Best way to cure HLLE

LOTUS50GOD · 10/16/2008, 09:15 AM

I have 2 adult blue tangs + other tangs...
but after 7 years the blues have a little HLLE.

I feed them a very diverse diet of Nori, Prime Reef, Formula 1, Mysis, Scallops, whitefish, & various reef pellets 2-4 times a day (I work from home, so I can play with the tank whenever)

They are fat beyond all belief (enough to filet LOL)...

Only the blues have the HLLE, the sohal, tominini, & mimic show
no signs.

Any suggestions.

psteeleb · 10/16/2008, 09:31 AM

My regal (blue) had it and it kept getting worse. I added a grounding probe, it stopped getting worse and over time has actually healed the scars.

May be total coincidence.

LOTUS50GOD · 10/16/2008, 09:34 AM

I have always had a grounding probe in the tank...

psteeleb · 10/16/2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LOTUS50GOD
I have always had a grounding probe in the tank...

sorry, I'm not much help then. Mine did go away and heal. I never did encounter any stray voltage, but figured it must have been some micro currents caused by the magnetic forces that powerheads and pumps will generate but are undetectable by our touch and most amp meters.

It may be a stretch, but I'd check for a stray voltage leak.

LOTUS50GOD · 10/16/2008, 09:49 AM

I put a multimeter in there... no stray voltage...

Here is a pic of the tang.. what do you all think

psteeleb · 10/16/2008, 10:00 AM

I'm not seeing it, HLL that is, or at least like how mine got it. Mine lost major blue in the face, actually had pot marks that were about 1/8", some larger.

Hopefully others will chime in that will know more about it.

Don-Coraleone · 10/16/2008, 10:01 AM

do you soak the food in any vitamins?

psteeleb · 10/16/2008, 10:08 AM

I found this:
Maybe pull the probe and check for stray voltage again.

But it looks like it can be brought on by other items mentioned below

HTH

This disease stems from the lateral line that fish have, thus appropriately named Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE). It is also referred to as Lateral Line Erosion (LLE), Lateral Line Disease (LLD) and Hole-In-The-Head Disease. It appears as open pitted wounds around a fishes head and along the lateral line, as if something is slowly eroding away the flesh. HLLE disease in the short run is not fatal, but over the long run if the disease continues to progress the fish stops eating and becomes lethargic. The open wounds make the fish susceptible to other infections which in turn leads to the further deterioration of its health, and these secondary infections are what may eventually contribute to its demise.
What is the Lateral Line?
The lateral line is a tube running just below the surface of the skin along the sides of the body, usually marked externally by a series of pores that open out through the scales. View these fish anatomy diagrams from the Badman's Tropical Fish website to get an idea of where the lateral line is located. Even though these diagrams are of freshwater fishes, the lateral line relates in the same way to all fish species. It is a very important sensory organ. It can detect minute electrical currents in the aquarium water and also functions as a kind of echo location system that helps fish to identify their surroundings. There is usually only a single lateral line on each side of the body, but many variants of the typical lateral line may occur. For example, on the sides of the Belonidae (Needle Fish), Hemiramphidae (Half-Beak Fish), Exocoetidae (Flying Fish), and a few other fish families, the lateral line runs very low on the sides. On some species the lateral line may also be incomplete, in which case it stops short of the base of the caudal fin. It may also be interrupted, meaning that it ends and then recommences after a gap, perhaps several scale rows lower down on the body, as in some of the Labridae (Wrasse) species. Strangely enough, in a fairly large number of families the lateral line is absent altogether.

Possible Causes
There are many "theories" as to why this disease occurs, but there seems to be no single definitive answer that can be pinpointed or solely connected to it. Many of the contributing theories include stray voltage in the aquarium, poor water quality and environmental conditions, high nitrate levels, lack of vitamins and poor nutrition, stress, parasitic infestation (a protozoan, Octomita necatrix), using carbon, and that some fish may just be genetically pre-disposed to this disease condition, such as Tangs & Surgeonfishes (refer to sixth discussion down).

Treatment
Most of the above possible causes can be easily addressed. Stray voltage induces stress, so adding a grounding probe to the aquarium is a wise thing to do in any case. For poor water quality and environmental issues, follow good regular aquarium maintenance routines. Reduce and eliminate any other stress inducing factors, correctly diagnosis for parasites and always feed fishes foods that any particular species require in their diets.

