Experts-Frags-Names

[cr reef]

New to posting here but been lurking for years.

I want to vent (please join in), I hope this is okay for a first post.

First, 25+ yrs FW/SW 6+ yrs Reef (I am not an Expert)

Okay, my reason for the vent is the amazing change I've witnessed over the years and me finally joining a local forum to help new people.

It amazes me how someone with 6 months to a year experience but has 1K posts or more is an Expert in this field. I can't count the times I see people listen to these people but ignore the ones with actual experience in the hobby or field. (This sounds like a personal whine, but really isn't)

I've watched many experienced reefers leave the local forums for this reason, which is sad as many get into the local forums to help new people.

The other vent is;

Why are people with less than a year feeling the need to Frag (yes I read the whole thread created by organism, I think that is what made me decide to vent)
I give away a large amount of coral to locals every year, it gets too large and I would rather give it away to help someone than make a profit.

I had a gentleman come by and pick up some coral from me and I was floored by some of his comments.

His tank was less than a year old and had crashed once, but he said he was going to try to frag an anenome (what?!?!), and that he was already starting to frag zoas, and cut up a plate coral.

I almost lost my cool, but everyone has a right to their own way of doing things. (yes, I still gave him the 100+ head zoa rock and leather, it was already bagged by the time I heard this) I hear a number of people with this attitude and it drives me nuts. ( I know their greedy but still.........)

The other is these people that can name everything and have to have the fancy name it just drives the prices up. which for me is neither here nor there as I'm lucky and don't have to worry about price, if I like something I buy it, it may be frustrating but wont hurt the back account. But stops others from getting a nice piece do to price.

I know this probably comes accross as whining, but it's really not about me but about the growing trend and me witnessing the real experts leaving forums do to people not listening to them or getting beat up by people with less expereince.

I would love to see the old days when people just helped everyone, and took the time for their tank to mature. I think there would be less tank crashes and more of these new people actually sticking around instead of getting frustrated and leaving.

Sorry for the long post and my first being a venting one, do I feel better no, probably more frustrated as I can't express exactly what I mean typing.

This is for all of you who have vented this same thing to me and the others who have had the same experience.

Let's all go back to the days of enjoyment and love for these creature and the desire to bring others into this great hobby.


Disclaimer; this is not directed at anyone directly just a general statement.

[Matt Dean]

I feel much better giving away, or at the very least charging very little for frags. I bought frags from guys who were selling small frags for as much, if not more than the LFS are.

I can only guess that the high cost of this hobby drives people to try and cover costs through this practice.

But then again, I am only a couple of years in saltwater and only have 286 posts, so my opinion holds little water ( pun intended )

OH, that reminds me, someone is coming over to pick up frags of my 2 inch acro that I fragged into 4 pieces. LOL!

[cr reef]

You're probably correct on people wanting offset costs, still................

Thank for making me laugh.....

[Ritten]

The one thought I had on your post is that experience is a much difference thing today. I have been keeping reef tanks for over twenty years. I have not been keeping them with any success to be proud of until the internet and shared information in this forumn became available.

[cr reef]

I completely agree with that statement on these forums helping us all to do a better job in keeping better and more successful tanks, I have learned a lot from the experts on this and other forums.

To me it's more about the desire to cut things for profit before even learning how to successfully grow them and the others who claim the knowledge but really aren't giving correct or at least all the info needed.

It might be that whole instant gratification going on in both cases, one the person that wants to do what others are doing and getting a little money to boot and the others not necessarily not listening but going with whoever replies first and or most.

Not having the patience to wait to see if others chime.

Kind of like what I'm doing now

Maybe I'm off base, just amazed at some of the things I see,

[MUCHO REEF]

Originally Posted by cr reef

New to posting here but been lurking for years.

I want to vent (please join in), I hope this is okay for a first post.

Welcome to RC

First, 25+ yrs FW/SW 6+ yrs Reef (I am not an Expert)

Okay, my reason for the vent is the amazing change I've witnessed over the years and me finally joining a local forum to help new people.

It amazes me how someone with 6 months to a year experience but has 1K posts or more is an Expert in this field. I can't count the times I see people listen to these people but ignore the ones with actual experience in the hobby or field. (This sounds like a personal whine, but really isn't)

No it's not a whine, it's how you feel based upon what you witnessed first hand. I do hear what you're saying, but remember, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". I've seen this as well as it bothers me as I don't want to see the fish, coral etc perish if the wrong info is given, received and implemented. Whose to say it is wrong, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. In those times, I have just sent a private PM with my own suggestion and hope they listen.


