Help with my cycle that ended so quick?

sweeper7 · 09/07/2011, 12:58 PM

Okay guys this is where I currently stand, help is needed.

I started a 20L with RO/DI water, 30lbs of LS, and 9lbs of LR.
I added the LR 48 hrs after LS and SW was in the tank.

5 days later, filter running etc I took a water sample to petco for tests and it came out perfect, 0 across the board. I went to another LFS and same results.

They told me to add a damsel because it should be safe but just incase if a cycle occurs they are strong and can do fine.

So then I put in 2 damsel in the tank and about 6 days ago I went back to petco and my ammonia was very slightly up and was told you should see it spike then drop so it turns into nitrite/nitrate within a week to 2 weeks which indicates your cycle. I went in today, which is about 5 days after and my ammonia was sitting in between .5 and 1, 0 nitrate, 0 nitrite. the guy said a partial water change is needed to see if we can get rid of the ammonia that way. I asked if its a cycle starting since its about 2.5 weeks old he said it should have started by now but since you took LR from an established tank with fish and shrimps and starfish etc in it it could be that it already caused the cycle to end very quickly if a small one occurred. So now I am stuck here not knowing what to do, whether to do the water change, add my clownfish from my other tank that is being transfered into here or not because I dont know if the water is safe or it hasn't even started a cycle or it has and its was a very small one.

schristi69 · 09/07/2011, 01:12 PM

You had no bioload until you put the fish in. Of course your readings were going to be zero. Do weekly water changes until your amonia comes down. I would not add any other fish until you resolve this. Do not overfeed. The smaller the tank, the faster things can go south. It will take time to get your tank in balance. Do you have a cleanup crew? If not, then all that extra food just sinks and rots. Get some snails and hermits. Buy your own test kits and test regularly.

sweeper7 · 09/07/2011, 01:17 PM

I dont have any food sitting around, my fish eats once every 3 days.

does this mean the cycle finished though?

sweeper7 · 09/07/2011, 01:20 PM

wierd thing is 1 of the damsels one morning a few days ago was jsut dead at the bottom of the water. that was with ammonia at barely anything above 0

Sugar Magnolia · 09/07/2011, 01:22 PM

And Petco makes another sale.

Your tank hadn't even begun to cycle yet. Cycling with damsels is cruel. Placing them in such a harsh environment where ammonia will be present just subjects them to the possibility of dying. In addition, they are extremely aggressive fish and will be a royal pain to catch when you have to get them out when they kill any other fish you plan to put in there.

IMO, remove the damsels and add some more LR - 9 pounds isn't nearly enough to provide an adequate biological filter. Shoot for 1-1 1/2 pounds per gallon, depending upon how porous it is. Either that or get some dry base rock. Your 9 pounds of LR will seed the base rock over time.

Lastly, buy some test kits and do your own testing. Keep a journal of all of your numbers so you can track your cycle.

Ron Reefman · 09/07/2011, 01:22 PM

In a 20g tank, 9lbs of LR isn't enough. I'd add 10-15lbs more. With that you shouldn't need to do a water change to remove ammonia. The bacteria will convert it, just give it time. If you had a mature tank with lots of delicate corals and you didn't know why the amonia was up, I'd suggest watch it a day and see what happens. If it goes up more, a water change may be needed. But you only have 2 damsels and that isn't too muck for 30lbs of rock. Be careful how much you feed them. Food that isn't eaten is just about like detritus and becomes ammonia fairly quickly.

Comment: Unless you know the LFS guy well and he knows your system (or asks a lot of questions) don't take his advise at face value. Some are really good and some are dumb as a box of rocks... and probably not live rocks at that.

And +1 to all that Adrienne said above. Buy ammonia and nitrate kits at the minimum, add pH and maybe a nitrite, even though 3 months from now you'll probably never use it again. But you need to test every other day minimum, every day would be better.

sweeper7 · 09/07/2011, 01:30 PM

its 30lbs of LS not LR, only 9 lbs of LR.

I have 5 lbs of LR in my other tank waiting to be transfered but my clown is in that tank and I don't want to remove that LR yet b/c i was told it can harm my other tank without it.

schristi69 · 09/07/2011, 01:34 PM

You probably starved your fish to death. Once every 3 days????

sweeper7 · 09/07/2011, 01:37 PM

i was told to feed the frozen shrimp to them once every 3 days.

