Copper as QT prophylactic

[oxford]

I picked up two juvie scooter blennies and have them in QT. I am debating the merit of using copper as a parasite prophylactic. I've seen where mandarin dragonets are sensitive to copper--does this apply also to the scooter blenny (which is technically an ocelatted dragonet)? Being new at this, I'm not comfortable using hyposalinity. I've also read that they should only be treated if symptoms are present because they are somewhat resistant to parasites. Any feedback is appreciated. The scooters and I thank you!

[muttley000]

I wouldnt use copper on them, If they seem healthy do a PH adjusted FW dip.

[oxford]

Pardon my ignorance--is there a guide somewhere?

[muttley000]

Originally Posted by oxford

Pardon my ignorance--is there a guide somewhere?

This ought to help

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm

[oxford]

Beautiful--thanks! I'll check it out.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[steelhead77]

Said it before, I'll say it again....WHY TREAT IF THERE ARE NO SYMPTOMS? This unnecessarily stresses the fish. QT and observe. If no symptom in a couple weeks, add it to your tank. This ain't rocket science, people!

BTW you better have a pretty big tank with a huge pod population to support two scooter blennies.

[muttley000]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

Said it before, I'll say it again....WHY TREAT IF THERE ARE NO SYMPTOMS? This unnecessarily stresses the fish. QT and observe. If no symptom in a couple weeks, add it to your tank. This ain't rocket science, people!

BTW you better have a pretty big tank with a huge pod population to support two scooter blennies.

This species does notoriously bad in QT. I agree with the QT and observe 95% of the time, although 2 weeks is only half to a third the time I use.

[oxford]

No, not rocket science, but perhaps a bit more complicated than you suggest, steelhead. As I said, this is a debate on the merits of prophylactic treatment. Stress-free transport and introduction is not possible, so my goal is to minimize the impact on the whole system. I would rather unnecessarily medicate 2 new inhabitants than risk contaminating the whole system. A lack of observable symptoms does not guarantee the absence of dangerous parasites or bacteria, especially with a resistant species.

And I'll thank you not to SHOUT!

[jeff@zina.com]

Copper isn't a great prophylactic treatment. Formalin would be smarter, though hyposalinity or a freshwater dip would be less of a risk.

And I'm in the don't treat crowd. We're not talking vaccinations or supplemental diet/vitamins, we're talking about medications without any visible reason to medicate. We don't give our relatives antibiotics when they come to stay for the holidays, why do it to fish? If Grandma has flu symptoms, then treat her, not before.

Jeff

[oxford]

Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate your well-reasoned argument.

I decided against prophylactic treatment, for the record. These guys--actually guy and girl, I believe--appear to be in great health. Thank you all for weighing in.

[steelhead77]

Sorry, wasn't meaning to shout, just add emphasis. It just bugs me all the mis-information out there. Like Jeff said, and I've said before, you don't give yourself chemo because you might get cancer.

[Palting]

C'mon, steel. One man's misinformation is another man's bible. Just give your opinion and let the other's alone. Like me, I believe in Hindu reincarnantion, and since you don't, I believe you will be reborn as a slug in the next life . Heh-heh-heehhhhhh.

Just in case you took me seriously, I'm kidding!!! I don't think you'll be reborn as a slug. A hermit crab, well, maybe .

[Stuart60611]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

Sorry, wasn't meaning to shout, just add emphasis. It just bugs me all the mis-information out there. Like Jeff said, and I've said before, you don't give yourself chemo because you might get cancer.

This analogy does not hold up as it relates to ich. Cancer is not contageous. If one of your fish in the display gets ich, than all of your fish in the display will likely become infected. If you get cancer, you are not going to give it to someone else. Also, quarantine sometimes does not work in discovering a low level ich infestation, particularlly when, as often with ich, the parasite remains relatively confined to the gill area where you cannot see the parasite. Studies have shown that approximatley 1/3 of all fish sold retail have a parasite. Many times such parasites are missed in quarantine. Inadvertantly, hobbyiest then introduce these parasites to their displays even when quarantining. The question you have ask whether to treat regardless of observance of a parasite is whether you want to risk your other fish in the display and how onerous it will be to treat all of your fish in the display if the display becomes infected with a parasite. Longer quarantine times will minimize the chances of missing a parasite, but even then longer quarantine times sometimes are ineffective at discovering a parasite. You treat new fish regardless of whether they show signs of a parasite not only to rid your new fish of any parasites, but you so treat to also prevent your other fish in your display from being infected with parasites from the introduction to the display of the new fish. Once you have a display full of fish which has been infected with a parasite, it can often result in fish losses, diminished health of the fish in the display, and quite an onerous task to rid your display of the parasite. As the old saying goes, never bet what you cannot afford to loose.

[jeff@zina.com]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

Sorry, wasn't meaning to shout, just add emphasis. It just bugs me all the mis-information out there. Like Jeff said, and I've said before, you don't give yourself chemo because you might get cancer.

Well...

In about three weeks I start a round of preventative chemo.

