BioBalls gone, Now what?

Kakabub · 10/21/2009, 02:22 PM

My tank is about 6 months old and I have finally removed all the bioballs over about a month period. What can I do with that space in the wet/dry sump? I was thinking of putting some live rock and leaving enough room if I ever need to put a media bag for carbon or w/e. I'm going to leave the filter tray/scrubber on the top for the incoming water to pour through. If I leave it empty it creates a lot of noise. Has anyone found a way to run PhosBan or some kind of phosphate removal media in a wet dry chamber successfully? Edit: I forgot, also are there any macro/beneficial plants that grow in wet/dry space like that? I do have a small CF light that cycles opposite my DT lights and already have Chaeto in the refuge portion.

My sump before removing bioballs

thegrun · 10/21/2009, 03:35 PM

I would fill the old bio ball chamber with live rock (rubble). I would raise the baffle before the blue sponge filter as high as possible to bring the water level up. That would keep the live rock submerged and make the second chamber (just before the sponge filter) deep enough to keep cheato in. You could put a sheet of 1" filter media just above the new live rock to quiet the water noise.
Option #2 would be to put two filter socks in the old bio-ball chamber, Raise the baffle just before the blue sponge filter and add live rock in that chamber. Raise the baffle just before the return pump and add cheato in that section.

lordofthereef · 10/21/2009, 03:59 PM

I assume you removed them because of their potential to be detritus traps? Replacing them with LR rubble would not solve that problem.

Frogmanx82 · 10/21/2009, 04:06 PM

Yeah, so why is live rock better than bioballs? If you had a decent size rock I guess you could have some nitrate conversion to nitrogen gas with anaerobic activity, but rock rubble wouldn't be any better than bioballs.

koranAngel · 10/21/2009, 05:41 PM

god question how can rock rublles be better than bioballs
im interested to know as well??

thegrun · 10/21/2009, 09:29 PM

Bio balls and LR both trap debris, but the tiny holes in porous live rock form oxygen depleted zones where anaerobic bacteria will colonize that actually break down nitrate, bio balls do not and so they actually end up increasing the nitrate levels in a tank.

Kakabub · 10/21/2009, 10:54 PM

how can i raise the baffle on the right side? (the blue filter side), I would really like to do that. Also I've considered getting a couple of mangrove seedlings, anyone know how fast they grow and if the benefit is worth it?

Kakabub · 10/21/2009, 10:55 PM

And yes, i took out the bioballs basically from peer pressure. everyone kept telling me I would have nitrate problems in the future, although my prams are great right now. What about some larger pieces of LR instead of rubble... I figured less surface area and more anaerobic.

Frogmanx82 · 10/21/2009, 11:18 PM

I don't buy that rock with its "micropores" will go anaerobic unless its a pretty big rock.

If you have big rocks in your display tank, what you put in that little section won't add much nitrate conversion.

Regarding bioballs creating nitrates, last I heard that was still an indispensable part of the nitrogen cycle. You can't just skip it. Ammonia - nitrite - nitrate.

You have several options to treat the nitrate. Set up anaerobic zones in a DSB or live rock. Algae scrubber. Carbon dosing (vodka vinegar sugar)

Leaving the bioballs in a least helps control an ammonia spike when you add a bioload to the tank. Bioballs would only be a an issue if they trapped detritus. Detritus has to go somewhere, I like to use floss to trap it and throw it out frequently. If the spot the bioballs are in is prone to collecting detritus, maybe you should just put in floss in there and change it out every few days.

Flipper62 · 10/21/2009, 11:19 PM

BioBalls were designed to take the place of live rubble rock. It has ( what they claim ) to be the same surface area as live rock. And will do the same thing

My personal opinion is, I dont like the BioBalls...........WHY ??

They may claim to do the same thing.......But I can guarantee you one thing.

THERE ARE NO BIOBALLS IN THE OCEAN.....( sorry for yelling )

I like to keep my tanks as natural as possable.

