Dosing Need for Softie Tank?

[deneed4spd]

Do you need to dose alk, calc, mag daily for a softie tank with mostly shrooms, zoas, duncan, hammer, frogspawn? Its a 75g and I do 25% water change monthly with RC salt.

[artman18944]

thats a tough question to answer....generally i would say weekly water changes are the best way to keep ur numbers where they should b using a good quality reef salt...now you listed some LPS and they will consume calcium along with any coralline you have growing to....i have a mostly softie tank with a few LPS and my cal ang mag stay preety stable with water changes but my tank quickly consumes alkalinity so i find myself having to dose alk in between WC's

[OceanNut]

Do you need to? No. With your given list of corals your current routine will work. Although 10% changes weekly will help keep things stable.

As an aside alkalinity is a measurement in reef aquariums and not something that is a consumed.

[dzhuo]

Originally Posted by OceanNut

As an aside alkalinity is a measurement in reef aquariums and not something that is a consumed.

I have no idea why you would say that.

[OceanNut]

Originally Posted by dzhuo

I have no idea why you would say that.

Science said so not me.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/alkalinity.htm

It's the buffering of carbonate or bicarbonate. Add in the stoichiometric sum of the bases, trace elements, free ions and

Hobby reefs are closed systems. Mileage will vary.

[dzhuo]

You do understand your interpretation of this article is very wrong right?

[OceanNut]

Is it an article?

And is it my interpretation?

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/2/chemistry

Year of gen chem year of organic chem year of advanced +++..............

But it did suck. So if my interpretation of the article is wrong please explain how alkalinity is consumed?

[scherzo]

I dose my tank every second day and I have a similar makeup. But it depends on your tank. I really only test for calcium in my tank.

Having said this I bought some frags off a guy today who had a 7 year old 50 gallon tank with no sump or skimmer and never dosed. His tank was amazing with amazing growth.

I think that is what is great about this hobby. Trying different things out.

Try it without dosing and check your levels for a few months. Then try dosing and check your levels again. Most importantly see how your corals are doing.

As another aside.... Alkalinity is a measurement.... Kinda like pH. Nitrates and phosphate levels can be checked but things can consume them... pH and alk can't be consumed... Although I did not read that article... My Wife who is a molecular biologist went into a 10 minute explanation.

[OceanNut]

Originally Posted by scherzo

I dose my tank every second day and I have a similar makeup. But it depends on your tank. I really only test for calcium in my tank.

Having said this I bought some frags off a guy today who had a 7 year old 50 gallon tank with no sump or skimmer and never dosed. His tank was amazing with amazing growth.

I think that is what is great about this hobby. Trying different things out.

Try it without dosing and check your levels for a few months. Then try dosing and check your levels again. Most importantly see how your corals are doing.

As another aside.... Alkalinity is a measurement.... Kinda like pH. Nitrates and phosphate levels can be checked but things can consume them... pH and alk can't be consumed... Although I did not read that article... My Wife who is a molecular biologist went into a 10 minute explanation.

Only 10 minutes....you have an angel there. Education aside. I'll wait for how alk can be consumed.

[dzhuo]

Originally Posted by OceanNut

So if my interpretation of the article is wrong please explain how alkalinity is consumed?

Sure. The article you cited earlier (the one written by Anthony Calfo), state explicitly:

Alkalinity depletion is caused sometimes by the misapplication of calcium supplements and/or a lack of water changes. It occurs naturally, as stated, from the neutralization of acids and removal of carbonates for calcification primarily.

In your later article which you quoted (written by Randy):

Corals and other organisms deposit calcium carbonate in their skeletons and other body parts. In order to do this they must generate calcium and carbonate at the surface of the growing calcium carbonate crystal. While it is far beyond the scope of this paper to describe this process, it is readily apparent that if corals deposit these chemicals, they are using them up from the water that they inhabit.

Need more? It's clear to me that you either didn't read the article or you have wrong interpretation of what the articles are presenting. Any calcification that happen in our tank requires alk. Alk can be quickly consumed to build skeletons ranging from corals, shrimp, crabs, algae etc. Without additional supplement, alk can quickly drop in a closed system. What you stated above is a simplified view of a definition of alk which I have no idea how you drew the conclusion that:

As an aside alkalinity is a measurement in reef aquariums and not something that is a consumed.

which is nothing but a wrong statement. Worse yet, you seem very argumentative when someone point out your mistake.

[dzhuo]

Originally Posted by scherzo

As another aside.... Alkalinity is a measurement.... Kinda like pH. Nitrates and phosphate levels can be checked but things can consume them... pH and alk can't be consumed... Although I did not read that article... My Wife who is a molecular biologist went into a 10 minute explanation.