Sean16420 · 09/07/2011, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schristi69

You probably starved your fish to death. Once every 3 days????

A fish can last 3 days without eating... ESPECIALLY a damsel...

Uncle Salty 05 · 09/07/2011, 01:48 PM

Your cycle in not completed until your nitrites read zero.
This usually takes 3-4 weeks.
Even after your cycle has completed it must cycle again every time you add to the bioload by adding a fish or other animal.
With each addition the bacterial colonies that cycle your tank need 2-3 weeks to catch up.
Get your own test kits and do regular water changes with RO/DI water.

What are you using for filtration and flow?

sporto0 · 09/07/2011, 01:51 PM

It is obvious what has happened here, your tank never began it's cycle, the best method now is what the others have suggested, add mature cured Live Rock & feeding every three days is absolutely fine, fish can live up to a month without food, your Damsel died from exposure to ammonia, not starvation.

sweeper7 · 09/07/2011, 01:52 PM

AquaClear 50.

I just ordered the API master test kit for pH, amm, nit, and nitrate.

sweeper7 · 09/07/2011, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sporto0

It is obvious what has happened here, your tank never began it's cycle, the best method now is what the others have suggested, add mature cured Live Rock & feeding every three days is absolutely fine, fish can live up to a month without food, your Damsel died from exposure to ammonia, not starvation.

how much longer until it is expected to reach the nitrate spike?

problem here is the tank that my clownfish is in needs to be ruturned by the 15th of this month.

sweeper7 · 09/07/2011, 01:56 PM

i do have some fish food stuck about 3 of them in the foam of the AC filter...should I remove those?

sporto0 · 09/07/2011, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweeper7

how much longer until it is expected to reach the nitrate spike?

problem here is the tank that my clownfish is in needs to be ruturned by the 15th of this month.

Have you added any matured, cured Live Rock? If not, it may take a month or more to completely cycle. This is kind of a rough way for you to start, I hope this will help you slow down & do some more research so that you can fully enjoy this hobby. Good luck to you.

sweeper7 · 09/07/2011, 02:01 PM

reason this mess occurred is b/c petco sold me freshwater crap for my SW fish and completely caused a headache. freshwater food, gravel, plants, aquarium set up etc.

I have 9 lbs of aquacultured Live Rock from an already established tank with lots of fish and inverts. was out of the water for maybe 20 min before it got into my tank .

xCry0x · 09/07/2011, 02:02 PM

The cycle length is hard to estimate because it depends on the quality of live rock/sand.. You need to monitor it and wait. Honestly assuming you used live sand/live rock and there is bacteria converting ammonia to nitrate/nitrite you can probably just keep doing larger 20% water changes every few days to help keep the levels lower until the bacteria fully develops.

The ideal situation is just to let it all develop but since you already bought fish and have them living in there just tough it out with frequent water changes until everything stabilizes.

sweeper7 · 09/07/2011, 02:06 PM

is it a good idea to do the water change today 25% of it?

sporto0 · 09/07/2011, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweeper7

reason this mess occurred is b/c petco sold me freshwater crap for my SW fish and completely caused a headache. freshwater food, gravel, plants, aquarium set up etc.

I have 9 lbs of aquacultured Live Rock from an already established tank with lots of fish and inverts. was out of the water for maybe 20 min before it got into my tank .

While I understand your frustration, however if you were a little more informed & prepared, you would not have purchased items that have little use for saltwater tanks. Petco is a pain in the butt, I agree, but is also the hobbyists responsibility to know what he or she is getting into, having said that, 9lbs of rock is not quite enough Live rock to sustain your bacteria colony right now, I believe Ron suggested another 10-15 lbs of cured rock, this will help knock out your nitrite & ammonia spike, I agree with that assessment, again, good luck to you, I don't want you to get turned off by this experience.

blt · 09/07/2011, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

In a 20g tank, 9lbs of LR isn't enough.

For a 20L tank (~5.3g) however, it's a good amount of LR.

JT3069 · 09/07/2011, 02:16 PM

DEFINATLY NOT

YOU WILL SEE nitrite GO UP THEN nitrate'S WILL RISE
AFTER THIS AMMONIA AND NITRITES WILL GO TO ZERO
THIS IS YOUR NITROGEN CYCLE COMPLETEING(TO A POINT)
THAT IS WHEN YOUR TANK WILL BE CYCLED

Quote:

Registered Member

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 928
You had no bioload until you put the fish in. Of course your readings were going to be zero. Do weekly water changes until your amonia comes down. I would not add any other fish until you resolve this. Do not overfeed. The smaller the tank, the faster things can go south. It will take time to get your tank in balance. Do you have a cleanup crew? If not, then all that extra food just sinks and rots. Get some snails and hermits. Buy your own test kits and test regularly.

