Ich lesson learned

[rayn]

My tank about a hour ago

my tank now

I got out a rabbitfish, blue tang, and a clown skunk. Totally destroyed my rock work.

[Mavrk]

So what is the lesson learned? ...
QT every new fish for at least 6 weeks.
Ich stinks.
There are worse diseases than ich and it is lucky that it wasn't any worse without a QT first.
Trying to get fish out of a tank is hard even if it is only 3 fish.
Those people who lost hundreds of dollars worth of fish before they started to QT might have actually been trying to help.

Just wondering what you learned

[rayn]

Ich sucks. Biggest problem I have with this is they went through QT for four weeks in cupramine. Then still another two without. Still got ich within a week of being in the DT. I'm gonna hit them again with another QT or HT whatever and let the 120 sit fallow.
I lost all my fish in my 55 to ich, so I know that feeling too, but I really don't want that in my 120.
It's not so much my lesson to learn, even though I have, but to all others who don't QT and get ich. Prepare to destroy that pretty live rock you just got all set up the way you like it.

[Quill*fighter]

Yeah, that's a lesson I had to learn about three times Wish you the best with your fish.

[Sisterlimonpot]

And to add to that, Even when we QT all our fish with hypo/copper we need to remember that ich can come in as hitchhikers on coral, inverts and rock. So to truly have an ich free tank we need to QT everything that goes into our expensive tanks.

[beadlocked450r]

Ok so I'm new to this stuff,when u qt ur new livestock,fish and inverts what is the best way to do it? What's the best stuff to use?what's the best method?do you do this to everything?snails.crabs,shrimp,anomies?

[Jstdv8]

Originally Posted by Sisterlimonpot

And to add to that, Even when we QT all our fish with hypo/copper we need to remember that ich can come in as hitchhikers on coral, inverts and rock. So to truly have an ich free tank we need to QT everything that goes into our expensive tanks.

That's what I'm talking about right there!

[rayn]

I am now doing just that. I have three QT setup now. Two for fish and one for corals. At this moment in time I have all my corals in the DT, as it will remain fallow for the 8-12 weeks. Two fish QT are going and I will start the cupramine tomorrow night. Figured I would give them a night of rest and eating before the copper. There is no rock, no sand, just a few pvc pipes and a plastic sunken ship in one.
I just hope someone learns from my lesson as well as myself and using patience in the future.

[beadlocked450r]

But when u do the qt for the corals and anomes what if anything do you put in the tank?

[rayn]

Nothing that I know of. Corals you can dip. Some say that dip and add to your DT, but I would still worry about ich if you are not sure. I just lost a powder brown tang in QT from ich, even though the LFS swore they had eradicated it from their tanks. If you let the coral sit in QT you save yourself a headache later.

[beadlocked450r]

When you say dip,what are we dipping into?just fresh water?

[rayn]

They make coral dip. I just got some called reef dip by seachem. There are others out there too.
You make up a gallon or so of your DT water and mix in the amount of dip slution you need and let the corals sit in that water for 10-15-20 minutes. Whatever the directions are.

[steelhead77]

Good God people! Ask the reefers you get your rock etc. from if they have ich in their tank. If they say no, there is no need to QT everything that goes in your tank! If they say yes, DON'T BUY IT! Jeesh! Rock, corals etc, can NOT host ich. This is complete overkill! The chance of bringing something in on a rock or coral is just about zilch! Why make this any more complicated than it needs to be? Once again; ich cannot be hosted on rock, corals, anemones, invertibrates etc. Please cite some reliable studies that show this to be the case, otherwise, you are wasting your time and creating much more work and expense then you need to.

[fcmatt]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

Good God people! Ask the reefers you get your rock etc. from if they have ich in their tank. If they say no, there is no need to QT everything that goes in your tank! If they say yes, DON'T BUY IT! Jeesh! Rock, corals etc, can NOT host ich. This is complete overkill! The chance of bringing something in on a rock or coral is just about zilch! Why make this any more complicated than it needs to be? Once again; ich cannot be hosted on rock, corals, anemones, invertibrates etc. Please cite some reliable studies that show this to be the case, otherwise, you are wasting your time and creating much more work and expense then you need to.

