Are Metal Halides history?

[pmrossetti]

Is it just a matter of time before they're the VHO of lighting?

just wondering. what do you think?

as leds get better and better.

maybe t5s are going too?

[djk83]

I have halides and leds. I am a fan of both I dont think halides are going anywhere soon.

[nvdiz]

i wouldnt say so yet.

but LEDs are catching up quick

[username in use]

I don't think it will be LED's that do away with halides, I think it will be Plasma lights.

[jayg4u]

I have both, 250mh and Cree Royal Blue LEDs for my actinic lighting. I used to run t-5s for my actinics. And after 2 months of leds, I can total tell a difference in the colors of my corals. I think for me a combination of both is the way for me.

[sneeyatch]

Metal halides are tried and true. I think it will be some time before they go away.

[rtparty]

This same conversation was being had many years ago but we were talking about VHO and PC's going away because of T5 lighting and MH getting better.

Guess what? Both are still around and haven't disappeared. Metal Halides will be around for the next 10 years unless some government act bans them. Too many people still love the halide look and success that they have.

LEDs are still years away from really being king IMO.

[Runfrumu]

I like the look of halides better than fluorescent tubes, and the fact that I can have 3 bulbs as opposed to 12 or so fluorescent to get the same growth is appealling to me.

LED's are ok, but until the fixture's come down in price to match MH, they won't be replacing them anytime soon either.

As for me, as long as I can run MH, I will.

[rtparty]

Originally Posted by Runfrumu

I like the look of halides better than fluorescent tubes, and the fact that I can have 3 bulbs as opposed to 12 or so fluorescent to get the same growth is appealling to me.

LED's are ok, but until the fixture's come down in price to match MH, they won't be replacing them anytime soon either.

As for me, as long as I can run MH, I will.

What kind of tank are you running that it would take 12 T5 bulbs to equal 3 MH? Is it the six foot 125g in your sig?

You only need 6 of the 60" tubes and you would be able to keep anything you wanted.

Just FYI.

[110galreef]

VHO still the best actinic sups! They have yet to go anywhere. Plus great for Fish Only & freshwater setups. Also excellent sizes & costs, 2', 3', 4' 5' 6' etc......

Now LED's are sweet and will be a great thing when the cost comes down.

I think PC, given the output, cost, sizes and quality of light should be gone! :-)

[Chris27]

They surely won't be history on my tanks for a good long while!

I figure it to be comparable to the gas engine vs. hybrid vs. electric motor. When they make it cost effective to trade my Chevy small block in for an electric motor, I may consider it...until then I will pump the gas in at $4/Gallon and continue to smoke on by those electric things loaded to the gills with D-Cell batteries.

[110galreef]

BTW, with my basement setup, the heat from my MH's is actually a bonus! Oh and the shimmer...who would have guessed??

[RuffsReef]

I don't understand why people think it cost so much more to go LED than MH, it is a little more but well worth it. Here is the price comparison in our tank:

MH:
3 Lumenmax Fixtures: $500
Ballast: $390
Bulbs: $300
Total: $1,190
Montly electricity cost: $49.64 (just lights)

LED:
AI Fixtures: $1,500
Monthly electricity cost: $13.96

So my ROI on an LED system is less than 1 year since I would have to buy new bulbs for the MH system in a year.

[whis169]

I asked the folks at wetwebmedia that question a while back when I saw a write up in the wall street journal on what the government was doing. They said they would not go away for a long time because so many companys use MH in warehouses, retail, etc. Don't see them going away in my lifetime.

[James77]

Originally Posted by RuffsReef

I don't understand why people think it cost so much more to go LED than MH, it is a little more but well worth it. Here is the price comparison in our tank:

MH:
3 Lumenmax Fixtures: $500
Ballast: $390
Bulbs: $300
Total: $1,190
Montly electricity cost: $49.64 (just lights)

LED:
AI Fixtures: $1,500
Monthly electricity cost: $13.96

So my ROI on an LED system is less than 1 year since I would have to buy new bulbs for the MH system in a year.

Not everyone has the same electric rates as you. My halide monthly bill is about 1/4 yours. The 3- halide setup you list would easily cover a 6 foot x 2 foot plus tank, and you are really giving the minimum AI fixtures needed. 6 AI Sols would be the more common setup on a tank the same size that would be coever by 3 Lumenmax reflectors to get even, full coverage, which would double the cost of the AI fixtures.

Also, unless you are buying giesemann halide bulbs, the majority of the common bulbs- XM, Phoenix, radium, etc- are in the 50-70 dollar range.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by rtparty

This same conversation was being had many years ago but we were talking about VHO and PC's going away because of T5 lighting and MH getting better.