Michael · 10/21/2009, 11:37 PM

one of the lfs i visit has a massive cylinder full to the brim of bio-balls, his reef tanks are amazing, seriously, like totm quality, and every tank is spotless,the water quality is of the highest standard, he does however work tirelessly daily keeping all the tanks clean and occassionally cleaning out the filtration chambers, he also has massive uv filtration systems in place, i suppose working 10 hours a day in a store continuosly cleaning everything is the reason why, the bio-balls work for him, in my little reefing world with my other life (marriage and kids,lol) its harder to spend as much time as he does on his system, hence bio-balls wouldnt work for me, basically i think it depends on the amount of work your prepared to put into your system wether they are useful or not.

Frogmanx82 · 10/21/2009, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flipper62

BioBalls were designed to take the place of live rubble rock. It has ( what they claim ) to be the same surface area as live rock. And will do the same thing

My personal opinion is, I dont like the BioBalls...........WHY ??

They may claim to do the same thing.......But I can guarantee you one thing.

THERE ARE NO BIOBALLS IN THE OCEAN.....( sorry for yelling )

I like to keep my tanks as natural as possable.

There are no bioballs in the ocean? There are no skimmers either. Yelling it doesn't make it make any more sense.

Besides, I'll bet there's more than a couple bioballs in the ocean. In fact, there's plenty of stuff in the ocean you don't want near your tank.

Flipper62 · 10/21/2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frogmanx82

There are no bioballs in the ocean? There are no skimmers either. Yelling it doesn't make it make any more sense.

Besides, I'll bet there's more than a couple bioballs in the ocean. In fact, there's plenty of stuff in the ocean you don't want near your tank.

1 - I said.....sorry for yelling

2 - I have been scuba diving in many places on this earth....Haven't seen any BioBalls yet.

3 - YEP...there is more crap in the ocean that I want near my tank.....Thats why there is way more things Dying in the ocean then there is in any of my tanks.

Frogmanx82 · 10/22/2009, 07:10 AM

I'll toss some bioballs in on my next trip to the ocean. Let me know if you spot them.

Anyway, I think bioballs get a bum rap, they aren't that bad. I should have put a smiley up before, I didn't mean to flame. I just don't understand the "they're not natural argument" when we're talking about filtration equipment.

thegrun · 10/22/2009, 07:29 AM

[QUOTE=Frogmanx82;15896648]There are no bioballs in the ocean? There are no skimmers either.

Not true! The shoreline works as a skimmer, the surf agitates the water and the proteins bind to the air bubbles producing the skimmate you see washed up on shore. When you smell "the ocean", what you actually smell is the skimmate produced by the wave action. That is what we are trying to mimic with our skimmers.

thegrun · 10/22/2009, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakabub

how can i raise the baffle on the right side? (the blue filter side), I would really like to do that. Also I've considered getting a couple of mangrove seedlings, anyone know how fast they grow and if the benefit is worth it?

Back to the question at hand...Have you ever worked with acrylic? It is fairly easy to cut and glue. There are some threads about working with acrylic in the DIY section of RC, if you have fundamental wood working skills, working with acrylic is similar and you should be fine to try it yourself. You might try asking for help in your local RC forum, I've built a couple of sumps for fellow RC members. I would just glue a piece on top of the existing baffle.

Timoweb · 10/22/2009, 07:45 AM

Live sponges work well as water filters, I would add a few.

Frogmanx82 · 10/22/2009, 08:25 AM

[QUOTE=thegrun;15897370]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frogmanx82

There are no bioballs in the ocean? There are no skimmers either.

Not true! The shoreline works as a skimmer, the surf agitates the water and the proteins bind to the air bubbles producing the skimmate you see washed up on shore. When you smell "the ocean", what you actually smell is the skimmate produced by the wave action. That is what we are trying to mimic with our skimmers.