I've watched many experienced reefers leave the local forums for this reason, which is sad as many get into the local forums to help new people.

I agree and have seen this as well.


The other vent is;

Why are people with less than a year feeling the need to Frag (yes I read the whole thread created by organism, I think that is what made me decide to vent) I give away a large amount of coral to locals every year, it gets too large and I would rather give it away to help someone than make a profit.

I hear you brother

I had a gentleman come by and pick up some coral from me and I was floored by some of his comments.

His tank was less than a year old and had crashed once, but he said he was going to try to frag an anenome (what?!?!), and that he was already starting to frag zoas, and cut up a plate coral.

I almost lost my cool, but everyone has a right to their own way of doing things. (yes, I still gave him the 100+ head zoa rock and leather, it was already bagged by the time I heard this) I hear a number of people with this attitude and it drives me nuts. ( I know their greedy but still.........)

The other is these people that can name everything and have to have the fancy name it just drives the prices up. which for me is neither here nor there as I'm lucky and don't have to worry about price, if I like something I buy it, it may be frustrating but wont hurt the back account. But stops others from getting a nice piece do to price.

Organism's thread deals with this subject in great detail, but what can you do?

I know this probably comes accross as whining, but it's really not about me but about the growing trend and me witnessing the real experts leaving forums do to people not listening to them or getting beat up by people with less expereince.

You're not whining my friend, I'd call it compassion.


I would love to see the old days when people just helped everyone, and took the time for their tank to mature. I think there would be less tank crashes and more of these new people actually sticking around instead of getting frustrated and leaving.

All we can do is to continue to help those who want help, and give freely to those who feel as we do.


Sorry for the long post and my first being a venting one, do I feel better no, probably more frustrated as I can't express exactly what I mean typing.

This is for all of you who have vented this same thing to me and the others who have had the same experience.

Let's all go back to the days of enjoyment and love for these creature and the desire to bring others into this great hobby.

Amen brother, again, welcome to RC, it's a great place.


Disclaimer; this is not directed at anyone directly just a general statement.

And you're not off base by any means. It's a discussion forum and you are allowed to express your opinions freely.


Mucho

[cr reef]

Thank you for the kind words and understanding, it's people like yourself and others here that made me decide to look at some more local forums.

I agree on the PM side as I do with with many members as most times it's not worth an argument in practices, unfortunately it leaves others out of the discussion. Also, because there are many ways to get to the same fix in aproblem and many out there aren't willing to try something unless given by those that spout knowledge from the tree tops

Again Thanks for the welcome, I've been following yours and others on here for years, on that note my corals thank you and others on here too

[Salamander]

Man its like you read my mind! I agree whole heartedly with your rant...well lets just call it your clear observations.

Unfortunately those who need to understand won't bother to read this thread. And if they do they'll think its about all those other people.

There are a few people I'd love to forward this to and ask if it reminds them of anyone.

[cr reef]

Exactly Salamander, but then we would really be outcasts and put on the no contact list, hence why I did my rant here as oppossed to my local.

Oh well all we can do is try to help and vent to those who have open minds and an understanding of whats changing.

[justchilllin]

Well i joined reef central for opinions advice and to share my hobby with people who share the same interest. I am a christian and it relates to the hobby for me personally. I look at all the magnificent fish coral inverts chemistry and how in nature there is no protien skimmers or kalk, calc. reactors and they grow and it is just amazing that i can have a piece of that in my living room to share with others that do not see as much as we do or experience chemical inbalances in our tanks. I think this is a great hobby and a great place to get advice see peoples tanks from around the world.

But i think that you are right on the money i started with a 15gal tank, then a 29, now a 100g soon i hope i will get a 180 or a big bowfront. but my point is that i dont have all the answers or the most experienced but i seek advice not people to talk down on the ones with less experience.

[cr reef]

I think this is a great hobby and a great place to get advice see peoples tanks from around the world.

But i think that you are right on the money i started with a 15gal tank, then a 29, now a 100g soon i hope i will get a 180 or a big bowfront. but my point is that i dont have all the answers or the most experienced but i seek advice not people to talk down on the ones with less experience.

