more on cycling

[wooden_reefer]

Perhaps the idea that robust nitrification capacity at the end of a cycle is not important should be challenged.

Equilibirum is only a distant theoretical concern.

[bertoni]

Okay, I've moved this to a separate thread since it seems far beyond the scope of the original thread.

[wooden_reefer]

In the Waste water industry, there is actually a study of the aerobic bacteria mass vs time as nutrient ceases. It takes weeks for no nutrient for bacterial mass to drop by half.


In general, equilibirium is only one concern, there is often the issue of rate of approaching that equilibirum.

Often, by the time the nitrification capacity has dropped by half, I have finished stocking. If not, I can always recharge the nitrification capacity in a new medium in a separate container and then add to the tank with livestock. Then I can stock more livestock without any exposure to ammonia.

No livestock should ever be exposed to any ammonia, if I can help it.

Robust cycling is actually very essential as there is a wide enough window to be practically useful.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by wooden_reefer

Perhaps the idea that robust nitrification capacity at the end of a cycle is not important should be challenged.

Equilibirum is only a distant theoretical concern.

i dont think we have ever stated its not important, 99% of reefers here cannot afford to buy 4-5 thousand dollars worth of stock all in one go, therefore theres no need to worry about a huge robust nitrification capacity straight away, a fish shop purchasing 200-300 fish in one go needs to get it right, plan ahead and prepare, the average joe on here adds fish and corals over a period of several months, years even, due to funding, therefore adding slowly is not a problem, i fully understand your comments, but it doesnt have to be your way, the build slow, regular water changes and skim method works for many many reefers, ammonia is deadly yes, and fish should not be exposed to it, but adding 1 fish into a reef tank wont start a ammonia spike which will threaten other fish in the system, in any case you can cycle extra media and add that to the water stream when your ready to add more stock, so a strong robust cycle isnt for everyone, as mentioned were not all millionaires who can shell out serious money at the very beginning.

think about that, i understand why your stating the importance of the robust cycle, but you keep coming on here every day telling newbies they have to do this and that, and its the year 2010 and not the ninteen nineties and things have moved on, yes ok, but surely, surely you can see others points of view as well. why has the cycling of media have to be a large robust one if your adding 2 clowns and nothing else for 2 years? i have only 4 fish in a 90, my media cycle didnt need to be hugely robust, i didnt see nitrite at 300, didnt need to, wont ever need to,cant afford to either.

[sowellj]

well said

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by Michael

i dont think we have ever stated its not important, 99% of reefers here cannot afford to buy 4-5 thousand dollars worth of stock all in one go, therefore theres no need to worry about a huge robust nitrification capacity straight away, a fish shop purchasing 200-300 fish in one go needs to get it right, plan ahead and prepare, the average joe on here adds fish and corals over a period of several months, years even, due to funding, therefore adding slowly is not a problem, i fully understand your comments, but it doesnt have to be your way, the build slow, regular water changes and skim method works for many many reefers, ammonia is deadly yes, and fish should not be exposed to it, but adding 1 fish into a reef tank wont start a ammonia spike which will threaten other fish in the system, in any case you can cycle extra media and add that to the water stream when your ready to add more stock, so a strong robust cycle isnt for everyone, as mentioned were not all millionaires who can shell out serious money at the very beginning.

think about that, i understand why your stating the importance of the robust cycle, but you keep coming on here every day telling newbies they have to do this and that, and its the year 2010 and not the ninteen nineties and things have moved on, yes ok, but surely, surely you can see others points of view as well. why has the cycling of media have to be a large robust one if your adding 2 clowns and nothing else for 2 years? i have only 4 fish in a 90, my media cycle didnt need to be hugely robust, i didnt see nitrite at 300, didnt need to, wont ever need to,cant afford to either.

I believe you think of yourself as typical, but I think you are not.

I think in this hobby, most are involved and want to understand and do things on their own.

Few people would really want to have cycled rock shipped and to pay extra. (OK, you have a friend that does it for you.)

I actually save a lot of money on livestock by buying more at once. Buying more is a very useful bargaining situation. Many LFS's will bargain with a few hundred dollars purchase and not have you walk away. I pick out the best that I want and I say I want this and this and this and what is the bottonline price. Works.

And I also save on equipment because I understand how they work.

OK, you live in an apartment so you can't do so much. This I can see. You can do some, and you can use much more inorganic source of ammonia that is odorless.

