QT woes - cycling!

[Crazed]

I've posted a couple other threads here and wasn't getting replies in my general build thread, and I need some help with my 20 gallon quarantine tank, so I figured I'd post another thread.

I've had two tank-raised Ocellaris clownfish in quarantine for about a week and a half now. It's a bare-bones setup, with a powerhead with a connecting sponge, some PVC and a heater. For the first 3-4 days or so, it was fine. Then, the ammonia spiked. Now, I had left the sponge soak in the sump of the DT for a day, and I had been adding Nutrafin Cycle to help prevent a full cycle in the tank every time I did a daily water change.

I went away for a couple days and instructed my mother to add Ammo-Lock to detoxify the ammonia. I just got back yesterday, and while the fish appear to be fine, the ammonia has spiked up to .5. She was only feeding the fish one flake per day in an attempt to reduce the waste output of the fish, and she had been performing 2 gallon water changes daily with fresh SW and adding the Cycle.

I was told (and had read) that soaking the sponge in the DT was a pretty sure-fire method for maintain a low bioload for an amount of time so that the QT wouldn't go through a mini-cycle. Why didn't this work, especially with using an additive like Cycle, and how can I prevent it in the future? The clownfish may have survived the short period before I added the Ammo-Lock, but I don't expect more sensitive fish to do so, yet I am dedicated to providing 4 week quarantine for every specimen I get...

Water changes haven't brought down the ammonia, and the Cycle hasn't seemed to help much, so I switched to Stress-Zyme today. I'm going to further cut back the food. I'll keep adding the Ammo-Lock; this will make it safe for the fish, right? When the ammonia finally goes down, is there some kind of chemical similar to Ammo-Lock I'll need to add to detoxify nitrite?

I'm pretty confident that the fish will survive this hectic process, but I really want to know how to make it so it will not happen again. I'm planning on breaking down the QT between uses, and since I'll probably have to medicate some fish at some point in the future, I don't want to be adding a piece of live rock to it or anything. What are your most successful ways to quarantine new fish?

This has really stressed me out. The last thing I wanted to have happen to my poor little fish was to have them go through a fricking cycle in the tank that's supposed to be a peaceful place for them to adapt. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks.

[Macimage]

I would recommend large water changes with water from your display tank. You need to get those levels down.

I leave my qt up and running all the time with live rock and live sand. I also have a hospital tank for meds, however, that one is only set up if necessary.

Good luck!
Joyce

[Ricardo529]

I think that many of the ammonia detoxifying chemicals that are sold actually just bind the ammonia and prevent it from getting into the fish. If Ammo lock works this way, it will likely not reduce the overall ammonia in the tank and your testing kits will still show high levels (with the idea being that the level doesn't matter because it cannot affect the fish).

I also vaguely remember reading somewhere that Amquel or others like it can interfere with ammonia tests as well (give falsely high results). Either might explain why you are seeing what you are

How do the fish look? If they are acting fine (eating well and not breathing heavily), you might be okay. However, I agree with the above and I would still continue with the water changes. Better to be safe than sorry.

Rick

[Crazed]

Yes, Ammo-Lock just detoxifies the ammonia, it doesn't remove it. It said that, however, the biological filter and regular water changes should ultimately remove the ammonia and give me a lower reading eventually. I don't think it biases the reading higher, though; it just means that a high ammonia level doesn't affect the fish.

The fish do look fine, though. They've been behaving, from my understanding, better than they did even when they first came into the tank.

If you think it's best to change SW from the DT into the QT, how much do you think I should do at a shot? I could conceivably do a maximum of 50% change in one day (I have a max of 10 gallons of premixed saltwater available), but would that mess with the fish or the bacteria in the QT?

[Crazed]

Okay, I'm going to change 50% of the water in two 25% installments over the next 12 hours. If anyone thinks this is a good/bad idea, please let me know.

[Macimage]

I've done up to 90% water changes with my aged dt water.

You should be fine.

Joyce

[wooden_reefer]

I think for fish the sign of ammonia toxicity is rapid gill plate movement, but this can be false positive.

