Generator and electronics questions

[aleonn]

I'm planning to get a 4000-5000W non-inverter generator as a back-up for my 180 gallon tank, heating, and refrigerator. I do have a couple of battery-operated air pumps, and a Vortech battery back-up, but want more protection. I'm waiting for a good sale to take advantage of, but price is still a factor (since it won't be in operation much, hopefully). Hence, I don't plan on getting a more expensive inverter generator (like the superior Honda generators).

My question is, would a non-inverter generator be safe to use with a Vortech MP40 pump, Vortech battery back-up, JBJ Tru-Temp 800W heater, Water Blaster HY-7000, SWC 180 Extreme Skimmer, and MJ-1200 pumps? I also have an Apex, but most likely would not use it in conjunction with the generator.

I do plan to use the appropriate GFCI and power surge protection devices, but wanted everyone's input and experience. All advice is appreciated! TIA!

Also, if anyone has links to good deals for generators, please let me know (I'm in California, and believe I can only purchase CARB-approved generators).

[meshwheel]

aleonn,
Many people do not know this but you can purchase a simple Black and Decker Inverter from home depot for 80.00! It hooks onto your car battery and you can plug in two extensions cords off it and it will supply 1,500 watts!!
I too am in So. Cal. and I did not want to spend big high dollars for a generator. However it seems we cannot trust SCE anymore.
They are more worried about haning on to overtime dollars then getting peoples power restored!!!
Two of these inverters would give you close to 3000 watts. Just use your cars as the generators!
If you want a good generator the Ridged home depot brands are excellent and very reasonable! Ridged tools are guaranteed for life!!!! Home Depot owns Ridged!
Good luck with which ever way you go! Thats very smart on your part you are taking the necessary precautions!!!

[aleonn]

Thanks for the reply, meshwheel. I got worried after the recent Santa Ana winds knocked out power to a lot of folks. I feel sorry for those in Pasadena/SGV who still don't have power, and I think it's been at least 5 days for them!

I didn't think of using a car inverter! I assume the car has to be running the entire time, and that the max wattage is 1500W for each car battery? It's definitely something for me to consider, due to storage space limitations and cost!

I'll check into the Ridged HD generators, thanks for the recommendation!

[meshwheel]

aleonn,
Nope the car does not have to be running! And they come with built in indicators and aut shut offs if you battery that it's running off starts to get low on juice! Then you can fire teh car or truck back up to charge it up! Look on ebay, they are dirt cheap on ebay!
I feel bad for those people still without power! That is so unfair. I think a big class action lawsuit will follow................

[fishgate]

Yes, you will need to run your car for those inverters or else the battery will die very quickly. One battery will not supply very much power for your devices for any length of time.

Also I do not think you are going to get 1500 watts out of your cigarette lighter. I believe if you read the fine print on those that they expect you to install an accessory power dock that is rated for higher power in order to get that many watts. If you do not, you are going to continously blow the lighter fuse in the car.

You only real answer is a generator. And to answer your original question, most generators of that size will deliver clean enough power to not damage any electrical device and all of them come with voltage regulators to keep your power output close to 120 volts. You said you are going to continue to run the surge supressors but if you are concerned and want to spend the extra, you could get a line conditioner. I wouldn't though.

Also make sure you ground the generator while running. Get a 2 foot copper pipe, jame 12" in the ground and solder a 10 gauge wire between the copper pipe and the generators frame.

You shoud be able to pick up a 5500 watt generator at home depot for around $400-$500. Not sure what you want to spend, but for another $1000, you can have a transfer switch installed so when you run the generator, the power is fed directly into your circuit box. You can then power much of your house instead of just a frig and a couple of pumps.

Good Luck!

[meshwheel]

Fishgate,
These inverters hook directly to your battery. Not the smaller cigarette ones. The ends look like jumper cables and they clamp right on to the car battery.
A 5500 watt Ridged is about 1000.00. However I know they carry homelite and they are cheaper in price.
It jsut hurts to purchase a generator and then it sits................and sits......................and sits......................lol.
I know the inverters are rated up to 1500 watts, but will do I think it's 1000 continuously. They are great for the money! It will be perfect for my new 65 gallon!!!
Yes thats a great idea! I think you could clamp to your current grounding rod too if you have one. We rewired my entire house with a 240 amp panel. We have a grounding rod, I pounded that dam thing in through clay dirt!

[Plato]

For pumps to work properly and safely then do not use a standard generator. You must use a true sign wave inverter invertersrus.com. A normal generator produces a standard Hz sign wave. Inverter generators just are 100% true and cleaner than some power companies. I personally have a Honda 2000 watt inverter generator.

[fishgate]

check out this site - http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/

[aleonn]

Thanks for the input and links, I'll continue to do more research and hope to catch a nice sale

[atreis]

Originally Posted by meshwheel

Fishgate,
These inverters hook directly to your battery. Not the smaller cigarette ones. The ends look like jumper cables and they clamp right on to the car battery.

Not all inverters are created equal.

Inexpensive inverters (such as an $88 one) will be modified-sine wave, meaning they actually produce a stepped square wave as output instead of a sine wave. Some electronics, and most pumps, do not run as well on such inverters. SOME power supplies for electronics won't be able to convert the power to DC as efficiently or consistently (computers tend to be okay, but you'd have to test it with something like the Vortechs - what happens is that the power supply can introduce noise at the step points into the produced DC power, which can cause problems).

Normal AC pumps will run significantly less efficiently and significantly hotter.

To not have this problem, you would need a pure sine wave inverter - there are many available. The downside: they cost A LOT more.

Another thing to keep in mind: Your car's alternator has a certain amp capacity (usually in the range of 50 to 70 amps output for cars, somewhat higher for some trucks). If you exceed this amount of draw you'll be drawing down the battery in your car to make up the difference, which could leave you with a dead battery even though your car is running. Since the inverter is converting 12V to 120V, just multiply the 120V AC amps by 11 (the extra 1% is for inverter inefficiency) to get a rough idea of the amps being pulled from the car's power system.


Inverter generators usually (Honda, Yamaha, Kipor, some others ...) use good quality inverters that produce clean power that's either pure sine wave or very close to it. Another benefit of inverter generators is that many are MUCH quieter than non-inverter generators.

In terms of the OP's original question, non-inverter generators (such as the open-cage contractor-grade generators) use an alternator directly connected to the engine to produce electricity. Alternators produce sine wave output, however the quality of the alternator, and the ability of the generator's engine to keep it spinning at a constant speed, varies a lot. Inexpensive ones produce dirty power (noise in the signal, and slow response to changing loads), but it will generally work fine for VorTech's, pumps, and most other applications. If you can stand the noise, they're not a bad option for backup power.

[moondoggy4]

I just saw an add last week with the Honda generators were on sale somewhere near the 30% off good price but you could goggle that price also.

[atreis]

By the way, as an additional comment on the inverter approach: If your car is not running, don't use an inverter for very long. Car batteries are NOT deep cycle batteries and will be damaged if you drop them below about half capacity. Most car batteries have a reserve capacity in the range of 20-30 amp-hours, meaning you can draw that many amps for an hour (or 1 amp for that many hours) before completely depleting the battery.

In other words, if you have a 2 amp AC load, you'll be pulling 22 amps from your battery. To prevent damaging the battery (and leave enough to start the car) you wouldn't want to run that load from that battery without the car running for more than 20 minutes - half an hour tops.