New to saltwater/reef-keeping

[terri_ann]

Hi all! I'm a night owl so I imagine all of you are sleeping and some of you working. Some might call me an old lady especially trying saltwater/reef-keeping at my age. Anyway, I went from freshwater to cichlids and now I'm at my "dream"! I've always loved the ocean probably because of being 'land-locked' here in Iowa:lol!
I've had my saltwater tank running for 14 months and have not had the success that I have hoped for. I have had casualties unfortunately and have not been able to even get any coralline to grow. I have added live rock with pink coralline, test water parameters and add supplements such as calcium, purple-up, etc. and, have metal halides,etc. with a photoperiod of 10-12 hours.
I have read several books and just ordered all 3 volumes of The Reef Aquarium by J. Sprung. I hate having casualties because I value all aquatic life! Am I too old to be trying saltwater/reef-keeping? I'm a college graduate but things I read seem to be over my head. My memory isn't real sharp anymore I must admit. But I am determined and patient when it comes to my aquarium!! I need some open and honest feedback from you experienced aquarists, please! I need guidance.....Thanks!

[murfman]

Hi Terri, I see you have a 135 gallon, please post up your parameters and system specifications.

[PRDubois]

To Reef Central
Glad to see you This is a good place to start!

Never too old. Are you in contact with a local reef club?

[PRDubois]

Post your water prams and what issues you are having.
What Type of lights do you have?
What equipment do you have? Sump? Skimmer?

As far a coraline:
Keep your calcium at 400 to 450
Dont waist money on "purple up" Just Suppliment your Calc.
Keep your Temp between 78 to 80
Run lights on timers for 8 hours a day.

If you have any Corraline on your rocks now, you can rub it with a toothbrush to help it spread.

[thegrun]

Welcome to RC! I'm no spring chicken myself; I got back into the hobby about a year ago after a 15 year hiatus. I am certain you can master saltwater, just don't expect miracles overnight. One suggestion from the information you have posted is shorten your photoperiod to around 7 hours for your metal halides (main lights), studies have shown that photo durations longer than 7 hours actually start to slow down coral growth. I run my actinics for 12 hours a day, starting and stopping 2-1/2 hours before and after the MH to give a more gradual sun up, sun down effect. Post your tank's parameters; it will give us better information to help you.

[ramone58]

WELCOME, I am also a older person. Just read a lot, test a lot, and patience. Also I read you have added live rock from time to time. I made the same mistake, if the live rock you are adding is still curing, or has had a lot of die off you can be creating mini-cycles. Raising the ammonia level and then causing issues.

[EnglishRebel]

Terri
You're never too old (well I might be close ). I had wanted a saltwater aquarium all of my life but with my job I was traveling a lot so when I retired I dove right in. Check my build thread. Ask lots of questions here and you will find everyone very helpful -- but be careful with WaterKeeper -- he loves noobies and he'll lead you down the road to starvation.

[WaterKeeper]

Especially "OLD" Newbies like Alan; who forgot to give you the link for his Build Page.

The nice part about being up here in years is we don't rush into things like our younger counterparts. That is an important factor in having a thriving reef tank vs. one that is alway on the verge of failure. Good luck Terri and if you have questions feel free to ask.

[abulgin]

In addition to what others have posted/asked, I'd just add that magnesium is an important supplement, both for coral health and coralline growth. We'd really need to know more details of why you consider your tank a failure. If it's just casualties, that's one thing. If it's water quality problems or overgrowth of nuisance algae, that's another thing. Give us details of your "failures" (e.g., types of fishes you've tried to keep, etc.) and also send: your water test results for ammonia, nitrate, pH, alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium; typical tank temperature; how much live rock you have; type and depth of substrate; whether the top of your tank is covered or open; whether you quarantine your fish for 4-6 weeks before placing them in the display tank.