Using over the counter medications do not seem to do much in treating this disease. However, those that contain antibiotics can help to treat for secondary infections. From all the research we have done, no matter what the actual "cause" may be, it appears that improving water quality and providing supplemental vitamins and adequate nutrition are key elements in "treating" HLLE. Many aquarists have had great success in reversing the effects of this disease by providing the fish with supplemental vitamins, such as A, D, E or B's, as well as iodine. This can be accomplished by feeding them foods soaked in Selcon, Zoe or other liquid vitamins, providing algae eating species with vitamin-rich live plant sources, such as macroalgae, i.e. Caulerpa (refer to the third discussion down) and adequate live rock growth, and even by [feeding a diet of broccoli supplemented with peas and other prepared foods.

For more information about this disease, refer to our HLLE Disease Resources.

LOTUS50GOD · 10/16/2008, 12:18 PM

Ya.. i read something like that on Wikipedia...

I do not soak my food in vitamins.. What vitamins do you recommend.

Attreui · 10/16/2008, 01:06 PM

Alot of things can cause HLLE in Tangs. The most common are thought to be stray voltage and nutritional issues. Some even claim Nitrates. I have a Kole Tang that has it and it was discovered it was a bad heater in the tank. Once I took it out, it stopped progressing. Looking at the pic you posted it seems hard to understand where all that hair algae is coming from with 0 Nitrates and that low Phosphate. I wonder if you do have a bit of a nutrient problem and maybe the algae is eating it up before it gets to your test kit. Tangs are so susceptible to HLLE it's very hard to say. Make sure if you test for voltage you take the probe out first. I am not a fan of probes anyway since they dont fix the voltage problem. If you do find voltage, find the equipment putting it in the water and replace it.

as for vitamins I recommend Selcon.

10/16/2008, 09:15 AM	#1
LOTUS50GOD Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,210	Best way to cure HLLE I have 2 adult blue tangs + other tangs... but after 7 years the blues have a little HLLE. I feed them a very diverse diet of Nori, Prime Reef, Formula 1, Mysis, Scallops, whitefish, & various reef pellets 2-4 times a day (I work from home, so I can play with the tank whenever) They are fat beyond all belief (enough to filet LOL)... Only the blues have the HLLE, the sohal, tominini, & mimic show no signs. Any suggestions. __________________ Vertex Alpha 300 Skimmer, AI SOL Blue, Neptune Apex Controlled 360 gallon Reef Current Tank Info: born 6/26/2008- 340 reef + 100 fuge, 300lbs of figi LR

10/16/2008, 09:31 AM	#2
psteeleb Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: DFW Texas Posts: 5,249	My regal (blue) had it and it kept getting worse. I added a grounding probe, it stopped getting worse and over time has actually healed the scars. May be total coincidence. __________________ A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner Current Tank Info: 110g Mixed Reef, LED's & T5's

10/16/2008, 09:34 AM	#3
LOTUS50GOD Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,210	I have always had a grounding probe in the tank... __________________ Vertex Alpha 300 Skimmer, AI SOL Blue, Neptune Apex Controlled 360 gallon Reef Current Tank Info: born 6/26/2008- 340 reef + 100 fuge, 300lbs of figi LR

10/16/2008, 09:49 AM	#5
LOTUS50GOD Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,210	I put a multimeter in there... no stray voltage... Here is a pic of the tang.. what do you all think __________________ Vertex Alpha 300 Skimmer, AI SOL Blue, Neptune Apex Controlled 360 gallon Reef Current Tank Info: born 6/26/2008- 340 reef + 100 fuge, 300lbs of figi LR

10/16/2008, 10:00 AM	#6
psteeleb Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: DFW Texas Posts: 5,249	I'm not seeing it, HLL that is, or at least like how mine got it. Mine lost major blue in the face, actually had pot marks that were about 1/8", some larger. Hopefully others will chime in that will know more about it. __________________ A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner Current Tank Info: 110g Mixed Reef, LED's & T5's

10/16/2008, 10:01 AM	#7
Don-Coraleone Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: east coast Posts: 1,478	do you soak the food in any vitamins?

