)
Freshwater tank (dark blue)
Saltwater tank (light blue)
Algae Bottles (to dump daily into refugium section shown in green)
Space for canister filters

A basic description of the drawing to make it a little more readible: colorful lines are electrical connections, thin colorful lines show controller connections, the little red object with a thin red line is a "water on ground" detector, thick brown lines are the edges of the cabinetry, gray pipes are the normal flow lines, red lines are the overflow lines

As for makes and models, I'm open to suggestions. For the returns I was thinking of using 2 Reeflow Snapper 2400s.

I plan to stock mostly LPS with some SPS. I was also hoping to add some anemonies with clown fish but I don't know how to stop them from damaging other corals. The optional tie in piping I added to the sump is to put in a clam tank in the future.

Hopefully that answers all your questions and gives enough background info for anyone else to add some useful tips.

[jenjen]

Originally posted by meissmart

As well, if anyone has any tips for locating equipment and livestock in Western Canada that would be great, I'm getting the impression I will be paying a lot of customs feed with this hobby.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/s...s/mainpage.php

http://oceanaquatics.com/store/

Both these sites are in Western Canada (BC) and offer reliable, friendly service & healthy livestock. I live close enough to both to shop locally, but they do both offer shipping & online ordering as well.

[rogergolf66]

looks great!!!

only think I see is the flow in the DT you have a 10X turn over rate. for SPS that will not do. you need a min. of 40X turn over in SPS tank. I have 70X turn over in my SPS tank.

Other then that wow great job thinking this out. very nice ideas.

Roger

[meissmart]

Jenjen, thanks for the links, that will definately help.

Rogergolf, wow 40x turnover, I thought I read somewhere that exceeding 25x turnover was high enough to prevent corals from feeding properly? Maybe that's just for soft corals. Since I don't want to have that full turnover flowing through my sump would you agree with my setup having 2300 G/hr (10x) down to the sump along with powerheads flowing 6900 G/hr (30x)?

Thanks for the great replies, keep them comming.

[Bonneville08]

Hello again Meissmart,
Thanks for the clarifications.
Your total lighting calculates out to just less than 4 watts per gallon, I would consider getting in the neighborhood of 6 to 8 for SPS corals.
I would lose the fluidized bed filter, they make Nitrate. In between live rock, a good skimmer, and a refugium with macroalgae you should be golden for filtration.
A DYI skimmer is not a bad way to go, there are a lot of innovative people out there. Just follow their directions closely, I am not in a position to recommend one, but somebody will.
I'm not going to disagree with anyone, but I keep several specimens of montipora, acropora, and pocillopora in my aquairium with a 500 gph return pump in a 50 gallon tank with good results. I do use supplemental flow in the aquarium (a Wave2K which is rated at 4000 gph surge or 80 times an hour), this is where I think you should concentrate on flow (in the DT vs. through the filter).
I think a continous water change is going to cost a lot of money unless you live on the ocean and can get lots of free NSW.
I don't think your animals are going to hang out at your refugium return, I would keep that as simple as possible.
Your outputs from your controller can switch outlets on and off, that is correct. That controller is going to cost you though.
If you are going to dose CO2 for your kalkwasser (generally considered a good idea), I would suggest a CO2 reactor to help get the CO2 in solution.
I prefer a calcium reactor myself, the kalkwasser can lead to problems if not used correctly. A LOT of people do use kalkwasser very successfully.

[rogergolf66]

Originally posted by meissmart
Jenjen, thanks for the links, that will definately help.

Rogergolf, wow 40x turnover, I thought I read somewhere that exceeding 25x turnover was high enough to prevent corals from feeding properly? Maybe that's just for soft corals. Since I don't want to have that full turnover flowing through my sump would you agree with my setup having 2300 G/hr (10x) down to the sump along with powerheads flowing 6900 G/hr (30x)?

Thanks for the great replies, keep them comming.

you only need about 5X turn over to sump the 40X turn over should be powerheads only. I have two powerheads in my 125. each powerhead pushes over 4,000 gph each. that is a total of 8,000 total in a 125 display.

[rogergolf66]

good point I didn't see that the first time the fluidized bed would be good for a fish only system nothing with corals. as stated it causes nitrates.

Roger

[meissmart]

Grrr... I just spent quite a while typing out my reply and then it asked me to sign back in... and it didn't post and pressing back wont work! Sigh.

- I'll keep my DT to sump turnover at 6x and bump up my powerheads to 60x. Bonneville could you comment on the Wave2K system? It looks good (though a little pricier than powerheads). At the beginning of my design I was trying to make it work with a series of dump tanks above the tank, until I realized that it would require I increase my DT to sump flow (and the size of the returns) and that it would screw up my ability to control the water level (since it would always shift depending on how much water is in the dump tanks).

- To be cheap I was hoping to suppliment my lighting with natural light out of a large south facing window (over which I would put a UV filter). I have seen it work with some people and not with others. I'll just leave room above the tank for the additional lighting if it turns out I need it and the blinds can always be shut on the window.

- I'll remove the fluidized bed reactor. I'll also scrap the dump tank off the fuge into the DT. Finally I will seriously consider what I could do instead of putting in the controller. A series of timers could do most of what I need. How would I do level control without a controller? A drip? (keep in mind that because I am having a small amount of saltwater dripping out of the tank constantly for water changes and evaporation rates change, how much of each tank (saltwater or freshwater) I will need to add will change. So I can't just add from one tank based on level.

- I'll add a CO2 reactor (good catch)

[rogergolf66]

The controller is the best peice of equipment on my tank. I willl never run another tank with out one.

