How do you compare Halides to LEDs?

[JMcAz7]

Are they being compared by PAR, or some other metric? I have a 150w HQI on my 24G nano, and I'm thinking of switching to LEDs, but I'm fresh back into reefing and don't know about this new-fangled technology. :-)

Any info and/or links would be appreciated. Thanks!

[dragoneggs]

Check out some posts by Garage1217. He has recently posted some testing that is very positive for LED vs. MH.

[JMcAz7]

Thanks!

[mike_cmu04]

Par i think is the best way to compare them and i have seen some positive results for led

[wrestle1952]

I have not seen enough hard evidence at this point to absolutely say that LED's are clearly better than MH at this point in time especially to justify the initial cost of equipment. I am POSITIVE LED lighting is the way to go when they are perfected and mass produced enough that prices go down. I still feel that time is 2-3 years away.

[Garage1217]

In short, as of right now. Leds are up to speed / close to & equal to in some cases "halides" but at a high cost. However that cost can be made up in electricity savings. I did a test a week or so ago, that test data unfortunately was deleted in a thread that got out of hand and until I get the ok to re-post that data, I will not. In short, the future of reef tank lighting has arrived so if you have the funds, go for it.

[FranktheTankTx]

Originally Posted by Garage1217

In short, as of right now. Leds are up to speed / close to & equal to in some cases "halides" but at a high cost. However that cost can be made up in electricity savings. I did a test a week or so ago, that test data unfortunately was deleted in a thread that got out of hand and until I get the ok to re-post that data, I will not. In short, the future of reef tank lighting has arrived so if you have the funds, go for it.

I don't know about making up the cost... I'm not entirely convinced yet. I understand the Maxspect is a 'cheaper' LED unit - but with that comes some questions. Last I checked, Garage1217 & others were having issues with their new LED fixture almost immediately after arrival.

I'd be careful to take the review of most who purchase an LED unit... you'll notice most will back it despite technical troubles or defects due to the $$$ they've spent on it.

As I take a look at the AI LED, I see that I could probably get away with 3 modules for a 48" tank (though they recommend 4). Either way, the upfront costs would be $1700 - $2300. While a 10 bulb T5 retrofit would cost me no more than $800. We're talking $900 - $1500 difference. The electricity savings will hardly be more than $10 - $15 per month, and that may even be a stretch.

Bulb costs? Maybe $200 per year for a T5 set up such as I suggested. With some math applied, we're talking 3 - 6 years before the savings ever were realized. By then, the farely new LED technology may have broken down &/or bulbs of it's own needed to be replaced. Keep in mind, I've noted a few people who have had LEDs burned out prior to the fixture's first year of use. Also, how many people keep the same lighting for 3 - 6 years anways? It's like cell phones, though they would certainly last you 3 - 6 years... everyone is always ready to 'upgrade'. This brings more $$$ costs.

With me saying this, I understand the Maxspect is on a different $$$ scale than that of the AI. However, it's odd to me that Maxspect owners make excuses or cover for the damaged heat sinks that seem to be regularly shipped with this item - saying "I knew that was a possibility". We all know the Maxspect comes with a far cheaper LED than that of the AI - so we should expect more frequent LED replacements.

What happens if the Maxspect breaks down (like some have already)? What are you going to use for light while you send it in to be repaired, which will take weeks & cost you shipping one of the ways there or back?

Overall, I think you're fooling yourself if you think you're going to save much if any at all going LED. Now, if you want to go LED just to go LED - knock yourself out. But again, I think most are kidding themselves if they think they are saving $$$.

I wish you luck if you choose the Maxspect... If you want to spend $$$ on LED, I think I would suggest the AI LED (Made in the USA). And of course, I was speaking in terms of us USA customers.

[Garage1217]

I never mentioned the brand, and did not make this about a brand vs. brand deal. I am clearly stating with FACT, LED's can compete with halides and there are multiple manufacturers to choose from. I proved it and so have others, and I am not just talking people on this site.