[terri_ann]

Thanks to all of you for responding! I was overjoyed from your responses I will try my best at responding...There is not a reef club in my area. I have been running my fluorescents for 12hrs daily and just 1 of the halides 3hrs in that 12 hr period. My tank temp is 82F on 1 end and 80F on the other end. I have 58lbs of "Look Alive" rock and 35lbs of Fiji live rock. I have about 160lbs of substrate...about 3" deep. The rock I purchased w/ the coralline does not show the coralline any longer...I see no coralline at all :-( Salinity @ 1.025, PH @ 8.4, 11dKH,no ammonia, no nitrite but high nitrate and phosphate. Silica @ .5 Calcium @ 400 Supplements I use/have are calcium, Seachem reefbuffer & builder, iodine, strontium & molybdenum, magnesium, iron, essential elements, Coral-Vite(haven't used)...stability & purple-up. I use RO water, no DI w/ Novaqua & Instant Ocean salt. I do a partial water change monthly but question if I am taking too much out...I have 2 large Brute garbage cans that I keep my RO in. I usually use more than 1 can for each tank cleaning. I usually add 2 caps (16oz bottle) of iodine, stro & moly, magnesium, iron, essential elments, stability & purple-up weekly. Six weeks ago I had surgery for colon cancer so my tank has been neglected for about 3 months...thus the high nitrate. Don't know why the high phosphate? Have a sump...I took pictures of my tank today but can't figure how to add it here? Have some problems with diatoms. Don't quaranteen new fish as just have 1 tank. Have canopy for top. No 'little critters' in tank. My fish guy says his "live rock" is rock w/ the pink coralline...no sponges, etc & his "live sand" is what I bought in the bags!? I have 4 turbo snails, 1 featherduster, 3 clowns, foxface "rabbitfish, regal blue tang, pj cardinal,rusty angel, valentini puffer, lawnmower blenny & orange spot prawn goby- my entertainment. Casualties have been royal grammas, shrimp, green chromis, mandarins, 2 wrasse, hawkfish and longnose butterfly :-( I'm sure you all can tell that I'm just a NEWBIE :-O! Keep the feedback coming!! Thanks!!!!

[abulgin]

I'm sad to say you are doing almost everything wrong.

Originally posted by terri_ann
I have been running my fluorescents for 12hrs daily and just 1 of the halides 3hrs in that 12 hr period.

You need to run the halides for at least 7 hours. My guess is you'll have some heat issues, so you'll either need to run fans across the top of your tank or invest in a chiller (or switch to a T5 setup).

Originally posted by terri_ann I have 58lbs of "Look Alive" rock and 35lbs of Fiji live rock.

Not nearly enough live rock. The look alive rock is useless---just an algae magnet. You need at least 100 lbs of real live rock. This is one of the reasons your nitrates are high.

Originally posted by terri_ann I have about 160lbs of substrate...about 3" deep.

Your substrate needs to be 1" or less or 4" or more. Anything in between is just a nutrient/nitrate generator.

Originally posted by terri_ann but high phosphate. Silica @ .5

Both need to be 0 when measured. I bet the total dissolved solids reading (TDS) of your RO water is very high. You should get a reading on that, either from your fish store or from any of the TDS meters you can buy. You should add a DI filter to your setup. Remember to change your filters often (2-3 years for the RO membrane and 6 months for everything else).

Originally posted by terri_ann Supplements I use/have are calcium, Seachem reefbuffer & builder, iodine, strontium & molybdenum, magnesium, iron, essential elements, Coral-Vite(haven't used)...stability & purple-up.

You're just polluting your water. The only supplements anyone really needs are calcium, a buffer, and magnesium. If you aren't keeping corals, these are less important.

Originally posted by terri_ann I do a partial water change monthly but question if I am taking too much out...I have 2 large Brute garbage cans that I keep my RO in. I usually use more than 1 can for each tank cleaning.

You would do much better (and so would your fish) with smaller weekly water changes--15 gallons per week.

Originally posted by terri_ann I usually add 2 caps (16oz bottle) of iodine, stro & moly, magnesium, iron, essential elments, stability & purple-up weekly.

If you can't test/aren't testing for it, don't add it. Most of these things are totally useless and unnecessary. All of these will be replaced by regular water changes. No one really knows much about how/whether iodine works, or in what concentrations. As I said, you really only need calcium, buffer and magnesium.