Guess what? Both are still around and haven't disappeared. Metal Halides will be around for the next 10 years unless some government act bans them. Too many people still love the halide look and success that they have.

LEDs are still years away from really being king IMO.

Things are not always what the appear to be...

The lighting that is available to our hobby is largely dependent on what INDUSTRY is willing to adopt. Due to the almost non-existent "reef hobby" market and high cost to customize products, we borrow and sometimes adapt technology.

VHO was largely a result of borrowing bulbs from the tanning bed industry. Their problem is not their efficiency (as all fluorescent tubes are in the same ballpark) but their PHYSICAL DIAMETER making them poor candidates for compact and efficient reflectors. T8 and PC started to gain acceptance for high-bay retrofits and therefore briefly found their way into our hobby. T6 bulbs were never adopted by industry and therefore never became widely available to our hobby. PC bulbs came in too many sizes and configurations to be "common" retrofits for high-bay and were to expensive for "new" design and they are not at all conducive to efficient reflector design, so they have somewhat stalled out in industry. T5 bulbs have the same basic output as a T6, T8, T12 or PC, but they have the advantage of allowing very narrow and highly efficient reflectors to be used. Industry will not be moving away from T5 anytime soon, and therefore neither will the "hobby".

T5 and MH technology is still by far the most common choice for industrial and horticultural lighting and therefore will not be going anywhere soon.

LEDs will become affordable to our hobby when industry decides that LED street lamps and high-bays are better than MH or HPS units and general use LED troffers are more beneficial than T5 troffers. They will not decide this until they can see a VERY CLEAR cost/benefit ratio or govt forces them to switch.

Notice how many T12 fixtures are still EVERYWHERE you look. The cost to retrofit or replace is prohibitive and in most cases only NEW construction is fitted with T5 (often by code mandate). The "cycle" started many years ago and will take many more years to complete. We really have not even begun cycling out MH and T5 with LED, so it is going to be a long ride (unless of course govt dictates differently by law).

As important as we (as a hobby) think we are, NOBODY (that matters) is paying attention to what we want or use

[110galreef]

Originally Posted by RuffsReef

I don't understand why people think it cost so much more to go LED than MH, it is a little more but well worth it. Here is the price comparison in our tank:

MH:
3 Lumenmax Fixtures: $500
Ballast: $390
Bulbs: $300 plus avg bulb now adays is like $60-$70
Total: $1,190
Montly electricity cost: $49.64 (just lights)

LED:
AI Fixtures: $1,500
Monthly electricity cost: $13.96

So my ROI on an LED system is less than 1 year since I would have to buy new bulbs for the MH system in a year.

For a tank needing 3 MH's, you will probably need 4-5 AI units for the spread.

My tank footprint 60 x 36.
MH:
3 Lumenmax Lumenbite/Lumen Arc (pick one) Fixtures: $500
Ballast: $390
Bulbs: $300 plus avg bulb now adays is like $60-$70
Total: $1,190
Montly electricity cost: $12.60 3 250w MH's 8hrs a day 30days a mo at .07c kwH

LED:
Min 4 units to cover probably more 5-6, as 4 will have a hard time covering that width.
thats closer to $2500
electricity ~ $1.85

Granted the electricity is more, but the heat from the MH's reduces the usage of my heater. I know not normal but works for me & my basement setup. And actually 2 250w MH's work perfect on my tank, w/ 2 5' VHO for dusck to dawn & accctinic supp. This is still about a $1000 build and $12/mo electrcity




Look at a 72 x24" tank.
MH:
3 Lumenmax Lumenbite/Lumen Arc (pick one) Fixtures: $500
Ballast: $390
Bulbs: $300
Total: $1,190
Montly electricity cost: $12.60 3 250w MH's 8hrs a day 30days a mo at .07c kwH

LED:
Min 5 units to cover

thats closer to $3000
electricity ~ $2.30/mo

Thats a lot of bulbs and electricity to cover that extra $1800 upfront.

DIY builds are the best way to get exactly what you want and still cost alot. Prices are getting closer, just not there yet

[James77]

I've used all the common lighting...T5s, LEDs and halides. The halides are not going anywhere anytime soon, the same things were said about MH being obsolete when T5s were all the rage a few years ago. I think all the types will remain useful and liked in our hobby, none of them will be "obsoloete" though the pros and cons of each will suit people differently. For me, saving $7 or $8 on electric and $100 a year in bulb replacement seems useless in a hobby where the livestock alone is worth well into the thousands.