You are very trusting of others. I would not trust anyone when it comes to getting
new things for the tank. People will swear up and down they are ich free and it is up
to each of us to decide who or when to trust. Anyway...

Seems to me if you bring home a snail in a bag of water.. the snail's shell contains
some water inside it. That water could contain ich.

Ditto with a new frag. You acclimate it by putting the bag in the tank, slowing
pour in some display water, and then finally bring it out of the bag into the
display. Are you sure that water dripping from the coral does not contain ich?

Seems a very reasonable precaution to me. One mistake can ruin a huge display
tank with ich.

People are not saying ich is using a snail or a coral as a host.. but they are saying
that the water those two things are in could contain the parasite in one of
its stages is all.

[rayn]

Originally Posted by fcmatt

You are very trusting of others. I would not trust anyone when it comes to getting
new things for the tank. People will swear up and down they are ich free and it is up
to each of us to decide who or when to trust. Anyway...

Seems to me if you bring home a snail in a bag of water.. the snail's shell contains
some water inside it. That water could contain ich.

Ditto with a new frag. You acclimate it by putting the bag in the tank, slowing
pour in some display water, and then finally bring it out of the bag into the
display. Are you sure that water dripping from the coral does not contain ich?

Seems a very reasonable precaution to me. One mistake can ruin a huge display
tank with ich.

People are not saying ich is using a snail or a coral as a host.. but they are saying
that the water those two things are in could contain the parasite in one of
its stages is all.

Agreed. Like I said, I lost all my fish to ich in my 55. I set up my 120 and swore I would do all I could to keep ich out. I got some fish, went through QT. In the 120 they went and ich. Now maybe I did the QT wrong, not enough time or not the right level of copper, who knows. But I am going to try again. I want the 120 disease free and able to house whatever I want and will co-habitate. I plan on this tank being set up for years, so what is a few weeks or months in the long term.

[steelhead77]

Originally Posted by fcmatt

You are very trusting of others. I would not trust anyone when it comes to getting
new things for the tank. People will swear up and down they are ich free and it is up
to each of us to decide who or when to trust. Anyway...

Seems to me if you bring home a snail in a bag of water.. the snail's shell contains
some water inside it. That water could contain ich.

Ditto with a new frag. You acclimate it by putting the bag in the tank, slowing
pour in some display water, and then finally bring it out of the bag into the
display. Are you sure that water dripping from the coral does not contain ich?

Seems a very reasonable precaution to me. One mistake can ruin a huge display
tank with ich.

People are not saying ich is using a snail or a coral as a host.. but they are saying
that the water those two things are in could contain the parasite in one of
its stages is all.

Please.... If you get the flu, do you put yourself in a bubble for four weeks until you have no symptoms? Ich is NOT a death sentance for your tank, neither is the flu for you. Can you die from it? Sure, if you are unhealthy and have other problems. Same with a fish. Can they die from it? Sure. Are they likely to? Not very. Usually there are other issues that will lead to death besides ich. The chance of a snail having an ich cyst or tromite or whatever is VERY small. This is like saying that if you are in the Superdome and someone sneezes, you are going to get sick. Sure it CAN happen, but will it? Not likely. I know that most here will argue with me till the cows come home, but come on, I'd like to see one study (just one) that shows how ich can be transfered from a snail to your tank. Can it happen, sure.... will it? Not very likely. Just like you COULD get the flu from someone in the Superdome, but your not likely to.

Maybe we should do a poll to see how many people actually QT EVERYTHING that goes into their tank.

Look, all I'm saying is that for the vast majority of us, this is a non issue. I would be willing to bet that MOST of us here do NOT QT everything that goes into our tank. And the vast majority of us will NOT get ich from a snail or a rock or a coral or whatever. Again - Why make this hobby more difficult than it needs to be?

[Stuart60611]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

Look, all I'm saying is that for the vast majority of us, this is a non issue. I would be willing to bet that MOST of us here do NOT QT everything that goes into our tank. And the vast majority of us will NOT get ich from a snail or a rock or a coral or whatever. Again - Why make this hobby more difficult than it needs to be?