10/16/2008, 10:08 AM	#8
psteeleb Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: DFW Texas Posts: 5,249	I found this: Maybe pull the probe and check for stray voltage again. But it looks like it can be brought on by other items mentioned below HTH This disease stems from the lateral line that fish have, thus appropriately named Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE). It is also referred to as Lateral Line Erosion (LLE), Lateral Line Disease (LLD) and Hole-In-The-Head Disease. It appears as open pitted wounds around a fishes head and along the lateral line, as if something is slowly eroding away the flesh. HLLE disease in the short run is not fatal, but over the long run if the disease continues to progress the fish stops eating and becomes lethargic. The open wounds make the fish susceptible to other infections which in turn leads to the further deterioration of its health, and these secondary infections are what may eventually contribute to its demise. What is the Lateral Line? The lateral line is a tube running just below the surface of the skin along the sides of the body, usually marked externally by a series of pores that open out through the scales. View these fish anatomy diagrams from the Badman's Tropical Fish website to get an idea of where the lateral line is located. Even though these diagrams are of freshwater fishes, the lateral line relates in the same way to all fish species. It is a very important sensory organ. It can detect minute electrical currents in the aquarium water and also functions as a kind of echo location system that helps fish to identify their surroundings. There is usually only a single lateral line on each side of the body, but many variants of the typical lateral line may occur. For example, on the sides of the Belonidae (Needle Fish), Hemiramphidae (Half-Beak Fish), Exocoetidae (Flying Fish), and a few other fish families, the lateral line runs very low on the sides. On some species the lateral line may also be incomplete, in which case it stops short of the base of the caudal fin. It may also be interrupted, meaning that it ends and then recommences after a gap, perhaps several scale rows lower down on the body, as in some of the Labridae (Wrasse) species. Strangely enough, in a fairly large number of families the lateral line is absent altogether. Possible Causes There are many "theories" as to why this disease occurs, but there seems to be no single definitive answer that can be pinpointed or solely connected to it. Many of the contributing theories include stray voltage in the aquarium, poor water quality and environmental conditions, high nitrate levels, lack of vitamins and poor nutrition, stress, parasitic infestation (a protozoan, Octomita necatrix), using carbon, and that some fish may just be genetically pre-disposed to this disease condition, such as Tangs & Surgeonfishes (refer to sixth discussion down). Treatment Most of the above possible causes can be easily addressed. Stray voltage induces stress, so adding a grounding probe to the aquarium is a wise thing to do in any case. For poor water quality and environmental issues, follow good regular aquarium maintenance routines. Reduce and eliminate any other stress inducing factors, correctly diagnosis for parasites and always feed fishes foods that any particular species require in their diets. Using over the counter medications do not seem to do much in treating this disease. However, those that contain antibiotics can help to treat for secondary infections. From all the research we have done, no matter what the actual "cause" may be, it appears that improving water quality and providing supplemental vitamins and adequate nutrition are key elements in "treating" HLLE. Many aquarists have had great success in reversing the effects of this disease by providing the fish with supplemental vitamins, such as A, D, E or B's, as well as iodine. This can be accomplished by feeding them foods soaked in Selcon, Zoe or other liquid vitamins, providing algae eating species with vitamin-rich live plant sources, such as macroalgae, i.e. Caulerpa (refer to the third discussion down) and adequate live rock growth, and even by [feeding a diet of broccoli supplemented with peas and other prepared foods. For more information about this disease, refer to our HLLE Disease Resources. __________________ A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner Current Tank Info: 110g Mixed Reef, LED's & T5's

10/16/2008, 12:18 PM	#9
LOTUS50GOD Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,210	Ya.. i read something like that on Wikipedia... I do not soak my food in vitamins.. What vitamins do you recommend. __________________ Vertex Alpha 300 Skimmer, AI SOL Blue, Neptune Apex Controlled 360 gallon Reef Current Tank Info: born 6/26/2008- 340 reef + 100 fuge, 300lbs of figi LR

10/16/2008, 01:06 PM	#10
Attreui Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 321	Alot of things can cause HLLE in Tangs. The most common are thought to be stray voltage and nutritional issues. Some even claim Nitrates. I have a Kole Tang that has it and it was discovered it was a bad heater in the tank. Once I took it out, it stopped progressing. Looking at the pic you posted it seems hard to understand where all that hair algae is coming from with 0 Nitrates and that low Phosphate. I wonder if you do have a bit of a nutrient problem and maybe the algae is eating it up before it gets to your test kit. Tangs are so susceptible to HLLE it's very hard to say. Make sure if you test for voltage you take the probe out first. I am not a fan of probes anyway since they dont fix the voltage problem. If you do find voltage, find the equipment putting it in the water and replace it. as for vitamins I recommend Selcon.