Many, I believe most, reefers, live in a single family house with a garage and yard in North America.

[sowellj]

I think Michael is just trying to make the point that your approach is not the only successful way to do things.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by sowellj

I think Michael is just trying to make the point that your approach is not the only successful way to do things.

correct, i think his points are fine, i dont agree with them all, but most, but theres nothing wrong with our way to cycle media, and nothing wrong with a newcommer stocking slowly either.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by wooden_reefer

Few people would really want to have cycled rock shipped and to pay extra. (OK, you have a friend that does it for you.)

a friend of mine owns a lfs, he buys in figi live rock and cures it for several months in large vats and then sells to the public, i get good deals from him, he is a trusted person, hence the safety in buying from him, i wouldnt just buy rock from anyone at expensive prices, if i never had him to buy from i would remotely cure my own rock, but i dont need to, and over here many reefers do what i do as well, its easy and instant, and nothing wrong with this method.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by Michael

correct, i think his points are fine, i dont agree with them all, but most, but theres nothing wrong with our way to cycle media, and nothing wrong with a newcommer stocking slowly either.

There are a lot of wrong in a newbie stocking slowly by making him believe that he must allow the nitrification bacterial population to slowly match the bioload of livestock.

This is voodoo and can serious hamper his grow in skills.

OK, I must stock slowly so that the bacteria population can catch up. What am I going to do when ich broke out? How can I place all my fish in a QT tank all at once? This is impossible so I can only give up and watch them die, or do WC everyday breaking my back and pocket book.

Not every newbie will face an ich outbreak so it is good to stock slowly for disease control reason. You can always cycle in a small container and use the cycled medium to prevent any exposure to ammonia even if you stock gradually.

This is now 2010. The whole idea of using excreted ammonia from livestock to cycle should be over. Robust cycling is a natural extension. You can add a ammonia source. So how much and frequent to add? This is the most natural question that should lead to robust cycling.

There are wrong ways to cycle. Adding livestock slowly to accept lesser cycling with livestock is either wrong or not desirable. If you extend this logic, you might as well not cycle at all. If you really gradually add bioload, it might not be too bad, but many do not. Adding a five inch fish five weeks after adding two two-inch fish is very risky, not gradual in bioload addition.

Cycling with collected LR is altogether different.

[bertoni]

I think you're making mountains out of mole hills, and I don't think I've ever seen a post that said that matching nitrification bacteria populations to bio-load by slowly stocking was a necessity.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by wooden_reefer

There are a lot of wrong in a newbie stocking slowly by making him believe that he must allow the nitrification bacterial population to slowly match the bioload of livestock.

This is voodoo and can serious hamper his grow in skills.

OK, I must stock slowly so that the bacteria population can catch up. What am I going to do when ich broke out? How can I place all my fish in a QT tank all at once? This is impossible so I can only give up and watch them die, or do WC everyday breaking my back and pocket book.

Not every newbie will face an ich outbreak so it is good to stock slowly for disease control reason. You can always cycle in a small container and use the cycled medium to prevent any exposure to ammonia even if you stock gradually.

This is now 2010. The whole idea of using excreted ammonia from livestock to cycle should be over. Robust cycling is a natural extension. You can add a ammonia source. So how much and frequent to add? This is the most natural question that should lead to robust cycling.

There are wrong ways to cycle. Adding livestock slowly to accept lesser cycling with livestock is either wrong or not desirable. If you extend this logic, you might as well not cycle at all. If you really gradually add bioload, it might not be too bad, but many do not. Adding a five inch fish five weeks after adding two two-inch fish is very risky, not gradual in bioload addition.

Cycling with collected LR is altogether different.

im not saying a newbie needs to stock slowly to allow bacteria to catch up, im saying the vast majority of newbies stock slowly because they cannot afford to add all stock at once, and because of this the tank wont suffer and we do not need to robustly cycle the media to a high ammonia source, a smaller source will be fine as they usually only add a couple of fish to start, and as ive stated before, if someone wanted to add a 5 inch fish a few months after the initial media cycling then he or she could prepare extra media ready for the new introduction, still stocking slowly, they do not need to add everything at once.

we dont need to concern ourselves with adding everything at once, theres no problem with adding stock when we can afford to do so, a little preperation work is all thats required, the fact its the year 2010 is irrelevent, patience with stocking is still perfectly fine, nearly everyone does this, and has no problems.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by Michael

im not saying a newbie needs to stock slowly to allow bacteria to catch up, im saying the vast majority of newbies stock slowly because they cannot afford to add all stock at once.