So where is the collection cup. It only works as a skimmer if the skimmate is removed. The ocean doesn't need a skimmer because its a balanced ecosystem. The amount of wave action on the shore isn't significant relative to the size of the ocean. Scaled up, you'd need a lot more foam deposited on the shore before you could call it a skimmer.

thegrun · 10/22/2009, 08:36 AM

The collection cup is the shoreline where it is deposited and eaten by a host of organisms that have carved out a niche in the ecosystem for just that purpose. I would not call it an insignificant contribution to the overall health of the ocean.

Frogmanx82 · 10/22/2009, 11:37 AM

Way off topic now grun, lets just agree to drop it. So after all this, what is the best replacement for bioballs?

I would say filter floss and change it every few days.

Live rock rubble won't add anything to your filtration. You don't need bacteria sites, you have plenty of them in your display tank. What helps is exporting detritus and anything else that would accumulate on the floss.

The only other helpful option would be some sort of chemical media like carbon or GFO if you don't have it running already.

Kakabub · 10/29/2009, 01:36 PM

Hehe, I love a good debate... All valid points IMO, I switched out the bio balls to 3 large chunks of live rock with floss/filter medium above. I haven't raised the baffle on the right side yet, life got kinda busy so it's gonna have to wait a bit. Honestly I liked having the Bioballs in, much quieter, but we'll see how things go with the LR. Is there any solid evidence that bioballs are worse than LR or nothing? I have plenty of LR in my DT and since the BB have come out have seen no change in prams whatsoever.
Amm-0
Nitrates-0
Nitrites-0
1.026 Salinity
8.2 PH
8 Kh
500ish Ca

10/21/2009, 02:22 PM	#1
Kakabub Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: SF/Sactown Posts: 220	BioBalls gone, Now what? My tank is about 6 months old and I have finally removed all the bioballs over about a month period. What can I do with that space in the wet/dry sump? I was thinking of putting some live rock and leaving enough room if I ever need to put a media bag for carbon or w/e. I'm going to leave the filter tray/scrubber on the top for the incoming water to pour through. If I leave it empty it creates a lot of noise. Has anyone found a way to run PhosBan or some kind of phosphate removal media in a wet dry chamber successfully? Edit: I forgot, also are there any macro/beneficial plants that grow in wet/dry space like that? I do have a small CF light that cycles opposite my DT lights and already have Chaeto in the refuge portion. My sump before removing bioballs

10/21/2009, 03:59 PM	#3
lordofthereef One reef to rule them all Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Leominster, MA Posts: 5,299	I assume you removed them because of their potential to be detritus traps? Replacing them with LR rubble would not solve that problem. __________________ "A dog is the only thing on earth that loves you more than you love yourself" ~ Josh Billings Visit My Home page for current build thread (click my user name and select "Visit LordoftheReef's Homepage" in the drop down menu!

10/21/2009, 04:06 PM	#4
Frogmanx82 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,515	Yeah, so why is live rock better than bioballs? If you had a decent size rock I guess you could have some nitrate conversion to nitrogen gas with anaerobic activity, but rock rubble wouldn't be any better than bioballs. __________________ Exodus 8:2 Check my homepage for tank pics and details. Current Tank Info: 90 gallon, 2x maxspect R420R LED, 4 Ocellaris Clowns, Yellow Eye Kole Tang, Flame Angel, Foxface Rabbitfish, Banggai Cardinals, Azure Damsel, rock flower anemone, cleaner shrimp, serpent star

10/21/2009, 05:41 PM	#5
koranAngel always on ** at work Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: sydney Posts: 436	god question how can rock rublles be better than bioballs im interested to know as well?? __________________ y did i start this hobby Current Tank Info: 500lt main tank 39g fuge sump....sohal tang purple tang 2clown,coral beauty banana wrasse coris wrasse royal doty cleaner shrimp coral banded shrimp flame angel bicolour angel sphinx goby cuc mixed corals