Jeff

[steelhead77]

Originally Posted by Stuart60611

This analogy does not hold up as it relates to ich. Cancer is not contageous. If one of your fish in the display gets ich, than all of your fish in the display will likely become infected. If you get cancer, you are not going to give it to someone else. Also, quarantine sometimes does not work in discovering a low level ich infestation, particularlly when, as often with ich, the parasite remains relatively confined to the gill area where you cannot see the parasite. Studies have shown that approximatley 1/3 of all fish sold retail have a parasite. Many times such parasites are missed in quarantine. Inadvertantly, hobbyiest then introduce these parasites to their displays even when quarantining. The question you have ask whether to treat regardless of observance of a parasite is whether you want to risk your other fish in the display and how onerous it will be to treat all of your fish in the display if the display becomes infected with a parasite. Longer quarantine times will minimize the chances of missing a parasite, but even then longer quarantine times sometimes are ineffective at discovering a parasite. You treat new fish regardless of whether they show signs of a parasite not only to rid your new fish of any parasites, but you so treat to also prevent your other fish in your display from being infected with parasites from the introduction to the display of the new fish. Once you have a display full of fish which has been infected with a parasite, it can often result in fish losses, diminished health of the fish in the display, and quite an onerous task to rid your display of the parasite. As the old saying goes, never bet what you cannot afford to loose.

Oh jeeze, here we go again.....Ok, how about head lice. Shave your head and dip it Rid, just because you might get it from your 5 year old. Anyway....So you're going to treat for something that you yourself state that you have 66% chance of not having. I'm all for QT and observe, but unless you know what you're doing, and most newbies don't, you probably have better than 66% chance of killing the fish in QT.

[Stuart60611]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

Oh jeeze, here we go again.....So you're going to treat for something that you yourself state that you have 66% chance of NOT having. I'm all for QT and observe, but unless you know what your doing, and most newbies don't, you probably have better than 66% chance of killing the fish in QT.

And if you infect your display with a parasite, what are the chances that your other fish in the display will live? I would much rather risk the health of a single fish in quarantine than the other 8 in my display. Plus once my display is infected, do I have quarantine facilities for my 8 other fish? Can I manage to leave my display fallow without fish for 8 weeks? What are the chances that someone new to the hobby is going to be able to spot a low level ich infestation in quarantine? Which is worse risking the health of a single fish or dealing with these consequences?

[steelhead77]

Ok...My last response to you, Stuart. How do you expect a newbie to effectively treat with either copper or hypo, when they are just learning about a saltwater reef and have had their system up for maybe a month or so and they're struggling to just keep their salinity where it needs to be? There may be a time and place for your advice but, IMHO, it ain't when first starting out.

[Palting]

Here, guys, read this. Hot off the press: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1911940

BTW, did y'all get your flu vaccine yet? At least we humans don't have to go into QT .

[RBU1]

Well if I had to do it all over again and was a newbie that did not want to QT.....I would not buy anything from a LFS. All my purchases would come from Live Aquaria Divers Den....and even then you are still taking a chance. QT is not easy....I have lost a decent amount of fish in QT. I guess I would rather lose fish in QT then infect my entire tank. I have a black tang coming tomorrow that will go in my QT.....Say a prayer for me and the black tang...PLEASE!!!!

[csarkar001]

not to hijack this thread but dont scooters eat the normal fish foods? must they have copepods?

[camp]

I was thinking about using seachems paraguard as a prohlactic treatment. It says it does a veriaty of things, plus ick. I dont know if it would work for what we want it to do. Mabey a litte safer.

[Stuart60611]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

Ok...My last response to you, Stuart. How do you expect a newbie to effectively treat with either copper or hypo, when they are just learning about a saltwater reef and have had their system up for maybe a month or so and they're struggling to just keep their salinity where it needs to be? There may be a time and place for your advice but, IMHO, it ain't when first starting out.

A lot easier for a newbie to deal with the difficulties of hypo or copper than it is for a newbie to deal with a parasitic display filled with fish. This hobby is not easy at any stage. What we are left with is balancing risk so as to minimize risk and make things as easy as we can. No approach is free from risk or difficulties. It is a matter of managing them most effectively so as to minimize risk and difficulties. Dealing with a display tank full of fish and parasites is so much more difficult than treating a single fish. Moreover, risking the life of a single fish is less potentially costly than risking many other fish in your display.

[Stuart60611]

Originally Posted by RBU1

Well if I had to do it all over again and was a newbie that did not want to QT.....I would not buy anything from a LFS. All my purchases would come from Live Aquaria Divers Den....and even then you are still taking a chance. QT is not easy....I have lost a decent amount of fish in QT. I guess I would rather lose fish in QT then infect my entire tank. I have a black tang coming tomorrow that will go in my QT.....Say a prayer for me and the black tang...PLEASE!!!!

Best of luck with the black tang. Just a thought on your difficulties with quarantine. Have you thought about, perhaps, improving your quarantine system, and specifically, increasing its size? A large quarantine system goes a long way imo in assuring fish survive the process.

[RBU1]

I think I have a more then adequate QT system. Its a 30 long with a W/D filter large enough for a 125. In my opinion the smaller the QT the better. Its easier to do large water changes on a smaller tank. I change 80% of the water weekly.

[Stuart60611]

Originally Posted by RBU1

I think I have a more then adequate QT system. Its a 30 long with a W/D filter large enough for a 125. In my opinion the smaller the QT the better. Its easier to do large water changes on a smaller tank. I change 80% of the water weekly.

Just a thought, but the size of your quarantine tank could be the root of your problems. Although a smaller water volume allows you to keep water quality up through easy large water changes and an oversized filter, it does pose some other major problems. Crowding has been known to make fish less able to fight off parasites. You certainly would never house your black tang long term in a 30 long b/c it needs so much more space. As such, placing the black tang in an undersized 30 long causes the fish to suffer a great deal of stress because it just needs more space to feel relaxed. If you treat the black tang already stressed in a 30 gallon water volume, then the stress just increases. A larger quarantine water volume may greatly eliminate stress the fish suffers while in quarantine and thereby increase its chances of survival. A cheap large plastic tub holding 75 or 100 gallons could work. Plus, the larger water volume also works well in keeping water quality high even if you do not change as much water out.