I hope you are joking. If not, your wife either has no idea what alk is or you didn't ask her correctly or you didn't interpret her answer correctly. Either way, alk can and will be consumed (sometimes rapidly by calcification).

[OceanNut]

Originally Posted by dzhuo

You do understand your interpretation of this article is very wrong right?

I'll just roll with the science. No interpretation required. Post any rebuttal.

[dzhuo]

Originally Posted by OceanNut

I'll just roll with the science. No interpretation required. Post any rebuttal.

If you are new to the hobby (I am only making an assumption base on your lack of understanding of what alk is) and learning the chemistry behind it. It would be better to be open minded and acknowledge that there are things to be learned as oppose to continue to abuse the term science. If you truly want to learn and willing to help people to a greater degree, loose the attitude. Randy, the author who wrote one of the article you cited, is over in the Chemistry forum so you can head over and ask him directly how alk is consumed. I will give you another hint: Companies would not sell alk supplement if it's not being consumed.

The articles (both are excellent) tell you exactly how alk is consumed and why alk must be supplemented from time to time.

[OceanNut]

Originally Posted by dzhuo

Sure. The article you cited earlier (the one written by Anthony Calfo), state explicitly:



In your later article which you quoted (written by Randy):



Need more? It's clear to me that you either didn't read the article or you have wrong interpretation of what the articles are presenting. Any calcification that happen in our tank requires alk. Alk can be quickly consumed to build skeletons ranging from corals, shrimp, crabs, algae etc. Without additional supplement, alk can quickly drop in a closed system. What you stated above is a simplified view of a definition of alk which I have no idea how you drew the conclusion that:



which is nothing but a wrong statement. Worse yet, you seem very argumentative when someone point out your mistake.

Well, calcification may require alk. But what is alk? Do you dose alk?
I know my game and my science...tell me alk can be consumed.

[dzhuo]

I use Randy's 2-part to supplement alk. I hope you realize this is the same author who wrote one of the article you cited earlier. This 2-part addictive is widely used among the SPS circle (again thanks to Randy). Another popular alk supplement is a calcium reactor (Anthony Calfo mentioned this in his article which you also cited) because calcification consumes a balanced unit of alk / cal / mag (potentially other minor trace elements) so when you subject coral skeleton (popular calcium reactor media) to low pH, the skeleton will dissolve which in turn release the same balanced unit of alk / cal / mag back to the water column. For a smaller tank, 2-part is normally the way to go but as alk / cal consumption become greater (as in a larger tank or dense coral grow), a calcium reactor is normally employed.

What do u dose?

I use 2 BRS dosing pumps to add alk and cal. It's a daily routine and adds the same amount of alk / cal base on consumption. It keeps both parameters very stable.

I am happy to continue to discussion but it's getting late here. I sincerely hope you take the time to read the 2 articles you cited (I know it's long but really worth the read); it's great resources.

Here are 2 more articles about Randy's 2-part. If you plan to keep SPS, you will need it eventually as alk can be consumed quickly (an alk swing can be deadly to sensitive SPS):

Aquarium Chemistry: A Homemade Two-Part Calcium And Alkalinity Additive System
An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System

Again Randy would not have take the time to write these articles if he doesn't think alk is consumed and must be supplemented from time to time.

[OceanNut]

Originally Posted by dzhuo

If you are new to the hobby (I am only making an assumption base on your lack of understanding of what alk is) and learning the chemistry behind it. It would be better to be open minded and acknowledge that there are things to be learned as oppose to continue to abuse the term science. If you truly want to learn and willing to help people to a greater degree, loose the attitude. Randy, the author who wrote one of the article you cited, is over in the Chemistry forum so you can head over and ask him directly how alk is consumed. I will give you another hint: Companies would not sell alk supplement if it's not being consumed.

The articles (both are excellent) tell you exactly how alk is consumed and why alk must be supplemented from time to time.

Here you go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkalinity

Tell a chemist what alk is and how it is consumed/measured. Really .......................

[dzhuo]

What exactly is your point? To prove you are more wrong? What you state is a definition of alk; it says nothing alk isn't being consumed. If I show you an article of definition of calcium, would you happen to think calcium is not consumed as well?