10/21/2009, 11:18 PM	#9
Frogmanx82 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,515	I don't buy that rock with its "micropores" will go anaerobic unless its a pretty big rock. If you have big rocks in your display tank, what you put in that little section won't add much nitrate conversion. Regarding bioballs creating nitrates, last I heard that was still an indispensable part of the nitrogen cycle. You can't just skip it. Ammonia - nitrite - nitrate. You have several options to treat the nitrate. Set up anaerobic zones in a DSB or live rock. Algae scrubber. Carbon dosing (vodka vinegar sugar) Leaving the bioballs in a least helps control an ammonia spike when you add a bioload to the tank. Bioballs would only be a an issue if they trapped detritus. Detritus has to go somewhere, I like to use floss to trap it and throw it out frequently. If the spot the bioballs are in is prone to collecting detritus, maybe you should just put in floss in there and change it out every few days. __________________ Exodus 8:2 Check my homepage for tank pics and details. Current Tank Info: 90 gallon, 2x maxspect R420R LED, 4 Ocellaris Clowns, Yellow Eye Kole Tang, Flame Angel, Foxface Rabbitfish, Banggai Cardinals, Azure Damsel, rock flower anemone, cleaner shrimp, serpent star Last edited by Frogmanx82; 10/21/2009 at 11:28 PM.

10/21/2009, 03:35 PM	#2
thegrun Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Garden Grove, Ca Posts: 17,023	I would fill the old bio ball chamber with live rock (rubble). I would raise the baffle before the blue sponge filter as high as possible to bring the water level up. That would keep the live rock submerged and make the second chamber (just before the sponge filter) deep enough to keep cheato in. You could put a sheet of 1" filter media just above the new live rock to quiet the water noise. Option #2 would be to put two filter socks in the old bio-ball chamber, Raise the baffle just before the blue sponge filter and add live rock in that chamber. Raise the baffle just before the return pump and add cheato in that section.

10/21/2009, 09:29 PM	#6
thegrun Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Garden Grove, Ca Posts: 17,023	Bio balls and LR both trap debris, but the tiny holes in porous live rock form oxygen depleted zones where anaerobic bacteria will colonize that actually break down nitrate, bio balls do not and so they actually end up increasing the nitrate levels in a tank.

10/21/2009, 10:54 PM	#7
Kakabub Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: SF/Sactown Posts: 220	how can i raise the baffle on the right side? (the blue filter side), I would really like to do that. Also I've considered getting a couple of mangrove seedlings, anyone know how fast they grow and if the benefit is worth it?

10/21/2009, 10:55 PM	#8
Kakabub Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: SF/Sactown Posts: 220	And yes, i took out the bioballs basically from peer pressure. everyone kept telling me I would have nitrate problems in the future, although my prams are great right now. What about some larger pieces of LR instead of rubble... I figured less surface area and more anaerobic.

10/21/2009, 11:19 PM	#10
Flipper62 Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Naperville, Il. Business Owner, President & CEO Posts: 3,045	BioBalls were designed to take the place of live rubble rock. It has ( what they claim ) to be the same surface area as live rock. And will do the same thing My personal opinion is, I dont like the BioBalls...........WHY ?? They may claim to do the same thing.......But I can guarantee you one thing. THERE ARE NO BIOBALLS IN THE OCEAN.....( sorry for yelling ) I like to keep my tanks as natural as possable. __________________ If todays automobile had followed the same development as the computer, A Rolls Royce would cost $100.00. It would get a million miles per gallon, but it would explode once a year killing everyone inside." Current Tanks... 90 gal Reef... My awesome Office BioCube....( 180 was on hold ..no time ) ... The 180 gal has been sold...Yay..yay..yay. Hobby Experience: 19 years Reef...22 years FW