Heat is not an enemy to everyone. What is the point of getting super-cool LEDs just to have your heater run all that more often? I am trying to get the perfect balance in my tank where I need neither chillers nor heaters.

[RuffsReef]

Wow, you guys have cheap electricity! I live in Southern California though, they bend us over on electricity rates.

Also if you live in a colder climate MH may work better for you as well, since it stays over 70* year around here my heater doesn't kick on very much.

[110galreef]

Originally Posted by RuffsReef

Wow, you guys have cheap electricity! I live in Southern California though, they bend us over on electricity rates.

Also if you live in a colder climate MH may work better for you as well, since it stays over 70* year around here my heater doesn't kick on very much.

Yeah I know....luckily electricity is cheap. I have my whole setup (250g DT and 40G frag tank, mostly effecient (aside from lights MH's on both tanks) costing me ~$45/mo

[BonsaiNut]

Originally Posted by pmrossetti

Is it just a matter of time before they're the VHO of lighting?

just wondering. what do you think?

as leds get better and better.

maybe t5s are going too?

Yes they will go.

Look at what has happened in the last few years. I'm not sure people understand that incandescent bulbs (100w, 75w, 60w) are now banned in the EU. Their target is to ban all halogen bulbs by 2016. T8 and T12 fluorescents are being phased out in the US and you can no longer buy fixtures (at least of the older low efficiency models).

Right now LEDs are slightly more efficient than T5 and MH for general lighting. They are about to become MUCH MORE so. The best T5 achieves about 80-100 lumens per watt. The best MH does slightly better at about 90-100 lumens per watt. There are now production LEDs achieving 160 lumens per watt of white light, and they are getting brighter (and cheaper) all the time. The current hypothetical limit for white LED efficiency is about 290 lumens per watt given current technology and only marginal improvements in miniaturization and production scale. However just like CPU's on computers, there are likely many improvements in LED technology that have yet to be discovered.

Plus, LED's are getting cheaper and cheaper. I fully expect there to be a time when, even if not banned, MH will die because they are so expensive relative to LED's. Who will buy a $500 MH lighting setup when a comparable LED fixture costs $200?

Think about LCD hi-def TV's with LED backlighting. A unit that sold for $12,000 5 years ago sells for $2,000 today. Plus the screens are brighter, higher resolution, higher contrast, faster refreshing, and better in just about every way.

[WingoLED]

Originally Posted by beananimal

things are not always what the appear to be...

The lighting that is available to our hobby is largely dependent on what industry is willing to adopt. Due to the almost non-existent "reef hobby" market and high cost to customize products, we borrow and sometimes adapt technology.

Vho was largely a result of borrowing bulbs from the tanning bed industry. Their problem is not their efficiency (as all fluorescent tubes are in the same ballpark) but their physical diameter making them poor candidates for compact and efficient reflectors. T8 and pc started to gain acceptance for high-bay retrofits and therefore briefly found their way into our hobby. T6 bulbs were never adopted by industry and therefore never became widely available to our hobby. Pc bulbs came in too many sizes and configurations to be "common" retrofits for high-bay and were to expensive for "new" design and they are not at all conducive to efficient reflector design, so they have somewhat stalled out in industry. T5 bulbs have the same basic output as a t6, t8, t12 or pc, but they have the advantage of allowing very narrow and highly efficient reflectors to be used. Industry will not be moving away from t5 anytime soon, and therefore neither will the "hobby".

T5 and mh technology is still by far the most common choice for industrial and horticultural lighting and therefore will not be going anywhere soon.

Leds will become affordable to our hobby when industry decides that led street lamps and high-bays are better than mh or hps units and general use led troffers are more beneficial than t5 troffers. They will not decide this until they can see a very clear cost/benefit ratio or govt forces them to switch.

Notice how many t12 fixtures are still everywhere you look. The cost to retrofit or replace is prohibitive and in most cases only new construction is fitted with t5 (often by code mandate). The "cycle" started many years ago and will take many more years to complete. We really have not even begun cycling out mh and t5 with led, so it is going to be a long ride (unless of course govt dictates differently by law).

As important as we (as a hobby) think we are, nobody (that matters) is paying attention to what we want or use

+1

[DeathWish302]

Originally Posted by James77

I've used all the common lighting...T5s, LEDs and halides. The halides are not going anywhere anytime soon, the same things were said about MH being obsolete when T5s were all the rage a few years ago. I think all the types will remain useful and liked in our hobby, none of them will be "obsoloete" though the pros and cons of each will suit people differently. For me, saving $7 or $8 on electric and $100 a year in bulb replacement seems useless in a hobby where the livestock alone is worth well into the thousands.