This was no way intended to talk down to you or anyone new to the hobby that wants to learn care for their corals or have a great tank.

This was simply a vent about losing the experts in the industry due to some new people who think they know more..........

Those with very little experience willing to just cut up corals for a profit.........

Putting ridiculous names on corals for price..........

I am not one of the experts I'm mentioning, I don't know half of what many of the people I was referring to know.

I completely agree this is a great place to learn, discuss and to show what's going on with our tanks and everyone elses.

[greech]

Tough to tell what the actual rant is about but this is what I took from your post...

1. You don't feel that people with a year or so worth of experience (or 1,000+ posts) have the ability to provide sound advice to newbies and/or concern over truely experienced folks leaving the forums because of (IMO) a few "know-it-alls" blasting them because of differing opinions; and

2. Frustration with named corals and fragging just to make a buck.

As for #1, I guess I'm in that range so I find this a bit disheartening to read. I by no means feel that I have enough experience to instruct others on every aspect of the hobby. However, I do feel that I can contribute to the conversations regarding my experiences so far with equipment, livestock and water chemistry. I most certainly appreciate the long-time hobbiests willingness to help us newcomers out and if I have ever questioned anyone, it has been for clarification purposes. I may be wrong but it almost sounds as if you feel that only the elders have the right to provide advice in this forum which to me is counterproductive.

I to wish that more people would pay attention to the truely experienced advice offered. However, more often than not people just want to find anyone that agrees with their wants and desires (e.g., the ever present argument over "Why can't I have a Sohal Tang in my 55 gallon?!).

2. I agree with your frustration but the names themselves do help me realize what I am looking at while considering purchase of a coral. Just the other day I came across a picture of a coral that struck me. It was Pearlberry aquacultured by ORA. I wanted this coral both for looks and the fact that it was aquacultured. I contacted my LFS and they told me that many of the ORA corals are in-town and that they could arrange a frag for me through a local hobbiest. 2 weeks later and I have the exact coral I wanted and for what I felt was a very reasonable cost ($35).

I apologize if I misinterpeted what you meant by your post. Good conversation...

[cr reef]

1. You don't feel that people with a year or so worth of experience (or 1,000+ posts) have the ability to provide sound advice to newbies and/or concern over truely experienced folks leaving the forums because of (IMO) a few "know-it-alls" blasting them because of differing opinions.

Contributing to the conversation is completely good, there are always other opinion/options

But it's the know it alls (as you put it) that can't realize there are other opinions/options and want to argue with the true experts (not me) or very experienced and don't have an open mind to realize there are other options

2. Frustration with named corals and fragging just to make a buck

The names are fine unless it becomes a LE

Fragging it fine, I do it myself, it's the ones that can't keep their tank stable but want to frag, or the ones who buy a small colony just to frag

However, more often than not people just want to find anyone that agrees with their wants and desires (e.g., the ever present argument over "Why can't I have a Sohal Tang in my 55 gallon?!).

Exactly, part of the reason for the rant

As for #1, I guess I'm in that range so I find this a bit disheartening to read. I by no means feel that I have enough experience to instruct others on every aspect of the hobby. However, I do feel that I can contribute to the conversations reagarding my experiences so far with equipment, livestock and water chemistry.

1st- This was not intended to be at anyone on this site
2nd - I've read your posts and you aren't what I would call an opininated know it all and conversation is a great tool for all, kind of like what is going on here

I contacted my LFS and they told me that many of the ORA corals are in-town and that they could arrange a frag for me through a local hobbiest

Perfect, this is how it should be

If this has disheartened you or anyone that has an open mind and just wants to help I'll apologies now.

Thanks for putting in your thoughts, I don't come accross real well at times and the fact that you read my post different than I did, just shows that odds are others out there are also, so the feed back is very much appreciated

[MUCHO REEF]

Originally Posted by cr reef

Thank you for the kind words and understanding, it's people like yourself and others here that made me decide to look at some more local forums.

I agree on the PM side as I do with with many members as most times it's not worth an argument in practices, unfortunately it leaves others out of the discussion. Also, because there are many ways to get to the same fix in aproblem and many out there aren't willing to try something unless given by those that spout knowledge from the tree tops

Again Thanks for the welcome, I've been following yours and others on here for years, on that note my corals thank you and others on here too

Thanks for the kind words.

