Snails all upside down, only coral shrinking

[scooter1]

I am fairly new to this hobby.

I left around 7:00 am cst and everything seemed to be okay.
I came home this evening about 6:30 pm cst to find about every snail I can see upside down and my only quarter size coral smaller than a dime.

I immediately noticed that the one koralia 4 that was in the tank was not running. I have another one and swapped it out and while doing so I received a slight shock when pulling the wet koralia 4 out.

The green algae and brown film have been receding since I picked up the 20 odd snails and 20 odd crabs back about a month ago.

The two fish seem okay.

I have not changed the water (ie the 20% change) in a little over a month. No excuses I know, but that is where I am.

Salinity is about 1.25 ppm unless the old hydrometer/thermometer is wrong.
Temperature is about 79 degree F again unless the hydrometer/thermometer is wrong.
pH of 8.6-9, a little high.
Alk in normal range 1.7-2.8.
Ammonia of about .25 ppm.
NO2 of about .1 ppm.

Someone please help me here I am at a loss as to what to do. I would like to raise the pH a little but not sure exactly how to do that, I will research when I get done posting this.

[fishgate]

Well it sounds to me like your tank got energized by the bad pump. The smaller animals were affected more. Hopefully they are not dead. Levels are just levels that are off but my money is the electrical leak cause the livestock issues.

[scooter1]

~20% water change is complete.
NO3 level of about 50 before the change.
I think it might have been a combination of NO3 and electrical.
Hopefully with the powerhead and water change this has been partially fixed.

I plan on checking the no3 level tomorrow as well.

How soon would be too soon to change out ~20% of the water again?
How do I maintain the salt level when changing this much water out?
How do I tell if a snail is dead, they don't move for how long?

Any other information that anyone can offer would be great.

Thanks in advance.

[Dustin1300]

How mature is your tank? Why would you even test for ammonia if your tank has already cycled?

[scooter1]

@Dustin1300
Honestly I didn't know what to check for so just ran every test that I have to run.

The tank has been in place since early October of this year.

[j86miu]

My first question was also how mature is your tank... and why do you have ammonia readings? Were all the snails actually dead?

[Jeremy Blaze]

Originally Posted by j86miu

My first question was also how mature is your tank... and why do you have ammonia readings? Were all the snails actually dead?

He stated tank has only been running since Oct.

Sounds like the tank was not stable and cycled before the introduction of a large number of animals.

[Jeremy Blaze]

ph is already high, don't try and rasie it.
I beat nitrates are high as well which will kill snails.

I hope your salinity is 1.025 not 1.25 as well.

[rezaktp]

Get a ground probe, and be sure all electronics are on a GFCI outlet.

[jon99]

Originally Posted by scooter1

~20% water change is complete.
NO3 level of about 50 before the change.
I think it might have been a combination of NO3 and electrical.
Hopefully with the powerhead and water change this has been partially fixed.

I plan on checking the no3 level tomorrow as well.

How soon would be too soon to change out ~20% of the water again?

I would go ahead and set up a container of fresh saltwater to have on hand now. Drop in a powerhead to circulate/oxygenate it and a heater to match it's temp to that of your tank. You can do another water change as soon as you have this ready. Just make sure the new water's parameters (salinity, temp, pH) match that of your tank before doing the water change.

How do I maintain the salt level when changing this much water out?

By matching the salinity of the new water to that of your tank.

How do I tell if a snail is dead, they don't move for how long?
First off pull them out one at a time and give them a sniff. If they have been dead since yesterday they may already be starting to decompose. Also, snails have a "door" on their shell that they close up when they go inside. If it's tighly closed the snail is probably still alive. Take out any of those you're sure are dead. The rest I would place right side up and put them all in a tight circle in an open area. The live ones will recover and disperse into the tank. Keep checking those that are left in the circle and remove as soon as they start smelling funky.

Any other information that anyone can offer would be great.

Thanks in advance.

[scooter1]

@jon99
I have another ~32 gallon ready for another ~20% change on hand.
I put all the snails I could find that were upside down in a circle up front there are seven of them I believe. We will see how they fair, they all seemed to move when I touched their underside.
The NO2 level is either 0 or just above it
The NO3 level is between 10-20 ppm

@rezaktp
I now have two dead Koralias! The second one was connected to a different outlet on a different power strip. There were and still are two fully functional marineland maxijet 1200 powerheads. Everything else is working fine even items plugged into the other outlets on the same power strips. I am not sure what happened to the Koralias but it seems isolated. It probably still shocked everything when the first one gave out and it might have done it again when the second stopped. I unplugged the second one and will remove it shortly. So I don't really think there is anything to hunt down here, other than to wonder why in the heck two Koralia's gave out?? I bought them used but that is still weird.

@Jeremy Blaze
Temp still around 80 degree F and you are correct I had a typo the salinity was and still is 1.025. You probably are correct that the NO2 and NO3 levels were a tad high.

On the Koralia note, is there some history of these things giving out after some time, or after switching tanks, or ...?

[scooter1]

Another water change done, ~24 gallons this time.

None of the relocated snails have moved since I put them in the circle about 2.5 hours ago. Not sure what to make of that.

It seems like ( or maybe I am being hopeful ) that the lone coral that is in the tank looks better.

I will retest the NO2 and NO3 levels tomorrow when I get home.

Is there anything else that I could be missing?

[w16227]

Originally Posted by scooter1

Another water change done, ~24 gallons this time.

None of the relocated snails have moved since I put them in the circle about 2.5 hours ago. Not sure what to make of that.

It seems like ( or maybe I am being hopeful ) that the lone coral that is in the tank looks better.

I will retest the NO2 and NO3 levels tomorrow when I get home.