Heat is not an enemy to everyone. What is the point of getting super-cool LEDs just to have your heater run all that more often? I am trying to get the perfect balance in my tank where I need neither chillers nor heaters.

Bingo! Unfortunately after dabbling in the LED DIY rage a couple years ago, I realized to obtain the same lighting effect as Radium I would need double the LED's I had placed on my Aquapod. To light a ~1.25 sq.ft. area is ridiculously expensive at $305 for 24 LED's, 4 Buckpucks or a Meanwell, power supply(s) if using pucks & the heatsink. For the 3-5 years I could get out of the fixture, I'm not seing where I would not been better off with using a 70W or 175W MH setup. Even spending the $350 in bulb replacement is only a marginal difference over the course of 5 years. Plain and simple, MY led setup CANNOT grow SPS as well as my 400W Radium. Electricity and bulb replacement costs are mute in my system.

I spend more in gas and wear and tear driving to the various LFS's I frequent on a weekly/bi-weekly basis! A few bucks extra on the electric bill each month and a $73 bulb order every 8 months sure beats having to resolder those darn LED arrays back together in 5 years. For the labor I have in one nano build, I could sign the check for the electric bill and screw in a replacement bulb for the rest of my life. Some added bonuses do not always tell the true costs....

Just some food for thought.

[BonsaiNut]

Originally Posted by DeathWish302

Bingo! Unfortunately after dabbling in the LED DIY rage a couple years ago,

That line tells me all I need to know. Prices on LED's are falling 50% every 3 years. At the same time they are getting brighter and more efficient. Early adoption of ANY technology is expensive. However LED's are very different from traditional lighting and different rules apply. It is easier to think of LED's as CPU computer chips in terms of constant improvement, than it is to think of them as "light bulbs".

Check out some LED industry magazines or articles at the Department of Energy. The "death" of incandescent, halogen, fluorescent, halide, and compact fluorescent lighting is there to see. All of these lighting technologies will become obsolete in the order that I have listed them.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by BonsaiNut

Yes they will go.

Look at what has happened in the last few years. I'm not sure people understand that incandescent bulbs (100w, 75w, 60w) are now banned in the EU. Their target is to ban all halogen bulbs by 2016. T8 and T12 fluorescents are being phased out in the US and you can no longer buy fixtures (at least of the older low efficiency models).

Right now LEDs are slightly more efficient than T5 and MH for general lighting. They are about to become MUCH MORE so. The best T5 achieves about 80-100 lumens per watt. The best MH does slightly better at about 90-100 lumens per watt. There are now production LEDs achieving 160 lumens per watt of white light, and they are getting brighter (and cheaper) all the time. The current hypothetical limit for white LED efficiency is about 290 lumens per watt given current technology and only marginal improvements in miniaturization and production scale. However just like CPU's on computers, there are likely many improvements in LED technology that have yet to be discovered.

Plus, LED's are getting cheaper and cheaper. I fully expect there to be a time when, even if not banned, MH will die because they are so expensive relative to LED's. Who will buy a $500 MH lighting setup when a comparable LED fixture costs $200?

Think about LCD hi-def TV's with LED backlighting. A unit that sold for $12,000 5 years ago sells for $2,000 today.

Again, what most of you are missing is the lifecycle is it relates to INDUSTRY. This has NOTHING to do with TV technology or computer chips for the simple fact that the COST/BENFIT ratio, product LIFESPAN and INSTALLATION COSTS are in an entirely different arena).

• TODAY there are virtually ZERO LED high-bay or troffer fixtures being installed, but MILLIONS of HPS, MH, T5 and even T8 fixtures ARE being installed in NEW construction.
• TODAY there are virtually ZERO LED high-bay or troffer fixtures being installed, but MILLIONS of HPS, MH, T5 and even T8 fixtures ARE being installed as RETROFITS.

The cost is far too high and will remain high for quite some time. BANNING a given technology (in this case everything BUT LED) does not produce downward pressure on price of replacements (LEDs) for MANY years. Industry WILL NOT spend the extra money to install LED fixtures until they are forced to, or the COST to BENEFIT ratio becomes favorable. This process is going to take quite a bit of time for INDUSTRY to adopt.

Lastly (and the sad reality here) is that FORCING adoption of product and BANNING the alternative products drives the price of BOTH products higher. The banned product becomes rare and expensive and the replacement product is able to track at a higher price, as there are no alternatives.