Originally posted by terri_ann Casualties have been royal grammas, shrimp, green chromis, mandarins, 2 wrasse, hawkfish and longnose butterfly

Hard to say how these died. I'm sure the mandarins died from starvation. You don't have nearly enough live rock to support such a fish. Did the others die from disease or for unknown reasons?

Do purchase a quarantine tank in which you can quarantine new purchases for 4-6 weeks before introducing them into your tank.

[WaterKeeper]

Come on, lighten up. You don't need to get down that hard on poor Terri.

Overall you have a nice set-up Terri. It just needs a little adjustment. You will save some big bucks by not buying all those additives. You salt mix will supply all the essentials so calcium and an alkalinity supplement is all you really need. Some people do need to supplement magnesium but, unless it tests below 1200 mg/l, it is not a requirement.

If you can, I would also increase that bed depth about an inch. Doing it with some true LS is best but if you can't use the dry packaged stuff and invest in a detrivore kit to help seed it. With a refugium you can add the detrovores into the fuge and they will migrate into the sandbed. It gives them a better chance to flourish without being eaten.

I'm not a fan of doing it but there seems to be a craze of buying mainly base rock and seeding it with some real LR. It works but it means a longer wait before you do much stocking. I think that is why you have had the lose of fish. You are trying to add too many too fast.

I really have no problem with using large water changes. Heck, with high nitrates and phosphates 25-30% weekly would help bring them down. The water that is removed during a water change does not in any way interfere with the biological activity in the tank. All the good organisms in a tank are holding onto the sand and rock for their dear lives and not swimming around in the water column.

I would suggest looking into adding a DI to the RO stage as it improves water quality significantly and is especially important for silica removal, an element that is not well captured by RO alone. Another item to consider would be a phosphate removal reactor. It is a valuable tool in controlling algae.

I'm glad to hear that you are over your surgery and hope your health continues to improve. Keep us informed of how things are going.

[abulgin]

Originally posted by WaterKeeper


Come on, lighten up. You don't need to get down that hard on poor Terri.

WC, I wasn't being hard on her. I was being honest with her, which is exactly what she asked for. She admitted that she's doing things wrong, and I agree with her--her story bears this out. I tried to offer constructive, helpful criticism so she could see/understand what she's doing wrong. If you disagree with any of my suggestions, please feel free to correct me.

[willwork4frags]

Terri,

To answer one of your quesitons that was not covered by really good info above.

To post pics. Upload your pictures to a website like photobucket. Copy the direct link under the picture. When you click post reply in a thread, you will see a small box that says img. Click that and post the direct link in that box.

With all the help here, we can get this nailed down and get you a smoother ride so you can enjoy that box of the ocean you got there.

Good luck.

[WaterKeeper]

Not trying to correct you I just thought is was somewhat of a harsh opening to your comments. Only disagreement is on water change size. Anything under 50% usually will only help, not hinder, a tank.

You can tell when I'm in shock when I start a thread off with

Yikes!!!!

You didn't get that response Terri so things aren't that bad.

[terri_ann]

I wasn't offended by any of the comments guys. I know you are all here to help me :-) I do have some questions from your posts. My Ro is a Kent Hi-S 60...what and where can I buy a DI? My local fish guy doesn't sell them...he has to order it so if I can get one online, I'll order it myself. I have only ordered from Foster&Smith online. Also, what brand and where can I get a TDS meter? Don't know anything about them. Water changes and using phos-guard/Seachem purigen in sump...will that tackle the phosphate to where I wouldn't need to buy a reactor? If not or is a 'must have', suggestions for the reactor? To get LS, I would need to order...suggestions? What would be better, LS or detrivore kit? Lastly, suggestions on what kind of live rock to buy, how much, approx cost/lbs and where? Due to medical expenses, money is extremely tight right now so need to really prioritize purchases. Suggestion on what size a quarantine tank? Boy, I'm glad to had found all of you...THANKS!!!!

[terri_ann]

Oh, 1 more question...do I need to add the Novaqua at water changes?

