QT Setup? Is this okay

[JCR's Reef]

I set up a 40g QT tank with undergravel filtration, HOB bio-wheel, and some argonite substrate to keep the Ph up. I also put 2- 4" PVC for hiding. I plan on doing Hypo treatments so I dont think I have to worry about ick living in the substate, do I? I have read it should be a plain tank so the host will have a shorter lifespan and hopefully be picked up by filtration. But if the tank is at 1.009 it should die anyways, correct? I plan to keep the salinity at 1.009 for 8 weeks, so the fish will be in Qt for a total of 10 weeks after everything is said and done.
Also, Even though the main display tank has no fish in it, cant the cyst live for extended amounts of time in the sand almost in a dormant stage? I think I read somewhere they can stay in a dormant state for up to 6 months without a host. Is this really true and is there rock hard evidence about this? I would hate to do this for 6 months. Thanks in advance

[WaterKeeper]

Is this a QT or hospital tank? If it is a QT then keep the salinity the same as your display. Low salinity may be hard on a fish that has been stressed during shipment and it may be lethal to place it into a abnormal environment.

[Aquarist007]

I agree--- a little over kill here in the treatment
Hyposalinity can be quite effective if the salt level remains at 1.009 for 4 weeks and then raised back to normal with another two weeks for observation of the fish.

[JCR's Reef]

Its both. Buy new fish and put them into it and treat them as they would have ich. I know every fish is a carrier of it and only has an outbreak if they are stressed. I figured if I could do it this way I would keep my DT free of most parasites

[JCR's Reef]

Oh and if its something that would require medication I would use a different bare bottom tank.

[JCR's Reef]

Anybody else see any problems? Or can answer the questions above?

[acrouse]

first of all-It's great to see you want to take an important step in having a healthy tank by QT'ing your fish.

My suggestion is similiar to Waterkeepers. Keeping fish in that low of salinity for that extended period of time has great potential to do more harm then good. It puts un-needed stress on the fish.
I take the approach that you should not lower salinity or treat with medications until you see a need for either/or. Why try to fix something that is not broke? Unless you buy a fish that already shows signs of disease, then obviously you need to treat right away.
If you keep your fish in QT for at least six weeks and watch it closely you can tell signs of problems.Examples(by watching if it eats, their waste, abnormal breathing, outward skin appearance, etc.) Then if you notice signs, you can specifically treat the symptoms.
I would also suggest your QT tank be bare bottom-much easier to clean properly-less nitrate build up from fish waste settling-left over food settling to the bottom cant be scooped up with a net if you have sand-if ich should break out, cant get cyst/eggs out of sand properly.

Hope this helps
jolene

[perenes]

thats a huge qt tank

[JCR's Reef]

Thanks everyone. I really figured if I put an undergravel filter in I would be able to break down most of the waste. With proper water changes I shouldnt have to worry about it (I think).
As far as the cyst/eggs go, if the tank is in Hypo they should die off right away correct?
I have some fish in there now, one of them being a sailfin tang, and I figured with tangs it would be a safer treatment. The tang is scratching, and looking a little blotchy. My salinity is 1.018 right now and Im going to lower to around 1.014 throughout the day tomorrow.

[alextheromanian]

ive never QT my fish unless one got beat up or something. now that i have a sump i just move one in there if theres a problem but there hasnt been in over a year.

its a good thing to be cautious and prevent diseases entering a tank but im not sure how well you can prevent this...it comes in the rock aswell as it does in the sand and its dormid and itll attack fish who are weakest.


treating them with hypo or loads of meds and what not will stress them out and make them weaker... if you really want to id keep the QT at the same salinity(normal) and just keep an eye on it...if it eats...if it acts normal...and if it does after (insert prefered amount of weeks) move it to the display with as little stress as possible.


but then again in no expert.
these guys above me have been in the hobby wayyy longer.

[alextheromanian]

Originally posted by alextheromanian
ive never QT my fish unless one got beat up or something. now that i have a sump i just move one in there if theres a problem but there hasnt been in over a year.

its a good thing to be cautious and prevent diseases entering a tank but im not sure how well you can prevent this...it comes in the rock aswell as it does in the sand and its dormid and itll attack fish who are weakest.


treating them with hypo or loads of meds and what not will stress them out and make them weaker... if you really want to id keep the QT at the same salinity(normal) and just keep an eye on it...if it eats...if it acts normal...and if it does after (insert prefered amount of weeks) move it to the display with as little stress as possible.


but then again in no expert.
these guys above me have been in the hobby wayyy longer.

ps...someone told me(and take this with a grain of salt) that yes diseases do stay dormid but after a while they die out not being able to infect healthy fish. they only live by reproducing and not being able to do so will kill them eventually.

so i guess happy non stress eating fish should take care of it

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by alextheromanian
ps...someone told me(and take this with a grain of salt) that yes diseases do stay dormid but after a while they die out not being able to infect healthy fish. they only live by reproducing and not being able to do so will kill them eventually.

so i guess happy non stress eating fish should take care of it

If referring to ich here---the preferred time for the display tank to remain fishless is 6 weeks.
However marine biologists have stated cases of ich lasting up to 11 weeks without a fish host

[WaterKeeper]

That is temperature related Scott. In cool waters, under 50°F the cyst take a long time to mature and release the free swimming parasites, close to two months. At normal tank temps of around 80° that period is shortened to 4-5 weeks. Raise it to around 85 and the cycle is over in under a month. That is why I suggest keeping a hospital tank at around 82°F or a little warmer as it helps speed the process.