10/21/2009, 11:37 PM	#11
Michael NTTH Rookie Help Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gloucester, England,UK Posts: 7,808 Blog Entries: 6	one of the lfs i visit has a massive cylinder full to the brim of bio-balls, his reef tanks are amazing, seriously, like totm quality, and every tank is spotless,the water quality is of the highest standard, he does however work tirelessly daily keeping all the tanks clean and occassionally cleaning out the filtration chambers, he also has massive uv filtration systems in place, i suppose working 10 hours a day in a store continuosly cleaning everything is the reason why, the bio-balls work for him, in my little reefing world with my other life (marriage and kids,lol) its harder to spend as much time as he does on his system, hence bio-balls wouldnt work for me, basically i think it depends on the amount of work your prepared to put into your system wether they are useful or not. __________________ Don't be afraid to ask questions, we in the new to the hobby are here to help you [For My Tank Spec,Photo Album,Articles and website, click on my name] MY Very Kindest and Warmest Regards , MIKE Current Tank Info: I have a 92 gal Corner Tank, and way too many pieces of equipment to list really, (proud member of the reef central corner club)

10/22/2009, 07:10 AM	#14
Frogmanx82 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,515	I'll toss some bioballs in on my next trip to the ocean. Let me know if you spot them. Anyway, I think bioballs get a bum rap, they aren't that bad. I should have put a smiley up before, I didn't mean to flame. I just don't understand the "they're not natural argument" when we're talking about filtration equipment. __________________ Exodus 8:2 Check my homepage for tank pics and details. Current Tank Info: 90 gallon, 2x maxspect R420R LED, 4 Ocellaris Clowns, Yellow Eye Kole Tang, Flame Angel, Foxface Rabbitfish, Banggai Cardinals, Azure Damsel, rock flower anemone, cleaner shrimp, serpent star Last edited by Frogmanx82; 10/22/2009 at 07:15 AM.

10/22/2009, 07:29 AM	#15
thegrun Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Garden Grove, Ca Posts: 17,023	[QUOTE=Frogmanx82;15896648]There are no bioballs in the ocean? There are no skimmers either. Not true! The shoreline works as a skimmer, the surf agitates the water and the proteins bind to the air bubbles producing the skimmate you see washed up on shore. When you smell "the ocean", what you actually smell is the skimmate produced by the wave action. That is what we are trying to mimic with our skimmers.

10/22/2009, 07:45 AM	#17
Timoweb Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: England, U.K. Posts: 31	Live sponges work well as water filters, I would add a few.

10/22/2009, 08:36 AM	#19
thegrun Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Garden Grove, Ca Posts: 17,023	The collection cup is the shoreline where it is deposited and eaten by a host of organisms that have carved out a niche in the ecosystem for just that purpose. I would not call it an insignificant contribution to the overall health of the ocean.

10/22/2009, 11:37 AM	#20
Frogmanx82 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,515	Way off topic now grun, lets just agree to drop it. So after all this, what is the best replacement for bioballs? I would say filter floss and change it every few days. Live rock rubble won't add anything to your filtration. You don't need bacteria sites, you have plenty of them in your display tank. What helps is exporting detritus and anything else that would accumulate on the floss. The only other helpful option would be some sort of chemical media like carbon or GFO if you don't have it running already. __________________ Exodus 8:2 Check my homepage for tank pics and details. Current Tank Info: 90 gallon, 2x maxspect R420R LED, 4 Ocellaris Clowns, Yellow Eye Kole Tang, Flame Angel, Foxface Rabbitfish, Banggai Cardinals, Azure Damsel, rock flower anemone, cleaner shrimp, serpent star

10/29/2009, 01:36 PM	#21
Kakabub Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: SF/Sactown Posts: 220	Hehe, I love a good debate... All valid points IMO, I switched out the bio balls to 3 large chunks of live rock with floss/filter medium above. I haven't raised the baffle on the right side yet, life got kinda busy so it's gonna have to wait a bit. Honestly I liked having the Bioballs in, much quieter, but we'll see how things go with the LR. Is there any solid evidence that bioballs are worse than LR or nothing? I have plenty of LR in my DT and since the BB have come out have seen no change in prams whatsoever. Amm-0 Nitrates-0 Nitrites-0 1.026 Salinity 8.2 PH 8 Kh 500ish Ca