Green bubble tip anemone ate my percula clown!

[danvito]

Hi guys,

I have a well established 250L tank with a few small tangs, clowns, damsels, urchin, brittle star, cleaner shrimps and a green bubble tip anemone. They have all gotten along with no issues for the last 3 months or so, which is when I last introduced new stock - the clowns and the anemone. At first the two clowns were equal size. It took them a few days to find the anemone, but ever since then they have housed themselves in it and one had become the obviously dominant female, doubled in size and had the run of the anemone. The other has not grown much at all and was always on the outer of the anemone, often bullied out by the dominant one.

The anemone has been well fed recently in particular. He gets a few chunks of defrosted prawn almost every day, and a squirt of oyster extract or mysis shrimps a couple of days a week. The clowns have been known to rip the prawn chunks out of the anemone on occasion, so I usually keep them busy by feeding elsewhere in the tank while the anemone gets it well inside its mouth.

This morning I woke up to find the anemone fully retracted and I only saw the small clown hanging around. It happens on occasion so I didn't think much of it. A few hours later I noticed the anemone was fully open again and the large clown was still missing. I searched high and low and was convinced the brittle star was responsible (he has also grown significantly recently, hangs around under the closest rock to the anemone, and often tries to steal food from it).

It took a few hours to get a good look in the mouth of the anemone - at which point I almost fell over backwards when I saw my clown fully swallowed. Over the next few hours the carcass was slowly spat out and I found him covered in mucus and partially digested on the gravel in front of the anemone.

I am intrigued to know if this is 'common'? I thought the symbiosis between the clown and the anemone was a rock solid bond. Is it likely that the clown died before being swallowed by the anemone, or is the anemone being aggressive in its hunt for food, or was it a case of mistaken identity and the clown was actually just in the wrong place at the wrong time?

[IMG]http://i51.*******.com/dny3ph.jpg[/IMG]

Cheers
Dan Vito

[Crazy fish eye]

I had a clown dig inside of the mouth of a green bta before. The clown killed the bta not the other way around. That's pretty crazy.

[PSU REEFER]

Wow. Sorry for your loss. Haven't heard of this before.

[1fishkeeper]

Im willing to put my money on the clown was sick or dead when it ate it.

[ColaAddict]

I have heard that anemones will eat the clown hosting in them if they get hungry enough, as the job of the clown is to feed the anemone, so if it's not fed enough it will eat any fish. However, you said that you anemone is well fed, so it is odd that you clown was eaten, unless maybe it died while in the tentacles and got pushed into the anemone mouth.

[jimmy_beaner]

Originally Posted by ColaAddict

I have heard that anemones will eat the clown hosting in them if they get hungry enough, as the job of the clown is to feed the anemone, so if it's not fed enough it will eat any fish. However, you said that you anemone is well fed, so it is odd that you clown was eaten, unless maybe it died while in the tentacles and got pushed into the anemone mouth.

I don't buy this line of logic. If the clown adjusts its slime coat to mimic the anemone itself, why would the anemone suddenly recognize the clown and sting it? Wouldn't it be just as likely to sting itself? (since the clown's slime coat is a mimic of the anemone)

[Toddrtrex]

Originally Posted by ColaAddict

I have heard that anemones will eat the clown hosting in them if they get hungry enough, as the job of the clown is to feed the anemone, so if it's not fed enough it will eat any fish. However, you said that you anemone is well fed, so it is odd that you clown was eaten, unless maybe it died while in the tentacles and got pushed into the anemone mouth.

What?!

It is not the job of a clown to feed the anemone. There is a mutual protection relationship between them, but not a feeding one.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by jimmy_beaner

I don't buy this line of logic. If the clown adjusts its slime coat to mimic the anemone itself, why would the anemone suddenly recognize the clown and sting it? Wouldn't it be just as likely to sting itself? (since the clown's slime coat is a mimic of the anemone)

I agree. The clown, once acclimated, would be invisible to the anemone.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Toddrtrex

What?!

It is not the job of a clown to feed the anemone. There is a mutual protection relationship between them, but not a feeding one.

True. Clowns sometimes accidentally drop food into the anemone but there is no intent. Clowns will, on occasion, drive fish into the anemone but that is a different issue completely.

[mr.iacuessa]

i had this happen before as well, except the anemone didnt spit the sick maroon out...

[this is me]

Not saying that it can't happen but I think that it's more likely the clown was sick and lost its slime coat and was too weak to fight the anemone sting.

[Anemone]

BTAs also aren't known piscivores, so one more vote for "the clown died first and the anemone swallowed the body."

Kevin

[nemoboy1]

It's a mystery... Sorry to hear. Rare incident for sure.

[danvito]

Thanks for the feedback. Certainly there were no obvious signs of illness in the clown in the leadup to this, but that's not to say it wasn't.

Very odd indeed.

[deadmeat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toddrtrex View Post
What?!