Always cycle the QT using a simple filter medium and setup before getting fish.

Very often a nitrification filter can be used in QT. Cu does not damage nitrification bacteria significantly. Some antibiotics will only depress it somewhat; some will destroy it however.

It is best that the nitrification medium can be removed from the QT if needed, but I rarely use any drug that will destroy nitrification bacteria anymore. Seldom or never get this far anymore.

Chloromycetin is a generally effective antibiotics that will wipeout nitrification bacteria, but I have not used it for years. It is seldom available except from a vet. Many other antibiotics will only depress nitrification somewhat.

[Crazed]

Thanks for the handy guide to antibiotics there, wooden_reefer. I don't think I'll be medicating these fish though, but if I do, I'll make sure to refer to it.

Anyway, since I last posted I've changed 50% of the water from 100% ammonia free water from my DT. The ammonia is very slightly lower... it still looks about .50 on the chart, but it's looks to be less a color than before I took it.

I'm still adding Ammo-Lock every two days and adding my Nutrafin Cycle after each water change. Is it possible the bacteria are not colonizing my sponge? I can show pictures if you want to see if anything looks amiss with my setup or if I'm using the wrong kind of sponge or something like that

I'm trying to think of other options. How would it be if I bought another sponge, let it soak in the sump of the DT for a few days, then swap the one in the quarantine tank with the one from the sump? The DT never really had ammonia or nitrite spikes, but it's been up with LR for almost 2 months now - and it has hitchhiking inverts and algae in it - so it has definitely cycled. Should I do this? If worse comes to worst, I'll could probably put a small piece of live rock into the QT, but I don't really want to do that, since as I said I'll probably be breaking down the QT each time.

If that really doesn't work, I could cut my quarantine period short and put them right into the DT. They haven't shown any signs of disease - to my untrained eye, anyway - and they were tankraised to begin with. But, I don't really want to go less than 4 weeks for quarantine... I also don't want to kill my fish from ammonia. They do look really healthy though. I don't see any noticable exaggerated gill movement and they're always very hungry when I feed them (note I have cut significantly back on the food I give them, about a half a fingernail-sized flake per day, but I don't think I ever was overfeeding them).

I'm going to continue with the water changes until I've changed through 100% of the water, but I don't think this is effective.

Thanks in advance.

[Macimage]

Originally posted by Crazed
I don't see any noticable exaggerated gill movement and they're always very hungry when I feed them (note I have cut significantly back on the food I give them, about a half a fingernail-sized flake per day, but I don't think I ever was overfeeding them).

I'm going to continue with the water changes until I've changed through 100% of the water, but I don't think this is effective.

Thanks in advance.

That is not much food for them. I realize that you don't want to elevate the ammonia, but you need to feed them well.

You will see a reduction in ammonia with continued large water changes. If you don't, you may want to double check your test kit.

Good Luck!
Joyce

[albertan22]

Take this advice with a grain of salt as my SW tank is not up and running yet and all my experience is with FW tanks. I would say that you didn't leave your sponge in your sump/DT long enough for it to become colonized with the needed bacteria. I believe that you said you left the sponge in there for a day. A cycle is basically the process of your tank becoming colonized by de-nitrifying bacteria, think about how long that takes with a new tank. I would leave the sponge in the DT for a few weeks before using it as a biological filter in a QT.

In the meantime, if you have a piece of LR that you could put in from your sump or DT (assuming the DT is already cycled) it would probably help in the short term.

[Crazed]

I've been doing my water changes for the last several days from the DT. If nothing else, this is helping my fish get acclimated to the water.

However, I think things are getting worse. Depending on how long I allow the color to develop in my ammonia tests, it's .50 (at 5 minutes, which is what the test says to let it wait for) or 2.00 (after letting it sit for longer). I don't know what to do anymore. I don't think they're doing well, even with the Ammo-Lock. The smaller, weaker fish was laying horizontally on his pipe tonight when I came home. It was dark out; he might have been sleeping, but they usually move a bit when they sleep, not just flop down. He's swimming alright now, but what the heck can I do? I've been doing 10%+ water changes every day for the last week, taken from the display tank (which has 0 ammonia), and the ammonia has either stayed the same or gone up. I'm only 17 days into the quarantine process, which is a little over half way.

