Cycling sumpless? + Questions

[ssick92]

Hey everyone, I have a question about cycling.

Well, over Thanksgiving, I will be getting my 30g tank, 30 lbs of LR, 40 lbs of live sand, a heater, and some powerheads. Is this enough to start cycling?

My plan is to have the tank cycling over Christmas break, but since I don't have an ATO at the moment, I can't really set up the sump to run for 3 weeks while I'm gone. Would it be okay to just bypass the sump part for cycling and just fill up the tank?

Also, I will not be getting my RO/DI system til Christmas, so I will be using tap water. I'm assuming I treat it with water conditioner? Then after Christmas, would you recommend replacing all the tap water with RO/DI water, or just use it for the top off water/water changes?


What exactly does a refugium do besides keep whatever pods? Is it necessary to have one in the sump? If I get a better skimmer, could I do without a refugium? Would this be a fine sump design?


On another note, I currently have a 10 gallon freshwater tank with a HOB filter set up. This is the tank I will be using for my QT when the time comes for fish (obviously I'm not even close). I would take everything out.. If I just let this HOB run with saltwater for a few weeks, would it be alright to use as a filter in my QT? I'm not sure what kind of media is in the filter, or if a freshwater filter can also be used for saltwater.

So basically, would I be able to just take the heater and filter from my current FW tank, and use it in my QT with no cycling? Except to maybe introduce the salt water to the filter first?

Again, thanks for putting up with all my questions. I would just rather know what I'm doing and do it right then winging it and crashing a reef.

[blt]

Originally Posted by ssick92

Well, over Thanksgiving, I will be getting my 30g tank, 30 lbs of LR, 40 lbs of live sand, a heater, and some powerheads. Is this enough to start cycling?

Yes!

Originally Posted by ssick92

My plan is to have the tank cycling over Christmas break, but since I don't have an ATO at the moment, I can't really set up the sump to run for 3 weeks while I'm gone. Would it be okay to just bypass the sump part for cycling and just fill up the tank?

You can cycle without the sump. But you'll still can't go 3 weeks without topping up the tank, with or without a sump.

Originally Posted by ssick92

Also, I will not be getting my RO/DI system til Christmas, so I will be using tap water. I'm assuming I treat it with water conditioner? Then after Christmas, would you recommend replacing all the tap water with RO/DI water, or just use it for the top off water/water changes?

Well, don't do it ALL at once. Either go with larger weekly changes than typical, or smaller, more frequent changes for the first little while.

Originally Posted by ssick92

What exactly does a refugium do besides keep whatever pods?

It's additional space for biological filtration through live rock and sand. It can also be used to hold a macroalgae such as Chaetomorpha, which can be pruned and acts as a nutrient export.

Originally Posted by ssick92

Is it necessary to have one in the sump?

You don't absolutely need one, and if you do have one it doesn't have to be in the sump. Most people have it in the sump as a matter of convenience.

Originally Posted by ssick92

If I get a better skimmer, could I do without a refugium?

A skimmer only does part of the work that a refugium does.

Originally Posted by ssick92

Would this be a fine sump design?

Looks workable, depending on what you're looking for. I don't think the 2 baffle setup will work as a bubble trap though, and be aware that the water height in your first chamber will match the shorter of the two baffles.

Flow would be a bit high for a refugium in either of those chambers though, and would impact the effectiveness of that LR.

Originally Posted by ssick92

On another note, I currently have a 10 gallon freshwater tank with a HOB filter set up. This is the tank I will be using for my QT when the time comes for fish (obviously I'm not even close). I would take everything out.. If I just let this HOB run with saltwater for a few weeks, would it be alright to use as a filter in my QT? I'm not sure what kind of media is in the filter, or if a freshwater filter can also be used for saltwater.

So basically, would I be able to just take the heater and filter from my current FW tank, and use it in my QT with no cycling? Except to maybe introduce the salt water to the filter first?

I'm not 100% on this, but I think the bacteria in the media already would not survive the transition to salt water. You would either need to cycle the QT, or stick the media in a cycled system to seed it first.

You only really want the sponge portion of the filter media as well. I don't really remember the reason why, unfortunately. Something about activated carbon and medication I think. This likely rules out a filter that uses all-in-one media. If it's one where you can buy the stages separately, you'll be fine.

The heater will be fine.

Originally Posted by ssick92

Again, thanks for putting up with all my questions. I would just rather know what I'm doing and do it right then winging it and crashing a reef.

Asking questions is absolutely the way to go.

[thegrun]

I would skip the "live sand" and use dry sand. Most of the "live sand" sold has more dead organic than live organic material in it. Yes you can start your cycle without a sump, but you may end up killing off some of the organisms on your live rock if your salinity gets too high from evaporation. If you don't have someone to add fresh water to the tank, I would wait until after break.
Starting a tank with tap water is not a good idea unless your local water is extremely pure. Tap water often contains a lot of undesirable chemicals that will get you started on the wrong foot and could cause you months of hard work and frustration trying to undo the damage. WAIT!!! You are looking at short cuts that may well cause you issues, slow down and do things right. Conditioners will not remove nitrates and/or heavy metals. You should be able to get RO/DI water at any of the campus lab buildings. For my tanks, the main reason I run a refugium is to reduce nitrates and phosphates, not to breed pods (although they are a nice bi-product). You can get by without a skimmer or refugium, but to do so means more frequent water changes will be required.