Is there anything else that I could be missing?

Korallias are generally high quality pumps.

Are you using a GFI outlet and ground probe? Most important is the GFI - keeps you safe. The outlets are simple to install - and there are also stand alone ones if you do not want to go that route.


More information that would be helpful -

was the tank new/used? Ever have copper treatment in it (could explain coral/snail issues)?

give us the tank specifics - size, filtration, other general equipment.

stocking - what is in there and when was it added>

[RubberFrog]

I wouldn't worry about the snails not moving after just 2.5 hours, but they should move over night.

[Jeremy Blaze]

So how did you cycle this tank? What other livestock do you have?

[scooter1]

@w16227
Not currently using GFI or ground probe as the tank is in a temporary location where there is no GFI. Maybe I need to find a ground probe or the GFI, but I don't get shocked and given that everything is chained to the same outlet if one went it would be highly likely that they would all go. Plus nothing other than the snails/coral seem to be affected as the crabs and fish all seem 100% fine.

The tank has been in place since the middle of October, which was purchased used. I have not done any cooper treatments and doubt the person who previously owned it did. As to the specifics of everything please see this thread versus me rehashing it again
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2084375

The clown fish and second fish both made the trip with the tank. There were about two snails and three crabs all which didn't make it. About two or three weeks ago I knew I needed more snails and crabs as I had none and got about 10 snails and 10 crabs to put in the tank.

*****
@RubberFrog
So none of the snails moved in 24 hours, I am going to assume all of them are dead now.

*****
@Jeremy Blaze
See the comments above about the tank move and livestock. To add to that, we kept about 110 gallons of the original water in the tank from the original owner. We only had to go and get ~40 gallons of salt water from an aquarium shop that day. Since then I have done three water changes (two in the past two days).

I measured NO2 at either zero or close to it, but I'm getting mixed info from the testing material. Should NO2 be close to zero or above 1?

I measured NO3 again as well and it is still between 10 and 20. Is this because of the ~seven dead snails?

Should I do another ~20% water change again tonight? Would it do any good?

Thanks

[scooter1]

bump as I am still looking for answers

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by scooter1

I am fairly new to this hobby.

....

I immediately noticed that the one koralia 4 that was in the tank was not running. I have another one and swapped it out and while doing so I received a slight shock when pulling the wet koralia 4 out.

And you did not unplug it before you stuck your hand in the tank?

[uncleof6]

On electrical safety:

Electrical safety around an aquarium starts with common sense, not with GFCI recpetacles and ground probes.

If you notice a problem with an item of electrical equipment in the water--unplug it before you reach in to grab it. Darwin Awards have been given for less.

Most electrical voltage in an aquarium is induced, and of a low enough magnitude, to be of no concern. In the case of a faulting pump, the current flow will be local to the pump, though the impressed voltage potential would be present throughout the tank. Still, this impressed voltage, would not be a problem for the critters. What would be a problem for the critters, would be electrical current flow through the tank, enabled by a grounding probe, due to the impressed voltage potential.

A GFCI, provided the grounding probe is hooked up correctly, may trip, or it may not--depending on the cause of the impressed voltage. If the voltage is induced, it will not trip. If it is due to a shorted pump, or the line or neutral were exposed to the water, then it would trip.

It is important to remember, that installing a grounding probe, creates a path to ground, that did not exist, and should not. The use of inductive loads, such as HID lighting, and AC motors, make being around grounded salt water, a fatal attraction. GFCIs will not trip, when the contact is between an induced output (your light fixture for example) and a ground (the water in the tank.)

Safety starts with common sense, not a grounding probe. Most electrocutions around aquariums do not involve the water, rather the rats nest of cords associated with the tank. Also, it is not recommended to use GFCI's with motors in continuous use (which ours are) nor HID lighting, (flourescent/MH) were more often than not, they do no good.

Common sense first. Unplug AC equipment if you plan to reach in and grab it. If you get a shock, don't stick your hand in the tank a second time! At least until you can determine the cause.

By all means use GFCI recpetacles. But carefully consider the added risk factors associated with the use of grounding probes.

[scooter1]

@uncleof6
I didn't really think that I would get enough to kill me, but I thought I had unplugged it first. Instead I had originally unplugged it to try a different outlet which of course didn't work. I just forgot to unplug it the second time when trying to pull it out of the tank. I feel if it was truly an electrical issue then one of the other pieces of equipment would had to have kicked the bucket as well.

******
I just tested the water again and NO2 is at or near zero and the NO3 is still between 10-20 ppm. I would have changed it out lastnight but just didn't. I am going to change it now, but I am not sure that I am doing any good and was really looking for feedback on this as well. Is there anything else I can be doing to reduce the NO3 level?

Thanks,

[Jeremy Blaze]

What is your biologial filtration on this tank?

[scooter1]

@Jeremy Blaze
~200lb of live sand and ~150lb of live rock.
I don't know if the snails and crabs that are still alive is what you were looking for, but there are about 12 crabs and possibly one or two snails.
There is a green filter on one of the drains going into the refugium. Other than that I don't know if there is anything else.

[Jeremy Blaze]

How deep is the sand? Was this sand disturbed during the move?

Do you have any fish in the tank?

[scooter1]

@Jeremy Blaze
The sand is about 2" deep, maybe a little less. The sand was seriously disturbed during the move. I disturbed it a little right before the first water change a couple of days ago, but not really since it has been in place since mid October.

Just the two aforementioned fish that made the journey with the tank. I really don't have that much alive in the tank to be putting out this much NO3.

I know that I am missing something, but I don't know where to look.

[scooter1]

What am I doing wrong?

The NO2 and NO3 levels are still the same after three water changes in about four days. What can I do to get the NO3 levels down?