[ludnix]

Well the amount of time spent in the hobby says very little for the person's knowledge. I've seen customers break down their saltwater tank of 6+ years which was a 10 gallon tank with a yellow tang, 2 clowns (of different species) and a few damsels.

I frequently frag large corals that I purchase and share the frags with my friends. It provides a safe way to ensure that the coral will survive even if something drastic happens in my tank.

Bubble tip anemones are easily fragged and can be done on a regular basis every few weeks. As long as the person is using proper techniques and safe clean tools it shouldn't be something to be concerned about.

[cr reef]

My first read I started to take offense, but I wont I'll just re-itterate a little of what I meant

Well the amount of time spent in the hobby says very little for the person's knowledge. I've seen customers break down their saltwater tank of 6+ years which was a 10 gallon tank with a yellow tang, 2 clowns (of different species) and a few damsels.

I agree time doesn't always mean knowledge and I've seen the same thing in regards to people with years having to break down a fish only tank or not being able to keep corals alive and just replacing them, and not caring.

If (the part I kind of took offense too) you are referring to me and my 6+ years in reefing. I don't count the first couple of years, as I couldn't keep things as well as some here with only a year, that was just on the current reef tank.

Also, this wasn't necessarily about me more about the "true experts" being blasted and FWIW I was reading a post from 12-15-10 where this exact subject was being discussed with MODS and other long time members (I'm not linking it since it was locked and I don't know the rules here in regards to that) you can look and see their views are the same, probably said better than mine

I frequently frag large corals that I purchase and share the frags with my friends. It provides a safe way to ensure that the coral will survive even if something drastic happens in my tank.

This is great, I was saying small corals, 5-10 polyps down to one, just to sell, 2-3" sps down to 3-4 frags, basically fragging just to frag or profit.

Sharing is what this should be about, or helping others

Bubble tip anemones are easily fragged and can be done on a regular basis every few weeks. As long as the person is using proper techniques and safe clean tools it shouldn't be something to be concerned about.

In this, I never have and never will, one- lack of knowlegde but mostly not MY cup of tea. More power to those that can or want to. But my example was of someone with a tank less than a year old, had already crashed once losing everything and now wanting to split an anenome. I don't think this makes sense as he obviously couldn't even keep one alive

[edsreef]

I can relate to much of what you said and have been wanting to vent a little myself.

Over the years when I've had to move, I've given away a few entire, fully matured, fully stocked, 90gal reef tank contents, including fish, corals, live rock, live sand, to local reefers. I never kept tabs on who got what and never cared; just put the word out locally and they swarmed in like buzzards.

I've recently set up my current tank and now it's mature enough to begin stocking with corals. Unfortunately some money woes set in about the same time. I went to my local reef forum and asked if anyone had had some frags. The only responses I got were from sellers, and reefers who took no sympathy - cash only. I understand, they personally don't owe me anything but I thought someone would eventually be willing to help me out a tad; no such luck.

This experience has really left me feeling sickened and bitter. I was looking forward to making friends with some people and sharing frags with them and others in the future. Now, my financial situation is just beginning to turn around and I'll soon be able to buy whatever I want. At this point though I've had enough with people and I'm NOT EVER planning on giving ANYTHING away again in the future! All I've ever done was given things away and never recieved a single thing from anyone that I didn't have to pay for.

I may/may not change my mind about this; I'm usually pretty easy-going but right now I'm still too sick.

[Amoore311]

But it's the know it alls (as you put it) that can't realize there are other opinions/options and want to argue with the true experts (not me) or very experienced and don't have an open mind to realize there are other options

I think the "know it all" mentality is the real problem. This goes for those with 10+ years or 5 months of experience.

I've been in the hobby myself around 5 years. I ALWAYS butted heads around my 2nd year with an "expert" who had been in the hobby 10+ years. This was all on my local forums.

The guy was definitely experienced. But in his 10+ years he kept softies and leathers, he wasn't exactly a coral guru.