[ssick92]

Thanks blt for breakin down my post, very helpful! These are 3 other designs I was thinking, with a refugium. The problem is that I don't have the stand yet so I'm not totally sure if I have enough space for a light for the refugium. But here are the designs in case I do:




thegrun, I wouldn't say I am trying to take shortcuts, I am just trying to utilize time in the most efficient way. I'm not trying to rush the cycling process, I am still willing to wait until my water parameters are stable for a month. Is there a typical value on how much water will evaporate? I bet there probably isn't because it depends on temp and other variables.

What if I cycled it with low salinity? Then the evaporation wouldn't take the salinity up too high. Let me add this, I am not trying to complete the cycle process when I am gone, I simply just want to get it kickstarted so that when I come back, I can fix up all the issues that arose in my absence.

Can anyone else chime in about the FW filter for my QT?

[blt]

In 3 full weeks, you could lose a LOT of water. In a really dry environment, you could lose half the volume of your tank to evaporation in that time.

There are formulas used to determine the evaporation rate, but you're right - it involves knowing both the air and water temps, relative humidity in the air, air movement across the water surface, etc.

As for the sump designs, the 3rd one is close to the standard. You just need to make sure that you have something pushing water into it (at a much lower rate than the drain or return). That can be a much smaller T off of the drain or return, or a separate pump. The first two will have issues with the flow through the refugium being way too high.

[ssick92]

Originally Posted by blt

That can be a much smaller T off of the drain or return, or a separate pump. The first two will have issues with the flow through the refugium being way too high.

If I use the 3rd design, I would definitely T-off of drain pipe and send some to the refugium and some to the skimmer. What would be a good ratio to use for that?

[ssick92]

I just thought of something... however, I have no idea if it is feasible or not...

Since I will be leaving the tank for about 3 weeks over Christmas break, I will be losing a ton of water due to evaporation. However... what if I covered the tank with syran wrap, which the water would then collect on, and condense and fall back into the tank.

I honestly have no idea if this is physically possible, just a thought... any feedback on if its possible to help contain the water loss due to evaporation?

[blt]

Plastic wrap will help with evaporation, yes, but not eliminate it.

It could cause oxygen level issues though - unfortunately we're getting out of my range of experience with that.

As for the flow to the refugium, put a valve on the pipe after the T-off to control the flow. The amount of flow I hear being tossed around most often for a refugium is to turn over the volume roughly once an hour.

[Jocko]

Yeah definitely scrap the plastic wrap idea. I think the oxygen depletion would cause a significantly worse problem than the high salinity would. As in everything dead within days.

While I appreciate the appeal of having a 3 week head start on the cycle, I'd definitely recommend just waiting until after break. There's a million things that could go wrong in 3 weeks, especially on a brand new setup. If future you had a time machine, I'm sure he'd use it to travel back in time 3 weeks and thank you for waiting.

[NyteGTI]

are you gonig to be running your lights while you're away? what temp are you gonig to keep the tank? Where do you live?

but i agree with jocko, just wait and do it when the tank has your full attention.

[ssick92]

I will not be running the lights, I will try to keep the tank around 76 degrees, and the tank is located on the Central Coast in CA. San Luis Obispo to be precise. In the winter weeks, it probably won't go above 60-70 degrees outside.

Ya, I didn't really think that the plastic wrap would keep oxygen out, good call.

[lordofthereef]

I am not sure how or why the ATO plays into your scenario. You are going to get evaporation from the main tank. Leaving it three weeks without manual topoff is going to spike your salinity. How high is based on how much evaporation you get. Simply put, I wouldn't leave a tank without someone adding fresh water to the system at least once or twice a week.

By the way, SLO is a wonderfully beautiful city. Are you there for school? I graduated CPSLO in '08!

[ssick92]

Originally Posted by lordofthereef

I am not sure how or why the ATO plays into your scenario. You are going to get evaporation from the main tank. Leaving it three weeks without manual topoff is going to spike your salinity. How high is based on how much evaporation you get. Simply put, I wouldn't leave a tank without someone adding fresh water to the system at least once or twice a week.

By the way, SLO is a wonderfully beautiful city. Are you there for school? I graduated CPSLO in '08!

Yes! I am a Construction Management major at CPSLO, planning on graduating in '14. I am originally from Orange County.

I just created a thread about a cheap ATO system, but I got confused when looking at all the choices.

[lordofthereef]

I would personally recommend that ATO. If you do get to it, I would do it sooner rather than later, just so you are around to test it out the first couple of days/weeks. You wouldn't want to hook something like that up the day before you leave or you might come home to unexpected surprises.

What were your concerns regarding an ATO? Looking to build one or buy one premade? I've seen them range from about $40 to about $150 premade. Making your own would likely run you around $25-30.

[jgsteven]

Originally Posted by ssick92

I just created a thread about a cheap ATO system, but I got confused when looking at all the choices.

I would definitely recommend an ATO. The one on my 30G biocube cost me less than $100. After I installed it I would never have a tank without one. Topping up fresh water is such a pain!!