To your points
- I did have initial issues which were quickly resolved by me with the brand I chose. No issues to date. However THIS IS NOT A BRAND VS BRAND POST *LOL*
- I clearly stated I still love halides in past posts and did a 100% honest review of what I thought about product I purchased. I am not biased in any way and do not back any product that I do not like. I clearly stated my dislikes & likes
- In my case, the electricity savings were carefully calculated BEFORE I went LED. It is all apart of a total efficiency post I am working on with my system. Over the cost of a quality halide setup new which I owned. All in all, I have for a fact been able to take my system from averaging $0.05 cents per hour down to $0.02 cents per hour as part of my efficiency mods. Leds being the most crucial part of it as I went from around 525W down to 320W, even less considering I have been able to drastically change my light schedule which is still being worked over.
- LED as a technology is not new and neither are the leds being used for aquariums. It is quite basic electronics and when implemented correctly, they are VERY reliable. The power supplies built for these are not rocket science. However the dimmer controls of some are pretty fancy and nice
- Not sure what you are talking about on excuses. No one that I saw in the post made any excuses to like the product, there are / were legitimate complaints about certain things. Again this is not a post about the product I chose, it is about led lighting on a tank.
- On breakdowns, If I did not know electronics and was not an electronics tech, then I would be worried if something broke. Others will have to deal with with a slow warranty repair. Again this post is not about brands *LOL* no idea why you made it about such.

Anyways I 100% stand by my statements. Leds are here to stay, are outstandingly efficient, produce less heat. You have multiple companies making great products to choose from

To the OP, you asked about what Metric, For my comparison tests to see if the fixtures I chose could keep up with the halides they replaced, I use a light meter measuring lux. This is not the only factor, but it does tell a lot & provides a basic comparison. You can read up on a lot of my rants on my home efficiency post on this forum. Also you should check out the local forum as I see you are in Az as well

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1809131

[saltn07]

LED are here to stay, they are where light are going as far as im concerned but from a hands on perspective they still dont match MH. I tried a buddies LED beside my MH, we were just playing around but how the MH made the water shimmer the bottom was much better than the LED.

[cccapt]

Lots of good info here.
Quantitative Comparison of Reef Aquarium Lighting Technologies: Metal Halide, T5 Fluorescent and LED

[Garage1217]

Originally Posted by saltn07

LED are here to stay, they are where light are going as far as im concerned but from a hands on perspective they still dont match MH. I tried a buddies LED beside my MH, we were just playing around but how the MH made the water shimmer the bottom was much better than the LED.

What led fixture did you use? In what way do they not match MH? And interesting on the shimmer, leds in general shimmer more than halide because of multiple point sources of light. They do in all cases I have seen, even my own. So much shimmer that it almost looks out of place as I have a lot of surface agitation. I am sure any other led owner could back this up. Even my dim moonlight shimmer *LOL*

[goober35]

The money is save and used other things. With a MH you might need a chiller then you have to pay to power it. The MH put a lot of heat into the house also so your AC will run more.

[wrestle1952]

I see we are setting the stages to other great debates on which product is better blah, blah, blah. There are reefers that jump on the bandwagon and have to have the latest and greatest despite cost just to say they have it. Frank I hear you when you state people have had issues with LED's. Garage, you are right when you state LED's are here to stay and savings over years of time are beneficial. You missed my point however in stating that LED's are the future and are not quite ready yet. I have had a reef aquarium since 1986. I have seen the progression of sand shelfs, to wet-dry with the various media, berlin, zeovit, blah, blah, blah. I don't have the type of deep pockets Garage has so initial cost for LED set up is impossible at this time. I am returning to work after 18 months of unemployment so please forgive me for not seeing your logic in justification of cost. I am using equipment I have had for years. What my experience has taught me in this hobby is to be patient and wait for prices to come down. My first one bulb (4700K) MH system cost over a thousand dollars in 1988. Look at the prices now and choices of ballasts, bulbs, etc compared to 1988 and you'll see a BIG difference in price, choices, and quality. Same thing with skimmers. Improvements have been made over time and prices have dropped. There are other comparisons to be made. When VCR's first came out they were thousands of dollars. You can't give them away now. Blu-Ray has dropped dramatically. I know so many people that HAD to get the IPhone when it first came out and spent 499 bucks for the 4 gig version and 599 for the 8 gig version. How much are they now?