Unfortunately, I think you may be understating the reality. Understanding the parasite's life cycle suggests otherwise. When you are dealing with a fairly infested tank (which there are many), there are countless thousands of ich cysts lying on every surface in the tank, rock, corals, and the sandbed. Tanking sand, rock or even a coral from such a system and placing it directly in an ich free display would indeed be a substantial risk and likely infect the system. This is where the myth comes from that ich is in every system and impossible to erradicate. It only seems this way because people who do not quarantine eveything eventually infect their system, thereby creating the false perception that you cannot keep a system free from ich. Ich is a parasite that does mot materialize spontaneously out of thin air. It has to be introduced. Unfortuantley, if you do not quarantine everything, the chances are extemely high that you will if you add a lot of things to your system eventually introduce ich, particuarlly b/c most of our sytems are probably infected with it.

[steelhead77]

Originally Posted by Stuart60611

Unfortunately, I think you may be understating the reality. Understanding the parasite's life cycle suggests otherwise. When you are dealing with a fairly infested tank (which there are many), there are countless thousands of ich cysts lying on every surface in the tank, rock, corals, and the sandbed. Tanking sand, rock or even a coral from such a system and placing it directly in an ich free display would indeed be a substantial risk and likely infect the system. This is where the myth comes from that ich is in every system and impossible to erradicate. It only seems this way because people who do not quarantine eveything eventually infect their system, thereby creating the perception that you cannot keep a system free from ich.

Please show some serious studies that show this to be the case. Otherwise, this is fear-mongering and overkill. Once again - CAN it happen? Sure. Will it happen? Not very likely. Otherwise you will NEVER be able to put anything into your tank, because there will always be a CHANCE that one stray cyst will be left alive and will multiple rapidly and decimate your tank. Come on, let's get real here. Should we take precautions, sure. QT fish? Maybe. I could argue either way. But this is an aquarium we're talking about, we're not quarantining for small pox or anything.

[BigRig450]

Originally Posted by rayn

I just lost a powder brown tang in QT from ich, even though the LFS swore they had eradicated it from their tanks. If you let the coral sit in QT you save yourself a headache later.

Rayn i kno we live in the same town so i kno which LFS you are talkin bout and they both are a joke when it comes to livestock.i couldnt ever keep anything alive for more than 2days thats why i buy all my livestock online even corals because the coral tables in town still have fish in them and thats just one reason why i dont buy anything alive intown nothin but bad luck, but i do buy supplies here.

[Stuart60611]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

Please show some serious studies that show this to be the case. Otherwise, this is fear-mongering and overkill. Once again - CAN it happen? Sure. Will it happen? Not very likely. Otherwise you will NEVER be able to put anything into your tank, because there will always be a CHANCE that one stray cyst will be left alive and will multiple rapidly and decimate your tank. Come on, let's get real here. Should we take precautions, sure. QT fish? Maybe. I could argue either way. But this is an aquarium we're talking about, we're not quarantining for small pox or anything.

I have read many studies on the subject and suggest you research the same before you make such statements. Ich does multiply incredibly aggressively, and a single micoscopic cyst produces hundreds of offspring. Also, there have been studies conducted on how well the free swimming stage of the parasite is able to successfully seek out a host fish, and the result is that the parasite is very good at it. Remember, in the ocean ich is not in a confined space and has a much more difficult time locating a host fish and therefore has evolved some elaborate scenses to locate a host necessary for survival. Studies have shown that it is able to literally smell out a fish very effectively. In confined system, the free swiming stage of the parasite is easily able to make its mark because the fish have no way of escape. This allows the parasites to multiply and grow much more rapidly than would be able to in the ocean. As such, the introduction of just a few cysts has a very substantial probablility of creating an outright infestation because in a closed system the free swimming ich that hatch have little trouble making their mark.

[Quill*fighter]

As a general practice quarantine is a good idea especially when we're in the "new to the hobby" section. In twelve years I've had 2 tanks completely wiped out by ich. It isn't pretty and watching your fish die is a really discouraging thing to have to do when you're just getting into the hobby, especially when you likely aren't familiar with any of the methods to treat it.

I'd guess many people leave the hobby after getting a tank wiped out.

This is especially true in a larger established tank where it's almost impossible to catch the affected fish after the fact without tearing apart your whole reef.