[OceanNut]

Originally Posted by dzhuo

I use Randy's 2-part to supplement alk. I hope you realize this is the same author who wrote one of the article you cited earlier. This 2-part addictive is widely used among the SPS circle (again thanks to Randy). Another popular alk supplement is a calcium reactor (Anthony Calfo mentioned this in his article which you also cited) because calcification consumes a balanced unit of alk / cal / mag (potentially other minor trace elements) so when you subject coral skeleton (popular calcium reactor media) to low pH, the skeleton will dissolve which in turn release the same balanced unit of alk / cal / mag back to the water column. For a smaller tank, 2-part is normally the way to go but as alk / cal consumption become greater (as in a larger tank or dense coral grow), a calcium reactor is normally employed.





I use 2 BRS dosing pumps to add alk and cal. It's a daily routine and adds the same amount of alk / cal base on consumption. It keeps both parameters very stable.

I am happy to continue to discussion but it's getting late here. I sincerely hope you take the time to read the 2 articles you cited (I know it's long but really worth the read); it's great resources.

Here are 2 more articles about Randy's 2-part. If you plan to keep SPS, you will need it eventually as alk can be consumed quickly (an alk swing can be deadly to sensitive SPS):

Aquarium Chemistry: A Homemade Two-Part Calcium And Alkalinity Additive System
An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System

Again Randy would not have take the time to write these articles if he doesn't think alk is consumed and must be supplemented from time to time.

You way smarter than me. Alkalinity is not a measurement. It's in the water and can be consumed. It is late and I an stupid with my 6 years of chem. you win....yo go go

[jinks]

The alk is not being consumed it's a measurement. It's like saying i have cup of water that's 90Degrees. If i dose it with 2 ice cubes it lowers the temp to 50Degrees. You did not consume 40Degrees you changed something that caused the reading to lower. Alkalinity is not a physical thing it's a measurement. You dose other things to bring it up.

[OregonReefer]

dzhuo... Alk is a measurement

Yes you can put things in the water to raise or lower it

Yes those things that effect Alk can be consumed (affecting your Alk reading) but you can't consume Alk.

It's like saying an inch is consumable...

Edit: LOL, jinks beat me to it

[scherzo]

Ok,

My apologies to the OP. Have we answered your question yet? Maybe you won't want to dose after reading this mini debate.

My wife is asleep and my compsci degree does not help me here. But.. I dose.. ALK And from what I remember what my wife told me many moons ago.. Is that I'm not actually dosing ALK... I'm contributing to it...

Basically (once again.. Using my memory) nitrates, ammonia, phosphates and other things contribute to the level of ALK. So when ALK goes down.. Something else is being taken from the water column...

Kinda like pH... If we add CO2 to the water column the water's pH is being altered.

I guess it is just a terminology thing... If we say that ALK is being used up, it is actually something else in the water that is being consumed that will cause the ALK level to fall.

So... To the OP. You have to make sure that you check your levels whenever you add something to your aquarium. You could start with just water changes and see how your calcium and ALk are affected over a number of days. Just keep everything logged so your brain doesn't spin when you can't remember when you did your water change and what your last set of parameters were.

[OceanNut]

Originally Posted by scherzo

Ok,

My apologies to the OP. Have we answered your question yet? Maybe you won't want to dose after reading this mini debate.

My wife is asleep and my compsci degree does not help me here. But.. I dose.. ALK And from what I remember what my wife told me many moons ago.. Is that I'm not actually dosing ALK... I'm contributing to it...

Basically (once again.. Using my memory) nitrates, ammonia, phosphates and other things contribute to the level of ALK. So when ALK goes down.. Something else is being taken from the water column...

Kinda like pH... If we add CO2 to the water column the water's pH is being altered.

I guess it is just a terminology thing... If we say that ALK is being used up, it is actually something else in the water that is being consumed that will cause the ALK level to fall.

So... To the OP. You have to make sure that you check your levels whenever you add something to your aquarium. You could start with just water changes and see how your calcium and ALk are affected over a number of days. Just keep everything logged so your brain doesn't spin when you can't remember when you did your water change and what your last set of parameters were.

that is it! pH and C02?

And Alk is consumed....Not just a science measure........

stupid chemist....................

[scherzo]

Originally Posted by OceanNut

that is it! pH and C02?

And Alk is consumed....Not just a science measure........

stupid chemist....................

I thought I was agreeing with you? Must be late.. And I am confused...

[OceanNut]

Originally Posted by scherzo

I thought I was agreeing with you? Must be late.. And I am confused...

We cool. as is your lady.

[AaronM]

Hey oceannut, you've been an annoying distraction in this thread.

Back to the point, the optimal levels for our tanks are out there, written on the wall. For your tank, i don't think you need to dose alk, calc, mag daily. Water changes will help heaps, but eventually will be outrun by your tanks needs....so...

I reckon check those levels once a month, maybe when you do a bigger clean, and based on the test results, dose.