There are people who really want to stock quickly for economic reason.

Anyone who orders online knows the cost of shipping per individual decreases with size of order.

Try ordering one fish at a time online. What is the cost of shipping?

Also, there is the chance of ordering like a wholesaler for larger DT's, say 150 gals and bigger. I have done so but not lately, since I now appreciate beauty and individuals more.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by bertoni

I think you're making mountains out of mole hills, and I don't think I've ever seen a post that said that matching nitrification bacteria populations to bio-load by slowly stocking was a necessity.

A lot of people do.

Stocking slowly is suggested as the great approach for the newbie.

Enough said about the prevalence of this advice. Please just observe and count.

[Reverend Reefer]

ok. im one of those newbies wooden "skooled". i kinda took wooden's advice into consideration and then after some time and sort of understanding what wooden said, i ended up doing something more like what michael does (before i read this of course, it was a couple months ago). i ended up buying live rock from an lfs in toronto that was "cured" and added it to my system before buying some "bioloaders" (fish, messy ones too, haha). i didn't buy much, and what the hell do i know, but the addition didn't seem to cause any "cycle" whatsoever. no algal blooms that used to happen when i added fish, no spikes in parameters. of course i did a little water change but that's all.

i dunno. if the concept or take home message was to increase filtration capacity (via live rock) in preparation for new bioload. or to reduce impulse buys. either way i get it. i could have cycled some media or i could buy some already cycled media/LR or i could buy smaller and do lots of water changes after i buy.

newbie got the point.

you have to do something to account for the increase in bioload to eventually (quicker the better, i know) match you filtration capacity with the bioload your system needs to support or really bad things happen.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by wooden_reefer

.

Try ordering one fish at a time online. What is the cost of shipping?

id never order fish online personally, i like to look at what i buy

[Michael]

i cant understand why adding cured media as you need it is a problem, why must the tanks media be added all at once and a robust cycle achieved, your basically saying when you start a reef tank everything goes straight in, you cant add to the system over the years, i understand the bacteria can survive for weeks even without food, but if you add a pair of clowns, and then in 6 months time decide to add a royal gramma then why do we need a huge robust cycle of the media at the beginning? why cant we add the small royal gramma for example to the tank with an extra piece of liverock when were ready? sorry i just dont get the must be robust thing, plain dont get it.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Reverend Reefer

you have to do something to account for the increase in bioload to eventually (quicker the better, i know) match you filtration capacity with the bioload your system needs to support or really bad things happen.

yes, if your adding a large fish or say a school of smaller fish to an established system then preparing extra cured mature media to add to the system to cover the extra bioload is obvious, if adding a very small fish to a thriving reef, imo the bioload wont effect the existing system, this is normal practise for most, but wooden suggests all needs to go in at the beginning and a robust cycling of media needs to occur, perhaps a lfs or a breeder would agree with him and i would under that circumstance as well, but its fine for beginners and folk short of money to add when they can afford to, a little thought is all thats needed, no big drama about robust media cycling.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by wooden_reefer

Stocking slowly is suggested as the great approach for the newbie.

.

i see where your going with this, basically the newcommer adding lots of fish into a system without the proper experience of being able to control and stabilise parameters is asking for trouble, if he or she adds 8 fish and 20 corals to a new 90 gallon tank after 6 weeks of cycling media then all will be fine to start with, but they need to keep parameters in check, in line and stable or the corals will surely wilter and die, if the husbandry needed isnt carried out the fish will suffer, ph constantly up and down, large temperature fluctuations, not good, oxygen depletion etc, rapid depletion of calcium and alkalinity, nusience algaes nearly everyone experiences in new un balanced un established tanks, trouble for sure, the concept of adding at once is realistic of course, for you and i think me, but the newcommer needs to gain more experience, perhaps the 2nd tank they start up may be fine for the robust method, i suspect most will lose a lot of stock the first time around, and most come on here asking if they are cycled, they have 3 damsels in the tank, corals, no test kits, 3 inches of crushed coral and we need to get them to slow down, not speed up.

[sowellj]

I agree. I am not contesting that wooden's approach is not possible, and am glad he has had success with it. However, it is not the only way to achieve success. Nor do I see any compelling advantages to implement this over any of the other ways of cycling a tank.