I want to continue the quarantine process, but I don't want to kill my fish in the process. I just added sand into my display tank, so if I absolutely must put the fish in there, I can. Opinions would be great. I'm definitely letting that darn sponge in the sump for weeks next time before doing this....

[Macimage]

Originally posted by Macimage
I've done up to 90% water changes with my aged dt water.

Originally posted by Crazed
I've been doing 10%+ water changes every day for the last week, and the ammonia has either stayed the same or gone up.

10% is not going to reduce the ammonia very much. On top of that, the fish are adding waste every day, so you are not keeping up with the ammonia they are producing.

As I noted before, large water changes will help. You can also add live rock for filtration from your dt.

[Crazed]

The maximum I could do at one time is 10 gallons now. I only have two 5 gallon buckets for mixing water. Theoretically, that would only cut the ammonia in half (20 gallon tank). I could probably coax 3 gallons out of my DT without the pump running dry without replacing water, but that's about it.

But I suppose 13 gallons is better than nothing, right?

[Macimage]

Originally posted by Crazed
I only have two 5 gallon buckets for mixing water.

Pick up a food safe trash can at Home Depot or Lowes for approximately $10.

[Crazed]

I've been considering that possibility, but it's going to be interesting trying to store something that large in my room. Maybe I can set it up in my bathroom and use the other buckets for distribution...

At any rate, I'll do a 10 gallon change tomorrow and see what I can do with the trashcan.

I have a hypothetical question, though, sort of a humane dillemma, and I'd like to get an opinion. Let's say I do all of this and the ammonia remains up. If you were in my situation, in the middle of a quarantine with tank-raised clownfish, would you keep the fish in the quarantine tank with the ammonia (supposedly detoxed with Ammo-Lock), or would you put them in the display tank to save the fish, although you might risk infection of the DT? I'm kind of on the fence. I don't want to allow ich or other diseases into the display tank, but I think if I see the fish really starting to stress out in the quarantine tank, I can't just stand back and watch them die. I already feel awful that they're having to go through a cycle when I thought I'd taken all the appropriate precautions.

[Macimage]

Originally posted by Crazed
Let's say I do all of this and the ammonia remains up.

If you get a 35-55 gallon trash can and start doing 90% water changes using your DT water, there is no way that the ammonia in the qt will not go down.

However, be sure that you premix the new saltwater for 24-48 hours before you use it in your dt.

You can also move some live rock to the qt if you are not using copper meds.

Good luck!
Joyce

[Crazed]

Alright. I'll try it. Thanks for your advice. I'll keep you updated.

[Macimage]

Good luck and keep us posted.

Also, match the salinity and temperature for your water changes.

Joyce

[otrlynn]

Even if you don't have a new bucket or trash can, make up the 10 gallons of new saltwater ASAP, preferably NOW. Put a heater and a powerhead in there if you can. Remove as 15 gallons from the QT, discard that. Remove 15 gallons from the DT and put it in the QT--but check that the temp and salinity match pretty closely. You've just done a 75% water change on the QT. Put the 10 gallons of new salt water back in the DT. You can run it 5 gallons short until you have new salt water made up and and aged a bit. If it drops the tank too low for your pump, just leave it off for a couple of hours--presumably you have a powerhead that will keep the water moving. IMO, if you can mix new saltwater in a bucket with a power head, you can probably use it in the DT within a couple of hours. Pouring that relatively newly made salt water in your DT, which only has a clean-up crew in it if I understand correctly, is less risky than letting your clownfish sit in water with ammonia.