My point is being patient and wait until all the bugs have been worked out and things are perfected. If this is done the happy reefer can enjoy low cost initial set up AND long term energy savings. I will use my MH system with cooling fans that has the intake fan a foot away from my air conditioning vent until LED's (and they will) improve the bugs and drop down in price. Like all of you I have contemplated switching light systems. I was willing to try T5's but will now wait for the perfection of the LED systems. It is coming in the very near future, it just isn't here yet.

[Garage1217]

Hmmm I agree on some points and others not. Little confusing, I never said leds are not quite ready yet, Post leads one to beleive I did.

Anyways my cost justification is as follows and is very simple. I compared a "new" halide setup to what I paid for my setup.

New setup/pair of 250W Halides. Of course anyone can go cheaper when purchasing used so keep that in mind as again, this only compares new product to new product. Also some cheaper products are available to run halides. I just tossed some prices of of common name brand units I have run or others have run.
- $150 shipped for a pair of quality pendants = $300
- Quality e-ballasts $130ea shipped = $260
- Quality bulbs / prices on average $55-$90ea shipped so will say $150 shipped average
- Quality connectos to mate ballasts to pendants $10
- LED moon light system, only if you choose to run one $30
- Quality timers for halides + moonlight $50
- I could add in more power strips to accomodate timers and so forth but will leave them out
Total $800.00

My led setup for the manufacturer I chose.
- $980 SHIPPED which includes timers, moonlights gizmos & widgets

Total difference of $180.00

I sold off a frag tank I had no desire to run any longer and my 2 pairs of halide setups which paid for my lighting change. Also sold some frags which helped pay for other efficiency mods to my tank. So in short, did not cost me anything more than I already spent to go this route. I understand this is my situation and most others would not be in this situation.

Now for the electrical savings. Lets go off rated face value only. I pay $0.10 cents a kwh.
- At 500W x 10 hours a day = $182 per year
- At 320W x 10 hours a day = $116 per year
Difference of $66 a year.

Now, for most led fixtures on the market including mine. You can control the individual sets of leds. This leads to more power savings, equal viewing time.
Old setup
- Halides on for 10 hours a day at 500w
- New controllable setup, I can stagger between low power useage of the 3W white + 3W blue leds & then use the high power 30W leds for a 6 hour window only to aid in growth. On my setup with the light schedule I am running, My 10h daily average is now 255w Now my yearly savings just went to $89.18 a year which is not bad at all.



Now since I am on a rant. Lets talk operating costs.
In the last 2 years of owning halides which I loved / still love I have had the following issues.
- 1 ballast replacement as it died. Took 2.5 weeks to get this resolved grrrrrr
- 5 bulb failures. Including higher end brands. One of which running me $100 a bulb and took a lot of arm twisting to get them to replace it even though it was 2-3 months old. 3 of those failures came from one brand but will not mention them. So no one can say there is no cost other than parts when oweing a halide setup or t5 setup period. Crap happens & crap dies for no reason same as any product.


On the led fixtures, I do expect failures plain and simple over the corase of the ownership. If I took the 18 month warranty out of the picture, the 3W leds I run cost around $2.50 shipped each to repalce. The 30W units cost $19 to replace. And again I am covered under warranty as the manufacturer has proven to provide excellent service so far to others that have had issues. Although shipping takes awhile. But then again I have had US based companies take awhile to replace parts.

In general however, Other led fixture manufacturers should be much faster to replace parts or provide help since they are US based.

In short LED's currently DO make perfect sense depending on your situation. Led's themselves have been proven reliable and the simple power supplies that run them are not new fancy technology that has to be proven.

Some may find it benificial cost wise to run halides, especially if purchasing used setups or going to cheaper all in one fixtures. Makes total sense to me and anyone else.

Now if one can afford it or afford it by selling off the lights they already own & want to reap the benifits of electrical savings, then led are the way to go! Also a lot of other benifits come into play such as heating of the home with halides. I live in Az so when my AC is fighting the halides, it cost me more to operate. The leds run many times cooler so that should help this years electrical bills.

For me, in the end it is all about total system efficiency. My OCD has made me try to build the most efficient aquarium that I can run out of my current system. has been a lot of fun doing it as well!