[abulgin]

You don't need to use any water conditioner if you are using RO (or RO/DI) water, assuming your TDS is low. There are all sorts of TDS meters available. www.thatfishplace.com sells an in-line one for like $35 that plugs right into the RO/DI filter. The Filter Guys on-line sell a DI canister. You can run the phosguard in the sump but it won't be as effective as if you were using a reactor. A decent one is the Two Little Fishies Phosban Reactor.

[terri_ann]

I figured out how to get some of the tank pictures on photobucket but don't know which link under the picture to copy? Just can't figure it out :-(

[terri_ann]

I have no idea what PSI I'm running into my RO. Do I need a pressure guage kit? Also, does the water temperature going into the RO effect the effectiveness of the RO/DI? When it comes to questions, I'm sure you will get tired of mine...being an educator, I have always asked tons of questions. Those who really know me, have always referred to me as "a lifelong learner".

[JTL]

Terri,
I believe temp does have some effect on RO but the water going into my system is very warm since the water line is in the attic and runs the length of the house, in FL. My water is perfect, but my city water is also RO, but then they add chlorine back to it.

[WaterKeeper]

Yes, the colder the water the lower the efficiency. On large systems a tempering tank is placed ahead of the RO to allow the incoming water to reach ambient. Pressure to the RO has a somewhat greater effect, with higher pressure producing greater output. If your your unit is rated at 75 gph at 60 psi but your actual water pressure is on 35 psi you figure the output by this formula-

Actual output= (rated output X actual pressure)/rated pressure; so in the case above we have

(75X 35)/60=43.75 gallons per hour

As you can see it is a sizable difference and the bad part is if the unit uses a flow of 300 gph at rated output it will still use 300 gph at the lower pressure with more water lost to waste.

Computing the temperature correction factor is rather involved so I won't go into that but most membranes are supplied with the flow rate determined at 77°F. The correction factor for water at 55°F, pretty common for well water in my area, is 1.61 for a TFC membrane. That means the a 75gph actually produces 75/1.61 or 46.6 gph at 60 psi.

If we go back and factor in the reduce pressure output we see 43.75/1.61=27.2 gph actual output for our 75 gph membrane at 35 psi @ 55°F. Actually because of another factor, increasing centipoise, the output should actually be about 30.3 gph but that is not to much encouragement if you were expecting 75 gph from that brand new unit.

Hope that helps and being a Newbie probably nobody warned you not to post a question like that when Waterkeeper is involved in your thread. He lives for water treatment questions.

[jasonmg]

Don't use hot water in the RO as it can damage the membrane (cold to luke warm is ok) The higher the pressure (ie 60-75psi) the better it will run and produce less waste aswell. I also would not store the RO water for any longer than is necessary. Fill your container the day before you want to do the water change, put a spare heater in the container to bring it up to tank temp first before doing the water change. Only produce enough RO at a time to keep up with your top of water - ie dont store too much. I use RO only (no DI) and my water is perfect. Not sure what the DI part does really, but no water treatment stores in my city recommended it. I would be interested in other opinions on why to use it and its benefits?

Also I was told (by a Marine chemist at the local marine college) that raising kH to 12-13 and Mg to 1500-1600 increases coraline growth and helps it out compete other algae growth in the tank. I did this 4 months ago when I was getting no coraline growth and lots of green hair algae and now it has gone absolutely gangbusters since. Most of my base rock is covered and all other rock is total encrusted. I have to scrap the glass weekly of coraline growth (and now no green hair algae)

[jasonmg]

I obviously do not know as much about RO as WaterKeeper has just proven whilst I wrote my post but hope I could help a little. I too am a newbie to marine aquariums but have been using RO for 10 years for FW.

[terri_ann]

Tom, you definitely answered my RO/temp/PSI inquiry. Thanks! I think I followed it and will be checking my temp and PSI. (Waste not, want not) I sure hope I can continue to understand your responses...statistical analysis was not a strong suit for me and I completely stayed away from chemistry!

Jason, good idea about not storing the RO water for too long...I don't know why I was doing that in the first place-dah! Also, thanks for the KH and Mg parameters; I need coralline, not diatoms :-) !!