Roger

[Bonneville08]

As far as the wave2k goes, for 230 gallons your going to need probably three of them for SPS corals. At $250 each, its going to cost WAY more than power heads.
I have one center unit in my 50 gallon tank.
What I really like about it is the wave action (which you can see on www.wave2k.com ), and the fact that the motor is not in the water adding heat.
There have been a lot of really nice power heads for high flow and low pressure being produced lately.
I used to use a Tunze Stream with Algae free magnetic holder, and it was really nice (not cheap either for 230 gallons of water).
The only bad thing I have heard about Koralia is that the little red piece of plastic on the mount can break. Heard this from LFS staff, and maybe they were too rough with them. That did not stop them from using a crap load of them though.
And there are upgrade kits for the old dependable maxi-jet.
As far as continuous water change and ATO at the same time, I have no idea how you're going to pull that off. If it was mine I would give up on the contiuous water change.
As far as the controller goes, there are some pretty fancy ones out there. You could start a whole new string on those, or ask Rogergolf66. I've read some of his posts and he gives sound advice.

[meissmart]

Actually, I do have a controller question for Rogergolf66. I got a little lost on the threads regarding pH/alkalinity/calcium. How do you actually go about controlling your Kalk and/or calcium reactor automatically? And will the plans below work like I think they will?

My plan is to run a daytime CO2 reactor with a steady flow (TBD) and have my Kalk reactor controlled by the controller based on pH. As calcium draw increases over time, I can just adjust my preset CO2 rate which would in turn pump more from my Kalk reactor (to counter out the lower pH).

As for controlling if I will add water from the freshwater tank or from the saltwater tank (to allow a continuous water change), I was planning to have this controlled by a conductivity meter and a float, if both conductivity and level fall I add saltwater, if level falls but conductivity is high I add freshwater. Both the freshwater and saltwater tanks will be sized so that a total dump wouldn’t hurt the system and any sump overflow is directed to my drain.

[rogergolf66]

Well it sounds like that would work. what controller are you going to run, and are you going to run the co2 through a calcium reactor or just dump the co2 into the tank?

I would get a reactor for sure or that is a waist of co2 JMO.

I am a bit lost in what you are trying to say about the continous water change. how does the tank know if the water lost was from evap or you pulling it out with the continous water change? either way the water level will drop.

Roger

[meissmart]

Hi Roger,

Unless someone can suggest a good reason not to, I think I’ll just cheap out and put the CO2 through a CO2 reactor instead of a calcium reactor (since I plan to use the kalkwasser reactor already anyways).

As for the continuous water change, I am assuming a conductivity probe measures salinity. If that’s wrong then the following makes no sense…

My thinking was that if the salinity of the water is high, the probe will show high conductivity and my freshwater tank will be used when the level of the sump drops. If the salinity of the water is low, the probe will show low conductivity and my saltwater tank will be used when the level of the sump drops. That’ll work won’t it? I suppose I'll have small salinity fluxuations but nothing major.

[rogergolf66]

Ok well they my only question would be can the conductivity probe control salinity or just measure it? so far you didn't tell me what controller you were going to use but I don't know of a controller that can control salinity. how are you going to tell what pump to turn on fresh or salt?

Also

what is the error reading on this? I could see if the water level got low in the sump it added the fresh water till the reading was say 1.026. well if the reading is slow because will you can't put the probe in the sump where I assume you will be adding the water. by the time that water mixes with your system the salinity maybe 1.024 at that time. now it will turn on the salt water. this would repeat it self till you had a flood.

Just currious can you post of link of what ever you are going to use to control the salinity?


Thanks Roger

[ilv4xn]

I am setting up my first tank this month. JMO this seems like way too much to go wrong. even the LFS said keep it simple. A good skimmer a sump, good lights (MH or lots of T5), powerheads and a calcium reactor.

what if your auto h2o change meter crusts with salt creep and gets false readings?

[meissmart]

3 dosing pumps (Kalk, Freshwater, Saltwater)
1 controller (Neptune Aquacontroller 3 Pro)

If: (sump level < min) & (salinity < 1.025)
Then: turn on salt water dosing pump
Until: sump level = max

If: (sump level < min) & (salinity >= 1.025)
Then: turn on fresh water dosing pump
Until: sump level = max

Safety: sump overflow line to drain, dosing pump timeout

ilv4xn, do you have any specific suggestions to help simplify the design? Most of the complexity came in later in the design as I tried to add elements to eliminate system risks. For instance, if the continuous water change crust up, it will simply stop my water change and save me money. The quarantine tank will be fine. If the drip opens full open, my automatic water top off will ensure I keep my system flow and the risk is simply that it will waste water.

[rogergolf66]

I didn't know the AC III had salinity on it that is great. just one more reason for me to upgrade!!!

I have the AC II

[meissmart]

Not to go all over the place with my thread, but I was considering adding a DSB to my Refugium and to my Frag Tank (when I add it later on). If I do this, I could make my DT sand bed shallow so that I can stock some of the larger sand shifters who would otherwise stir up my DSB too much. Since my Fuge and Frag tanks are both fed off my return pumps (which contain theoretically clean water), this should prevent deteritus buildup as well.

Do you see any problems with this?

Will the larger shand shifters run out of food in a shallow sand bed? Do I need to suppliment their feeding somehow? (I'm talking large shellfish, starfish, cucumbers, etc)

Thanks

[rogergolf66]

sounds good to me. I think the food supply will be fine as long as you don't over stock the sand criters.