[JCR's Reef]

Thanks for clearing that up guys. So I shouldnt be worried about the cyst burring itself to the gravel then since the tanks in hypo? They shouldnt be able to live regardless so thats why I dont see a problem with it. It has an undergravel filter with about an inch of gravel. Ill have to take it after the fish in it are done if its going to create a problem.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
That is temperature related Scott. In cool waters, under 50°F the cyst take a long time to mature and release the free swimming parasites, close to two months. At normal tank temps of around 80° that period is shortened to 4-5 weeks. Raise it to around 85 and the cycle is over in under a month. That is why I suggest keeping a hospital tank at around 82°F or a little warmer as it helps speed the process.

thanks for clearing that up WK

[WaterKeeper]

Most of the treatment method do little, less, nothing, to combat the cyst stage. It is only when the ciliate goes out hunting for a host fish that the medication or hypo is effective. That stage is very short, less than 36 hours, so most of the wait involved is to get the cyst to erupt and release the free swimmer. Once it finds a host it enters the fish's skin and neither copper or hypo do much to combat it. The formalin dip may be the only method to control the protozoan when actually on the fish. My main problem with dip methods is they don't provide any protection when the fish is returned to the hospital tank. Cysts are constantly producing pathogenic ciliates and the fish may be infected shortly after its return to isolation.

[JCR's Reef]

Waterkeeper- How much Formalin per gallon for a dip? Is this a 1 hr dip?

[WaterKeeper]

Add three tablespoons full of fomalin per gallon and only dip for five minutes, less if the fish shows signs of distress. Repeat every third day for about two months

[rgrobe]

Hey JCR,

I'm no expert on these issues although I have been successful with being ich free for many years. I did read this post. You seem set on using hyposalinity to combat your ich problem. I recognize several folks that have posted here that know what they are talking about. Despite their advice that hypo may not be best for the fish you seem to be headed that direction anyway. Hypo will stress fish and fish are more susceptible to ich (and other illnesses) when they are stressed.

Please read this post again and you will find the answers that you need to be successful. I just think it is important to do the right thing for the right reasons.

[WaterKeeper]

People it isn't high blood pressure and overwork that causes ich. The main cause is we take fish out of the ocean and confine them in a small aquarium. Here the parasite, that is normally too dilute to create a problem, can grow to huge numbers in the confines of the tank. It seeks out a host, drops off and reproduces in larger and larger numbers. When a fish is infected by the massive swarm it is overcome.

QT your fish and avoid the wee beasty from entering the tank in the first place. If a fish shows no signs of ich during the QT it will not spontaneously develop ich in the display.

[JCR's Reef]

Originally posted by rgrobe
Hey JCR,

I'm no expert on these issues although I have been successful with being ich free for many years. I did read this post. You seem set on using hyposalinity to combat your ich problem. I recognize several folks that have posted here that know what they are talking about. Despite their advice that hypo may not be best for the fish you seem to be headed that direction anyway. Hypo will stress fish and fish are more susceptible to ich (and other illnesses) when they are stressed.

Please read this post again and you will find the answers that you need to be successful. I just think it is important to do the right thing for the right reasons.

I know what you are saying, but everytime I have treated a tang with copper I have lost the tang while keeping the copper at the proper levels for treatment. I am kinda panicking here because b/c I had bought about 200# of Liverock off of another reefer and stuck it in my tank. Now Im not saying it was transported on the rock, but its probably b/c I stressed the fish out. My tang and trigger are the only ones clearly infected. I tore my tank back down to catch all the fish to QT them. Im pretty much speechless for being so quickly dumbfounded. Everything I am doing now is just from what I have read over the years and researched. Not saying it is the best, but its far from the worst. All I can do is just wait it out b/c I cant treat them in the Hyposalinity and it will take awhile to raise it back to normal levels. I greatly appreciate the input, no matter how its addressed.

[JCR's Reef]

Everything is going real good. Everything cleared up the first week. My sailfin tang was in real bad shape the night before I started dropping salinity. Overnight both of his sides were starting to eat away from the cysts. His skin right behind his gills were literally a clearish red. I dipped him in Paraguard for an hr, dosed prime in the tank for the slime coat and started to immediatly drop the Sg pretty quick. If I hadnt done that he probably wouldnt of made it another day. I dropped it in a matter of 2 days. All the fish ate well and showed no stress other than iching. As of now his skin is cleared up and healed . Still in Hypo at 1.009. All the fish are fat and healthy. I was scared I would loose my hawk, and cleaner fish in this setup as they only ate live pods in my tank before. There are now accepting everything I throw in there.
The way I have the tank setup with the undergravel filter with subtrate in it is working out great. I dont have to dose anything to keep the ph up and the tank is well airiated. I have powerheads that will keep things from settling on the bottom and stay suspended in the water column for the hang on back bio-wheel filter to catch the floating particles and polish the water. I also run carbon in the filter aswell to keep the water clear. After I raise the salinity back up to 1.025 I will keep them in there for another 4 weeks for observation.

[WaterKeeper]

Josh,

Don't hurry to return to nomal salinity too fast. Only raise it about 0.002 units a day as too quick of an increase may harm the fish.

[JCR's Reef]

Thanks Tom. Thats what I plan on doing. If they start acting a little funy while Im raising it I'll just skip a day altogether.