[/endrant]

[tufacody]

I find it humerous when people are posting that they have "proved" LEDs worked. My Solaris has been proving that for two years. Its nice to see that attitudes are changing because of personal experience with LED and not because of defensivie posturing.

With that said, one of the things I have learned the hard way in the hobby is never to buy a product that hasn't been established for at least a few years.

[Garage1217]

If no one purchased a new product for a few years after it was released, there would be no new product on the market. I find this logic strange however I understand the risk involved with a new product / company. I have purchased many brand new products. Some have been flawless and some less than flawless.... and some have been royal crap.

And you are correct. LED's have been lighting aquariums and growing corals for years and are proven. When I said "I proved it" My meaning was that I proved it could compete with my old halide setup I had which even I was skeptical of. Nothing more. We all, already know leds can grow coral very successfully.

[wrestle1952]

tufacody, my point exactly. Garage, I am using equipment that I have had for quite some time. Excellent electronic MH ballasts and HQI set-up. OCD aside, I would rather wait and pay for something that has withstood the test of time (and showing an excellent growth rate with sps corals not just color rendition) and at a price that is right. tufcody I am pleased your Solaris system has lasted so long. I've heard nothing but issues with them. Hell, PFO went bankrupt (I have their electronic MH ballasts) which has caused my hesitancy from diving in now. Do you have any pictures of your tank using the Solaris? I would like to see your SPS if you have any.

[tufacody]

Someone will always buy the new products. But it won't be me, again.

Wrestle, my Solaris has had all three power supplies replaced. Before PFO went out of biz they replaced my 72" with an "american" built model. Since they did that I have not had a single LED failure, but I have had to replace the ballasts. I used Antec power supplies and they seem to be great, no failures.

I have had SPS under the Solaris, but I have three systems. My SPS system is under MH. I found the SPS did ok under the Solaris, but undoubtedly better under the MH. My 180-Solaris is primarily LPS, and they have done fantastic, as has a clam. I'd post pictures but don't want to take the thread too off track.

[FranktheTankTx]

Garage -

I was not necessarily calling you out in my post. I think you took it a little person since I quoted you. However, I was more interested in & I bold highlighted the "electricity comment" because I wanted to explain that the savings are not as much as many LED owners like to say. Your math states as much - $66 per year savings. Big deal, in my book.

I think LED lighting is awesome & I would buy one for my tank in a heartbeat. But not from Hong Kong or China where I have to concern myself with a 'cheaper' built system & shipping costs & slow warranty repair... not too mention, sub par build quality. I would buy an AI LED in a New York minute, but as I stated in my post, the initial costs prevent me from doing so. And I wouldn't make the initial costs up for 6 or 7 years probably if everything went 100% in my favor.

The other thing that most don't account for is, like I said, upgrade. Very few LED owners will keep their lighting for 6, 7, or 8 years. Hell, I'm guessing 50% or more will leave the hobby for some reason or another by then. The other 50% are more likely to talk themselves into upgrading to the next best LED fixture by then & incur more initial costs.

Again, I wasn't calling anyone or putting words into anyone's mouth. It's purely an observation & opinion of mine.

[gambitcobra]

wow a lighting battle LOL. just kidding everyone

Listen the main reason I went with LED was because in florida it gets ridiculously hot in the summer and I do not need more over my tank with MH, so I did alot of research and went to with Maxspect BECAUSE its cheap, looks clean, and If it breaks OWELL, im sure i can fix it or i can use the shell to be a newer DYI led or whatever down the road.

Yes we all have our reasons for choosing different lighting for our tanks, and some people want to have the latest and greatest just like cell phone like someone said earlier. People will spend big dollars to be up to par with electronics and leds are just that right now. I have already changed so many lights in my home to LED and I know they are way over priced but just the fact there new and different is why i purchase them.

anyways sorry for the rambling but there will always be something newer and better next year and we will all do this same convo again lol.

By the way Frankthetank, thats a awesome name from old school! favorite movie. And yes the AI units are very nice and they are more advanced i should say then the maxspect.

also if you google reefstock, they had a huge led section and you can see that everyone is doing it lol

[Lurking]

I would love to see pics of an established sps system utilizing LED lighting only. Can anyone point me in the right direction with a link?