It is not the job of a clown to feed the anemone. There is a mutual protection relationship between them, but not a feeding one.
True. Clowns sometimes accidentally drop food into the anemone but there is no intent. Clowns will, on occasion, drive fish into the anemone but that is a different issue completely.

Interesting reply sorry I did not catch this before, I would have spoken sooner. No it may not be a duty of the clown to feed its nem, but are you seriously thinking it would not be in a clowns best interest? Have you never seen a clown feed a nem? Maybe all my hosts over the last 13 years were just plain luck? I have never seen a clown not care for its nem by not feeding it. I have had extreme (clowns grabbing feeder fish as they drop into tank by tail fin and dragging into nem) to mild (clowns grabbing frozen food cube as it falls into tank and dragging to nem) but the end result is that my clowns have always fed their nems. On occasion when food for the nem is more plentiful, the clown may steal some but they are both equally cared for in the relationship. Maybe I have been lucky, but lack of observation does not make one an authority on how the clown behaves or what a hosted relationship is like.

Tom

[BluespotLady]

Strange indeed. I have even had picasso babies as young as 7 weeks host in anemones without issue.

[bues0022]

Originally Posted by deadmeat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toddrtrex View Post
What?!

It is not the job of a clown to feed the anemone. There is a mutual protection relationship between them, but not a feeding one.
True. Clowns sometimes accidentally drop food into the anemone but there is no intent. Clowns will, on occasion, drive fish into the anemone but that is a different issue completely.

Interesting reply sorry I did not catch this before, I would have spoken sooner. No it may not be a duty of the clown to feed its nem, but are you seriously thinking it would not be in a clowns best interest? Have you never seen a clown feed a nem? Maybe all my hosts over the last 13 years were just plain luck? I have never seen a clown not care for its nem by not feeding it. I have had extreme (clowns grabbing feeder fish as they drop into tank by tail fin and dragging into nem) to mild (clowns grabbing frozen food cube as it falls into tank and dragging to nem) but the end result is that my clowns have always fed their nems. On occasion when food for the nem is more plentiful, the clown may steal some but they are both equally cared for in the relationship. Maybe I have been lucky, but lack of observation does not make one an authority on how the clown behaves or what a hosted relationship is like.

Tom

While I can see where your logic is coming from, you are only considering the interaction between clowns and their host anemones as it relates to our systems and animals in captivity. In the wild, where you will find host anemone/clownfish relationships, food does not come in form of feeder fish or frozen chunks of food. What does a clownfish eat in the wild? What does an anemone eat in the wild? In both cases, the size of food bits are considerably smaller than your frozen chunk. There is not a bolus dose of food at once, but a constant flow day in/day out. Host anemones generally live in nutrient poor waters, and will rarely get a large meal such as a fish or shrimp. Instead, they rely on the constant supply of tiny planktonic foods or larval foods. Same goes for the diet of clownfish. If you feed your tank some newly hatched brine shrimp, you will not see your clownfish do "mother-bird" style of spitting out food just for the anemone.

The behavior of grabbing a large chunk of food and "feeding" the anemone is not what it may seem. Too often we place human emotions and thoughts on our inhabitants. Instead, isn't it more logical for a fish to see a large mass of food, grab it, and go someplace it deems safe to eat it? Instead of trying to eat it all in the open where it or the food may become prey for another fish. If you don't have an anemone, your clownfish will take it to their other "host" or rock cave to injest the food in peace.

No, clownfish do not knowingly "feed" their host anemones.
A BTA will not eat their clownfish, or nearly any other fish for that matter, without it being either extremely sick/dead to start.

[Toddrtrex]

Originally Posted by deadmeat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toddrtrex View Post
What?!

It is not the job of a clown to feed the anemone. There is a mutual protection relationship between them, but not a feeding one.
True. Clowns sometimes accidentally drop food into the anemone but there is no intent. Clowns will, on occasion, drive fish into the anemone but that is a different issue completely.

Interesting reply sorry I did not catch this before, I would have spoken sooner. No it may not be a duty of the clown to feed its nem, but are you seriously thinking it would not be in a clowns best interest? Have you never seen a clown feed a nem? Maybe all my hosts over the last 13 years were just plain luck? I have never seen a clown not care for its nem by not feeding it. I have had extreme (clowns grabbing feeder fish as they drop into tank by tail fin and dragging into nem) to mild (clowns grabbing frozen food cube as it falls into tank and dragging to nem) but the end result is that my clowns have always fed their nems. On occasion when food for the nem is more plentiful, the clown may steal some but they are both equally cared for in the relationship. Maybe I have been lucky, but lack of observation does not make one an authority on how the clown behaves or what a hosted relationship is like.