Where we would butt heads is anything he considered "new" was automatically junk, b/c his dated equipment kept his softy tank alive.... he just went on recommending that to everyone. Some of the other things we always butted heads on:


-Him recommending a horribly inefficient Reef Devil Skimmer repeatedly to people with large tanks. But it worked on his softy filled 55 gallon, so it will work for everyone -_-

-Him recommending people waste money on B-Ionic 2 Part, because it is much "safer" than Randy's DIY Method. -_-

-Him Recommending PC Lights only (regardless of coral type or tank height), no need to waste money on those new fangled Halides or T5's. PC's kept his Kenya Trees and Toadstools alive for that long.... so why bother? -_-

-Him telling me Carbon Dosing was a "fad" and would never work on a tank long term. Yet here I am 3 years later with a 180 Gallon stuff with sps/lps/softies, some of the LPS has been with me over 4 years. His tank is now broken down.



.... Wow that was overly long. My point is, the know it all mentality is the problem. Not people with lesser years of experience acting like they know more than someone else, because sometimes they do.

Diversity is everything to this hobby. There isn't many things, if anything at all, that can only be done 1 way.

[cr reef]

Edsreef,

I understand the one way street but don't give up, there are many good people out there, unfotunately we tend to run into the other more often.

Amoore311,

Exactly, you said it better, a lot of it has to do with the "know it all" mentality.

If everyone could just keep an open mind, and realize that there is more than one way to do something.

I think you find it more in the local level do to the big fish small pond syndrome.

[edsreef]

Originally Posted by cr reef

Edsreef,

I understand the one way street but don't give up, there are many good people out there, unfotunately we tend to run into the other more often.

I've been in the hobby over 20yrs. How long you reckon I should wait? The only thing I see is, as you and others have pointed out, more and more greed and selfishness.

[cr reef]

Okay,I was trying to be supportive (sp) I actually am on your side, I honestly feel whats the point, I sent a new person a 100 bucks just cause they wanted something, they didn't get it.

I want to beleive people are good, I was trying to go with your new club and to give them a chance. But...........

Pm me I'm one that will do what I can

We aren't all selfish and greedy, but damn it, it's really trending that that way more and more, and hard to on.

probably get in trouble (politics) I am conservative just sound liberal

[cr reef]

my spelling sucks, I always say don't reef drunk, hell don't post drunk

Obviously not drunk or you would really hear what I think, no one wants that

[widmer]

In regard to the naming issue:

Come on, people have been naming and classifying things since Darwin . It's part of what makes us people. And it's fun, especially when it comes to corals because we are giving them fun names.

But yes, calling a coral a "limited edition" makes me want to barf. And no matter what a coral is named, I'll never spend more than $20 or so on one...

Originally Posted by edsreef

I can relate to much of what you said and have been wanting to vent a little myself.

Over the years when I've had to move, I've given away a few entire, fully matured, fully stocked, 90gal reef tank contents, including fish, corals, live rock, live sand, to local reefers. I never kept tabs on who got what and never cared; just put the word out locally and they swarmed in like buzzards.

I've recently set up my current tank and now it's mature enough to begin stocking with corals. Unfortunately some money woes set in about the same time. I went to my local reef forum and asked if anyone had had some frags. The only responses I got were from sellers, and reefers who took no sympathy - cash only. I understand, they personally don't owe me anything but I thought someone would eventually be willing to help me out a tad; no such luck.

This experience has really left me feeling sickened and bitter. I was looking forward to making friends with some people and sharing frags with them and others in the future. Now, my financial situation is just beginning to turn around and I'll soon be able to buy whatever I want. At this point though I've had enough with people and I'm NOT EVER planning on giving ANYTHING away again in the future! All I've ever done was given things away and never recieved a single thing from anyone that I didn't have to pay for.

I may/may not change my mind about this; I'm usually pretty easy-going but right now I'm still too sick.

Don't lose faith. What you've alluded to is true, each one of those times you gave something away truly was an isolated incident. I'm sure that if any of these people who you gave stuff to saw your post when you were looking for frags, they would have been more than happy to return the favor. Meanwhile I'm sure that at least some of those people have gone ahead and helped a different reefer out similarly because of the way you helped them out. I know that a few years ago when I bought a chiller on craigslist and the guy randomly gave me bags full of SPS as well, that had an effect on me. When it was time to take down my tank I was more than happy to pass them on for free to another reefer getting off the ground...

Happy reefing

[scottsdale454ss]

i once saw someone say they were going to try to frag their fish.

[MUCHO REEF]

Originally Posted by scottsdale454ss

i once saw someone say they were going to try to frag their fish.

I need to send you a check for making me laugh harder than I have in years,


THAT WAS FUNNY