I WOULD NOT ADD ANY FISH STAY WHERE YOU ARE AT LET THE CYCLE COMPLETE
GIVE IT TIME AND JUST WATCH YOUR PARA AS IT CHANGES

DAMSELS ARE HARDY IT WILL SURVIVE

sweeper7 · 09/07/2011, 02:19 PM

in total I will have 14 lbs of LR once the transfer is complete. I think 1 more 5 lb LR should do

blt · 09/07/2011, 02:24 PM

Just to clear up confusion, are we talking 20L or 20G (as I just realized you may have meant a 20 Gallon "long" tank and not a 20 Liter tank)?

sweeper7 · 09/07/2011, 02:52 PM

oh sorry, I meant a 20Gal Long

09/07/2011, 12:58 PM	#1
sweeper7 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 822	Help with my cycle that ended so quick? Okay guys this is where I currently stand, help is needed. I started a 20L with RO/DI water, 30lbs of LS, and 9lbs of LR. I added the LR 48 hrs after LS and SW was in the tank. 5 days later, filter running etc I took a water sample to petco for tests and it came out perfect, 0 across the board. I went to another LFS and same results. They told me to add a damsel because it should be safe but just incase if a cycle occurs they are strong and can do fine. So then I put in 2 damsel in the tank and about 6 days ago I went back to petco and my ammonia was very slightly up and was told you should see it spike then drop so it turns into nitrite/nitrate within a week to 2 weeks which indicates your cycle. I went in today, which is about 5 days after and my ammonia was sitting in between .5 and 1, 0 nitrate, 0 nitrite. the guy said a partial water change is needed to see if we can get rid of the ammonia that way. I asked if its a cycle starting since its about 2.5 weeks old he said it should have started by now but since you took LR from an established tank with fish and shrimps and starfish etc in it it could be that it already caused the cycle to end very quickly if a small one occurred. So now I am stuck here not knowing what to do, whether to do the water change, add my clownfish from my other tank that is being transfered into here or not because I dont know if the water is safe or it hasn't even started a cycle or it has and its was a very small one.

09/07/2011, 01:22 PM	#5
Sugar Magnolia Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Northern VA Posts: 17,691	And Petco makes another sale. Your tank hadn't even begun to cycle yet. Cycling with damsels is cruel. Placing them in such a harsh environment where ammonia will be present just subjects them to the possibility of dying. In addition, they are extremely aggressive fish and will be a royal pain to catch when you have to get them out when they kill any other fish you plan to put in there. IMO, remove the damsels and add some more LR - 9 pounds isn't nearly enough to provide an adequate biological filter. Shoot for 1-1 1/2 pounds per gallon, depending upon how porous it is. Either that or get some dry base rock. Your 9 pounds of LR will seed the base rock over time. Lastly, buy some test kits and do your own testing. Keep a journal of all of your numbers so you can track your cycle. __________________ Adrienne The only thing to fear is fear itself....and spiders.

09/07/2011, 01:22 PM	#6
Ron Reefman Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Cape Coral, FL Posts: 10,431	In a 20g tank, 9lbs of LR isn't enough. I'd add 10-15lbs more. With that you shouldn't need to do a water change to remove ammonia. The bacteria will convert it, just give it time. If you had a mature tank with lots of delicate corals and you didn't know why the amonia was up, I'd suggest watch it a day and see what happens. If it goes up more, a water change may be needed. But you only have 2 damsels and that isn't too muck for 30lbs of rock. Be careful how much you feed them. Food that isn't eaten is just about like detritus and becomes ammonia fairly quickly. Comment: Unless you know the LFS guy well and he knows your system (or asks a lot of questions) don't take his advise at face value. Some are really good and some are dumb as a box of rocks... and probably not live rocks at that. And +1 to all that Adrienne said above. Buy ammonia and nitrate kits at the minimum, add pH and maybe a nitrite, even though 3 months from now you'll probably never use it again. But you need to test every other day minimum, every day would be better. __________________ The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it. (Neil deGrasse Tyson) Visit my build thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2593017 Last edited by Ron Reefman; 09/07/2011 at 01:28 PM.