Tom

I stand by what I said 4 months ago, and find it odd that you would comment on a 4 month old thread.
Also find odd that you are still using feeder fish.
Been keeping clowns/anemones for the last 15+ years, and only had one clown that would actively bring food to their anemone.
No, an observation does not make one an authority, but studying that relationship for the past 20 years come close.

[Reefnut2010]

Yeah Tom This is 4 months old man! How dare you comment on it !!! LMAO ! All I know is my Maroon goes out of his way to feed his nem. No matter how little or how much food he gets. The nem always gets his share. Most of the time before the clown himself !!

[jlnielsen13]

At the risk of getting in trouble for posting on an old thread, ( which by the way is where I get a lot of my information that has made me a better aquarist) I think this is a really interesting argument.

I have been an avid reef keeper for 15+years of which the majority of them I have had a host anemone and clownfish pair (maroons or percula). I am also a biology teacher and have an additional tank in my classroom with one clown and a nem.

During ecology we learn about the different relationships between organisms in their environment and more specifically the symbiotic relationships that exist between organisms. There are two specific symbiotic relationships we cover in class:

Commensalism: One organism benefits and the other is not affected positively or negatively (lichens on a tree)

Mutualism: Both organisms benefit from the relationship "mutually". ( tick eating birds on the back of a zebra- the bird gets a meal and the zebra gets "de-ticked".

What is interesting is the text I use says the relationship between clownfish and anemone is an example of commensalism and even the test that was given to the students had this question with commensalism as the answer.

I teach to the students that science is tentative and through observations information that was once a fact can be changed if new data is available. I then feed the tank at work and tell the students to observe the clown and anemone's behavior. Every time my clown feeds the anemone and directly places the food in his mouth. I ask the students is this commensalism or mutualism. Even though the book suggests one, if we observe the other multiple times which is the correct answer?

My clowns at home ALL do the same thing so I feel this is more of a mutualistic symbiosis. Either way, there is nothing better than watching this relationship in the home aquarium regardless of what we call it!!
Thanks
JIM

[syrinx]

I agree it may be a captivity based response-But in my experience- maroon clowns often feed the anemone- almost always it is the male that does so. I have not seen this behavior out of other clowns- at least that I remember. Its funny how BTAs are the least likely to eat fish- and their host is the most likely to feed the anemone..............

[elegance coral]

My clowns do not feed my anemones. I've been doing this for about 25 years and the only time I can remember seeing this is when the clown was fed something that was to large for it to eat. I don't feed my clowns inappropriately sized food, so I don't see this behavior. I do see clowns steal food, or attempt to steal food from anemones though. Even if the food is to large for them to eat. In which case they often just swim off a distance with the food, and spit it out.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...lckuvq_WnfjY_Q

A quote from the link above.
"Indeed, aquarists have added much to knowledge of this symbiosis. Many have seen fish bring food to their anemones. This behaviour seems confined to aquaria. The normal diet of clownfishes is small plants and animals that live in the water above the anemone, or algae that grow around it (chapter 4). In nature, they do not encounter large particles of food, so they eat their food where it is found. Feeding large morsels to a fish in an aquarium produces an artifact: the fish, unable to devour the piece immediately, takes it home to work on it in the relative security of its own territory, as is typical of predators that obtain food in large amounts. But the territory in this case consumes the food!"

[syrinx]

I dont disagree with the idea it is confined to aquaria- but I feed the maroons flake only- there is no artifact- just a determination of the male. Perhaps he is trying to hide food for himself for later- I doubt it is a nurturing situation- but it is common to see. And not due to oversize food. And to be honest in the ocean it is catch as catch can- a clown eats what he can catch- big or small.

[Reefing Newbie]

I have had a male ocellaris clown that assosiated with a smaller LTA, but he only did so at night with the lights out. The reason behind that I don't know(at the time the tank had a 12" handdoni and 2x 1/2" bleached BTAs, from when I purchased the setup). The clown never brought food to the nem or any where else other than where the food was. My three clowns today don't bring food anywhere either. They eat out of the water column(2 baby B&W ocellaris in one tank, female perc awaiting ick treatment and sale). The percula doesn't even have a "safe" place, which may be because she is the only clown. The three stripe that is with her has claimed the rockwork in the tank(will be removed) as his and attacks me if I go near it. I will say that clowns do no feed their nems. They simply bring it to them because it is their home and they feel safe to eat in or near the nem.

[Anemone]

Originally Posted by bues0022

Too often we place human emotions and thoughts on our inhabitants. Instead, isn't it more logical for a fish to see a large mass of food, grab it, and go someplace it deems safe to eat it? Instead of trying to eat it all in the open where it or the food may become prey for another fish. If you don't have an anemone, your clownfish will take it to their other "host" or rock cave to injest the food in peace.

This.

Other fish in the damsel complex also grab chunks of food in the aquarium environment and take them back to their crevice or cave to consume. It's just in these other cases of damsel food movement, the crevice or cave doesn't consume the food when the damsel's back is turned.

Kevin