I have been down this same road before and it is very frustrating. Your sponge was not in your DT long enough to host much beneficial bacteria, most likely. Personally, I'd grab a piece of live rock from the DT and put it in the QT and worry about it later. You can always remove and re-cure it if necessary. Do not however, take the sponge out of your QT and swap it with the one in the DT. If your current fish have ich, you'd just risk transferring it back to the DT--just what you are trying to avoid. However, you can take that sponge from the DT, stick it in the QT, along with the one that is already in there, and just buy a new sponge for the DT tomorrow.

[Crazed]

Thanks for the advice! That's pretty much exactly what I'm planning on doing. I've got 10 gallons of SW mixing up right now and I'll probably do a massive water change tomorrow evening.

As for taking another sponge from the DT to the QT, that's preferably what I'd like to do. Unfortunately, I don't have another one being seeded in there right now (one that can be removed, anyway; all I have is my pump return sponge). How long do you think I should let a new sponge soak in the DT before moving it over? If it's longer than a week, I'm thinking I'll just keep up with the big water changes in the QT, since the fish will be out of the tank in less than two weeks at this point. Taking a piece of LR from the sump to the QT is a definite possibility (since I'm not treating copper or anything like that), but wouldn't putting it back into the DT at a later period also take the chance of introducing ich into the system, plus any of the other chemicals I've been using (Ammo-Lock, for instance)? Unless I boil the LR afterwards, I guess, but what did you have in mind for that path?

Once again, big thank you for the advice. I'd be going crazy without you guys. After this is all over, I'm going to let a new sponge sit in the sump at all times for quarantine or hospital use.

[otrlynn]

I don't mean to be an alarmist, but you have to act quickly when you have rising ammonia in the QT, especially if your fish are showing signs of distress. Ammonia is a fish-killer, much more so than, say, high nitrate levels. As far as the rock, if you put it in the QT, and the fish look fine at the end of the QT, you are making the judgement that the fish don't have ich or any other parasite, and are placing them in the DT's waters. Just move the rock back to the DT--any ammo-lock remaining on/in the rock won't hurt the DT. If you need to treat with any chemicals (for instance copper) you will need to remove the rock, and then either re-cure the rock in a separate container without fish, or boil it, in which case it will become dead rock (which will re-seed itself nicely once it is back in the DT. Don't delay on changing out that water. If you can do it on a lunch break, do it.

By the way, I don't have a sump, so I'm not sure what you mean by the return pump sponge. Is it removable? Can your pump be run without it? Any media that has been exposed to the beneficial bacteria in your cycled DT, will add nitrifcation bateria to the QT. If you can remove it and stuff it in the HOB filter that I assume you have on your QT, or even just let it float in the water, it would be helpful

[Macimage]

How are your fish today and the ammonia levels in the qt?

Joyce

[Crazed]

The fish both look great today. They both ate well and they've besn swimming around like normal. I'm getting ready to do the water change (I just got home, I was gone since 5 am =/). I don't know what was wrong with the one fish last night; maybe I just never noticed that he sleeps strangely compared to the other one. At any rate, I'll be doing the 15 gallon change very soon, and I just bought a 32 gallon Brute that I'll be using to mix up water for the future big changes.

Once again ,thanks for your help, and I'll let you know what hte ammonia looks like after the change. I have a question though, that I sort of alluded to earlier. My test kit says wait 5 minutes. At 5 minutes, the ammonia looks .50. However, if I wait, say, 10 minutes, it looks 1.00-2.00. Which do I go with? The one that's longer developed, or the one that ascribes to exactly what the test kit says?

Thanks!

[otrlynn]

I don't have any hard evidence, but I'd tend to go with following the instructions. Glad to hear that your fish look good.

[Macimage]

Originally posted by Crazed
I have a question though, that I sort of alluded to earlier. My test kit says wait 5 minutes. At 5 minutes, the ammonia looks .50. However, if I wait, say, 10 minutes, it looks 1.00-2.00. Which do I go with? The one that's longer developed, or the one that ascribes to exactly what the test kit says?

It's a 50/50 guess at best. I would either purchase a new kit or have your lfs test the water so that you can establish a baseline.

Glad to hear your fish look good today.

Joyce