09/07/2011, 01:48 PM	#11
Uncle Salty 05 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 3,799	Your cycle in not completed until your nitrites read zero. This usually takes 3-4 weeks. Even after your cycle has completed it must cycle again every time you add to the bioload by adding a fish or other animal. With each addition the bacterial colonies that cycle your tank need 2-3 weeks to catch up. Get your own test kits and do regular water changes with RO/DI water. What are you using for filtration and flow? __________________ In all that I endure, of one thing I am sure. Knowledge and reason, change like the season. A jester's promenade. - Kerry Livgren Current Tank Info: 180 gal reef tank with dual attached refugiums 20 long and 10 gallon. Plus 55 gallon True Percula breeding tank.

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09/07/2011, 01:12 PM	#2
schristi69 Master of Space and Time Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 1,340	You had no bioload until you put the fish in. Of course your readings were going to be zero. Do weekly water changes until your amonia comes down. I would not add any other fish until you resolve this. Do not overfeed. The smaller the tank, the faster things can go south. It will take time to get your tank in balance. Do you have a cleanup crew? If not, then all that extra food just sinks and rots. Get some snails and hermits. Buy your own test kits and test regularly.

09/07/2011, 01:17 PM	#3
sweeper7 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 822	I dont have any food sitting around, my fish eats once every 3 days. does this mean the cycle finished though?

09/07/2011, 01:20 PM	#4
sweeper7 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 822	wierd thing is 1 of the damsels one morning a few days ago was jsut dead at the bottom of the water. that was with ammonia at barely anything above 0

09/07/2011, 01:30 PM	#7
sweeper7 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 822	its 30lbs of LS not LR, only 9 lbs of LR. I have 5 lbs of LR in my other tank waiting to be transfered but my clown is in that tank and I don't want to remove that LR yet b/c i was told it can harm my other tank without it.

09/07/2011, 01:34 PM	#8
schristi69 Master of Space and Time Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 1,340	You probably starved your fish to death. Once every 3 days????

09/07/2011, 01:37 PM	#9
sweeper7 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 822	i was told to feed the frozen shrimp to them once every 3 days.

09/07/2011, 01:51 PM	#12
sporto0 Moved On Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa. Posts: 2,924	It is obvious what has happened here, your tank never began it's cycle, the best method now is what the others have suggested, add mature cured Live Rock & feeding every three days is absolutely fine, fish can live up to a month without food, your Damsel died from exposure to ammonia, not starvation.

09/07/2011, 01:52 PM	#13
sweeper7 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 822	AquaClear 50. I just ordered the API master test kit for pH, amm, nit, and nitrate.

09/07/2011, 01:56 PM	#15
sweeper7 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 822	i do have some fish food stuck about 3 of them in the foam of the AC filter...should I remove those?

09/07/2011, 02:01 PM	#17
sweeper7 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 822	reason this mess occurred is b/c petco sold me freshwater crap for my SW fish and completely caused a headache. freshwater food, gravel, plants, aquarium set up etc. I have 9 lbs of aquacultured Live Rock from an already established tank with lots of fish and inverts. was out of the water for maybe 20 min before it got into my tank .

09/07/2011, 02:02 PM	#18
xCry0x Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Martinez, CA Posts: 1,116	The cycle length is hard to estimate because it depends on the quality of live rock/sand.. You need to monitor it and wait. Honestly assuming you used live sand/live rock and there is bacteria converting ammonia to nitrate/nitrite you can probably just keep doing larger 20% water changes every few days to help keep the levels lower until the bacteria fully develops. The ideal situation is just to let it all develop but since you already bought fish and have them living in there just tough it out with frequent water changes until everything stabilizes.

09/07/2011, 02:06 PM	#19
sweeper7 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 822	is it a good idea to do the water change today 25% of it?

09/07/2011, 02:19 PM	#23
sweeper7 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 822	in total I will have 14 lbs of LR once the transfer is complete. I think 1 more 5 lb LR should do

09/07/2011, 02:24 PM	#24
blt Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 205	Just to clear up confusion, are we talking 20L or 20G (as I just realized you may have meant a 20 Gallon "long" tank and not a 20 Liter tank)?

09/07/2011, 02:52 PM	#25
sweeper7 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 822	oh sorry, I meant a 20Gal Long