Cost for MH to run? is this right?

marius880 · 02/12/2011, 02:02 PM

i went to a local store, and they had a paper saying how much it cost to run a mh fixture. They were comparing it with the new LED called ECORAY.

250 w mh- .24 cents per hour--- 1.92$/8 hr/day. - 57$/month. --691$/yr

does this sound right? i have 2 of these lights so it will cost me close to 1400$ a year??? without bulbs? that is a lot.

i almost feel like buying led... those 120 led ecoray willl cost me 1300$ for 2 and last 10 years..

anyone else out there that did the math? is it really that much money? or the LFS trying to lie so we can see the LED a lot better.

Midnightsun · 02/12/2011, 02:11 PM

Bogus!!! A 250 watt bulb burns 250 watts. x 24 hrs in a day = 6000 watts per day or 6 kilowatts if you prefer. Multiply that by your kilo watt hr rate, let's say $0.12 cents and you get. 72 cents per day. Now that is running 24 hours!! Dive that by 3 to get 8 hours and the real figure is $0.24/8 hrs, not per hour as you mentioned. Regardless, led will save you about 60% in electric bills and then there is no bulb changing for a very long time. Then there is the no heat factor and no chiller to run with the led. They will take over eventually but are still a little pricey.

marius880 · 02/12/2011, 02:48 PM

if that calc is right. then im not changing for now... i can do 0.24$ for a whole day...

Acrotrdco · 02/12/2011, 02:56 PM

Midnightsun is right.

Right now, using 70-80lm/w LED bulbs (like the current Cree XP-G), 110w of LED is enough to produce the same amount of luminous output as a 250w MH, so you're saving about 54%.

However, Cree had already released their 140lm/w bulbs meaning they're already available to the market, which means you only need about 55w of power from these newer bulbs to generate the same luminous output as a 250w MH, saving you some 78% power.

In another 6-9 months, Cree will release their newest 200lm/w bulbs, meaning you'll only need just 36w of power from those bulbs, and the saving will be increased to 85%.

So basically in less than 2 years time, you'll be running only about 30w of LED replacing each of the 250w MH you're running now.

marius880 · 02/12/2011, 03:20 PM

wow so i guess i will wait 1 year... perhaps the prices will also drop by alot...
but now that i know that my lights dont cost more than 15$ a month im ok with that as well.

torino06 · 02/12/2011, 04:00 PM

i came across this this morning...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1839506

jdieck · 02/12/2011, 04:58 PM

Note that a 250 watt ballast may draw from 285W for electronics and 300W for magnetic as the 250W is the watts to the lamp and the efficiency of the ballast, power factor and heat losses have to be considered.

In any case if you want to calculate how many months you need to payback your LED system you can use the following:

Lc / [0.0305WNPR(E-0.3)+Mc/12] = Pay back in Months

Where:
Lc = Cost of the LED system in USD
W = Wattage of the ballasts being used in nominal watts per ballast
N = Number of ballasts being replaced
P = Photoperiod in hours per day
R = Average power rate in USD per kwh
Mc = The annual cost of replacing the MH bulb(s)
E = Efficeincy factor (1.12 for electronic ballasts; 1.2 for magnetic ballasts)
Note: The 0.3 assumes that you will need 75 watts of LEDs for each 250 watts of MH to replace (Based on Aquaillumination modules)

Example:
You want to replace a system with two 250 watt metal halides using electronic ballasts (Usually 48" long tank) using two LED Aquaillumination modules of 75 watt each with a cost of $630.00 per module and your photoperiod is 10 hours per day and you replace your MH bulbs every year at a cost of $60.00 per bulb and your average power rate is 0.150 $/kwh (You live in California!)
The math will look like this:

(2 x 630) / [0.0305 x 250 x 2 x 10 x 0.150 x (1.12-0.3) + (60 x 2) / 12] = Pay Back
1260 / [22.875 x 0.82 + 10] = Pay Back
1260 / 28.758 = Pay Back = 43.8 months ~ 3 years and 8 months.

Now if you live in Arkansas were your power rate will be in the order of 0.09 $/kwh your payback will be 73 months (~6 years!) but if you live in Hawaii were your power rate is around 0.290 $/kwh then your pay back will be 23 months or one month short of two years.

Now a question for those tax accountants. Will switching to LED qualify for the tax deduction for investment in energy efficiency???

marius880 · 02/12/2011, 07:16 PM

nice math.... impressing. at my local store the guy was explaining to like 5 others how within 1 year you get all your money back. 2 guys ended up buying the led fixture and i didnt. but from what he was talking about how much it cost to run mh. it made me think. now i feel so much better. one of the guys on CMAS a forum here emailed me approx $ amunt to run my system for now.

Costs per month:
MAG36 = $27.93
(2) 250w MH = $12.93
100w heater @8 hours = $2.59
300w heater @8 hours = $7.76
Koralia 4 = $0.93

not bad... it looks like i can upgrade to a bigger tank.