Have I quarantined every single fish or coral I've bought? No, but at least twice I've wished I would have

[steelhead77]

Originally Posted by Stuart60611

I have read many studies on the subject and suggest you research the same before you make such statements. Ich does multiply incredibly aggressively, and a single micoscopic cyst produces hundreds of offspring. Also, there have been studies conducted on how well the free swimming stage of the parasite is able to successfully seek out a host fish, and the result is that the parasite is very good at it. Remember, in the ocean ich is not in a confined space and has a much more difficult time locating a host fish and therefore has evolved some elaborate scenses to locate a host necessary for survival. Studies have shown that it is able to literally smell out a fish very effectively. In confined system, the free swiming stage of the parasite is easily able to make its mark because the fish have no way of escape. This allows the parasites to multiply and grow much more rapidly than would be able to in the ocean. As such, the introduction of just a few cysts has a very substantial probablility of creating an outright infestation because in a closed system the free swimming ich that hatch have little trouble making their mark.

So you can NEVER add anything to your tank because you MIGHT inadvertantly get a parasite hitchhiking in. OK. If that's what you want, that's up to you. Again, it's not very likely to happen. But if you choose to worry about it and can afford a QT that can hold all of your new live rock, corals, etc then go for it. But, how will you ever know if your QT is parasite free?

[steelhead77]

Originally Posted by Quill*fighter

As a general practice quarantine is a good idea especially when we're in the "new to the hobby" section. In twelve years I've had 2 tanks completely wiped out by ich. It isn't pretty and watching your fish die is a really discouraging thing to have to do when you're just getting into the hobby, especially when you likely aren't familiar with any of the methods to treat it.

I'd guess many people leave the hobby after getting a tank wiped out.

This is especially true in a larger established tank where it's almost impossible to catch the affected fish after the fact without tearing apart your whole reef.

Have I quarantined every single fish or coral I've bought? No, but at least twice I've wished I would have

QT'ing new fish....sure I can see that, however it could be argued that this causes more stress and thus will not be effective in the long run. But OK. QT'ing corals and rock? Complete overkill IMO.

[Stuart60611]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

But, how will you ever know if your QT is parasite free?

Easy, for non-fish, you keep one quarantine that you never have any fish. All new non fish items added to the non fish quarantine remain their for 8 weeks. Then you know it is safe to add the new non fish item from the quarantine to the display because the parasite needs fish to survive. All new fish additions imo should be treated in a separate hospital tank profolatically for parasites to reliably avoid parasite introduction. These do not need to be expensive set ups and can be made to be broken down very easily and stored when not in use. All you need is two plastic tubs, cheap light and filter for the fish hospital tank, and a bit better power compact light, heater, and filter for the non fish quarantine. Both quarantines and corresponding equipment could be easily purchased for less than $150 US.

[Jstdv8]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

So you can NEVER add anything to your tank because you MIGHT inadvertantly get a parasite hitchhiking in. OK. If that's what you want, that's up to you. Again, it's not very likely to happen. But if you choose to worry about it and can afford a QT that can hold all of your new live rock, corals, etc then go for it. But, how will you ever know if your QT is parasite free?

Steelhead again and again comes up with the same thing. wants case studies when there is far more evidence against his case than for it.

Is it really that hard to get a piece of live rock or a snail and let it sit in a tank by itself with no fish for 8 weeks? I mena honestly, it doesnt hardly anything at all to run a 10g QT (or even a larger one for that matter).
a very small heater and a very small powerhead and a very small filter and that's it.
There is nothing difficult about it at all. I have 22 nassy snails in my QT right now, nothing else in there, no sand, no rock, no nothing, they just kick around in there, I feed the tank lightly every 3 days.

I have a feeling that your additude comes from the fact you are too impatient to wait the 8 weeks when you are all excited about your new purchases and want to see them in your DT.
They are just as interesting in the QT as they are in your DT.
my QT has had liverock, corals, inverts in it and now because of all of those things I also have a bunch of pods living in there as well which are fun to watch too.

If you don't want to go the extra mile to ensure your DT doesnt have ich so be it, to each his own. I just don't see why you always have to beat up on everyone who does want to do it right the first time.

Ohh well, see ya agin in the next ich post with the same argument.