02/12/2011, 02:02 PM	#1
marius880 Moved On Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: lincolnwood il Posts: 525	Cost for MH to run? is this right? i went to a local store, and they had a paper saying how much it cost to run a mh fixture. They were comparing it with the new LED called ECORAY. 250 w mh- .24 cents per hour--- 1.92$/8 hr/day. - 57$/month. --691$/yr does this sound right? i have 2 of these lights so it will cost me close to 1400$ a year??? without bulbs? that is a lot. i almost feel like buying led... those 120 led ecoray willl cost me 1300$ for 2 and last 10 years.. anyone else out there that did the math? is it really that much money? or the LFS trying to lie so we can see the LED a lot better.

02/12/2011, 02:11 PM	#2
Midnightsun Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 311	Bogus!!! A 250 watt bulb burns 250 watts. x 24 hrs in a day = 6000 watts per day or 6 kilowatts if you prefer. Multiply that by your kilo watt hr rate, let's say $0.12 cents and you get. 72 cents per day. Now that is running 24 hours!! Dive that by 3 to get 8 hours and the real figure is $0.24/8 hrs, not per hour as you mentioned. Regardless, led will save you about 60% in electric bills and then there is no bulb changing for a very long time. Then there is the no heat factor and no chiller to run with the led. They will take over eventually but are still a little pricey. Last edited by Midnightsun; 02/12/2011 at 02:17 PM.

02/12/2011, 04:58 PM	#7
jdieck Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maumee, OH Posts: 15,673	Note that a 250 watt ballast may draw from 285W for electronics and 300W for magnetic as the 250W is the watts to the lamp and the efficiency of the ballast, power factor and heat losses have to be considered. In any case if you want to calculate how many months you need to payback your LED system you can use the following: Lc / [0.0305WNPR(E-0.3)+Mc/12] = Pay back in Months Where: Lc = Cost of the LED system in USD W = Wattage of the ballasts being used in nominal watts per ballast N = Number of ballasts being replaced P = Photoperiod in hours per day R = Average power rate in USD per kwh Mc = The annual cost of replacing the MH bulb(s) E = Efficeincy factor (1.12 for electronic ballasts; 1.2 for magnetic ballasts) Note: The 0.3 assumes that you will need 75 watts of LEDs for each 250 watts of MH to replace (Based on Aquaillumination modules) Example: You want to replace a system with two 250 watt metal halides using electronic ballasts (Usually 48" long tank) using two LED Aquaillumination modules of 75 watt each with a cost of $630.00 per module and your photoperiod is 10 hours per day and you replace your MH bulbs every year at a cost of $60.00 per bulb and your average power rate is 0.150 $/kwh (You live in California!) The math will look like this: (2 x 630) / [0.0305 x 250 x 2 x 10 x 0.150 x (1.12-0.3) + (60 x 2) / 12] = Pay Back 1260 / [22.875 x 0.82 + 10] = Pay Back 1260 / 28.758 = Pay Back = 43.8 months ~ 3 years and 8 months. Now if you live in Arkansas were your power rate will be in the order of 0.09 $/kwh your payback will be 73 months (~6 years!) but if you live in Hawaii were your power rate is around 0.290 $/kwh then your pay back will be 23 months or one month short of two years. Now a question for those tax accountants. Will switching to LED qualify for the tax deduction for investment in energy efficiency??? __________________ Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium

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02/12/2011, 02:48 PM	#3
marius880 Moved On Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: lincolnwood il Posts: 525	if that calc is right. then im not changing for now... i can do 0.24$ for a whole day...

02/12/2011, 02:56 PM	#4
Acrotrdco Moved On Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 708	Midnightsun is right. Right now, using 70-80lm/w LED bulbs (like the current Cree XP-G), 110w of LED is enough to produce the same amount of luminous output as a 250w MH, so you're saving about 54%. However, Cree had already released their 140lm/w bulbs meaning they're already available to the market, which means you only need about 55w of power from these newer bulbs to generate the same luminous output as a 250w MH, saving you some 78% power. In another 6-9 months, Cree will release their newest 200lm/w bulbs, meaning you'll only need just 36w of power from those bulbs, and the saving will be increased to 85%. So basically in less than 2 years time, you'll be running only about 30w of LED replacing each of the 250w MH you're running now.

02/12/2011, 03:20 PM	#5
marius880 Moved On Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: lincolnwood il Posts: 525	wow so i guess i will wait 1 year... perhaps the prices will also drop by alot... but now that i know that my lights dont cost more than 15$ a month im ok with that as well.

02/12/2011, 04:00 PM	#6
torino06 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 262	i came across this this morning... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1839506

02/12/2011, 07:16 PM	#8
marius880 Moved On Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: lincolnwood il Posts: 525	nice math.... impressing. at my local store the guy was explaining to like 5 others how within 1 year you get all your money back. 2 guys ended up buying the led fixture and i didnt. but from what he was talking about how much it cost to run mh. it made me think. now i feel so much better. one of the guys on CMAS a forum here emailed me approx $ amunt to run my system for now. Costs per month: MAG36 = $27.93 (2) 250w MH = $12.93 100w heater @8 hours = $2.59 300w heater @8 hours = $7.76 Koralia 4 = $0.93 not bad... it looks like i can upgrade to a bigger tank.