organizing a 3 chamber sump

[JoshSD]

Hi,

I'm hoping to get some advice on how to configure the 3 chamber sump that came with the setup I am putting together.

Here's a picture (I hope) of the ~18G sump that will be under the 50G DT:

[IMG]http://i43.*******.com/r88bns.jpg[/IMG]

My question has to do with whether it is an option to have the refugium in the large far right chamber, rather than the very narrow center chamber. It seems like having the additional space for the fuge (the large chamber is about 7" inside width, vs a bit less than 3" inside width for the middle chamber).

The baffles are currently set up for a 1-2-3 high-medium-low overflow, which seems to keep the high water mark even with the highest baffle. So, I am hoping that I can get adequate flow for the return from the center chamber (which involves using a different pump, as the utility pump I have in the picture is too wide for the center chamber).

I'm hoping that I can use the sump as-is, without moving any of the baffles, simply by putting a suitable pump in that middle chamber. Then, I would modify the plumbing so that the drain pipe would split into separate valves that would then feed the 2 outside chambers as skimmer and fuge.

Would this work? Or are the baffles set up in such a way that I will not get adequate flow? Thanks in advance for advice.

[Curtis.H]

You could put the skimmer and return pump in the right chamber and use the left as the fuge. Split off the drain and run part of it into the fuge and part of it into the center section (you probably don't want the flow thru your fuge to be the total pump capacity). Put some rock rubble in the center section for added filter capacity. If you have problems with mico bubbles from the skimmer being pumped into the display tank put a filter sock on the output of the skimmer and that should eliminate them.

That is the way I have my sump set up. The only difference is I use an external return pump.

[JoshSD]

Very interesting; I hadn't considered a configuration where the skimmer and return were in the same chamber. Thanks for the tips, this may be just what I needed. Have you been running this way for a while, and have you been satisfied with the performance?

[GPB]

What Curtis H. said. If you do that however I suggest you have an ATO as the water level in the last chamber will fluctuate quite a bit if your'e only replacing fresh water once or twice per day.

[JoshSD]

Originally Posted by GPB

What Curtis H. said. If you do that however I suggest you have an ATO as the water level in the last chamber will fluctuate quite a bit if your'e only replacing fresh water once or twice per day.

Absolutely. I'll be running an ATO setup with a Reef Angel controller. I assume the recommendation is to monitor that last chamber and have the ATO fill there?

Thanks!

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by JoshSD

Hi,

I'm hoping to get some advice on how to configure the 3 chamber sump that came with the setup I am putting together.

Here's a picture (I hope) of the ~18G sump that will be under the 50G DT:

[IMG]http://i43.*******.com/r88bns.jpg[/IMG]

My question has to do with whether it is an option to have the refugium in the large far right chamber, rather than the very narrow center chamber. It seems like having the additional space for the fuge (the large chamber is about 7" inside width, vs a bit less than 3" inside width for the middle chamber).

The baffles are currently set up for a 1-2-3 high-medium-low overflow, which seems to keep the high water mark even with the highest baffle. So, I am hoping that I can get adequate flow for the return from the center chamber (which involves using a different pump, as the utility pump I have in the picture is too wide for the center chamber).

I'm hoping that I can use the sump as-is, without moving any of the baffles, simply by putting a suitable pump in that middle chamber. Then, I would modify the plumbing so that the drain pipe would split into separate valves that would then feed the 2 outside chambers as skimmer and fuge.

Would this work? Or are the baffles set up in such a way that I will not get adequate flow? Thanks in advance for advice.

The center chamber is too small to use for a return section. The baffle is too low, to use the right section as a fuge. The center section is too small for a practical fuge. The entire sump is too small to make a three section sump. Best would be strictly a two section sump, baffled accordingly, skimmer section and return section. Just sayin

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Curtis.H

You could put the skimmer and return pump in the right chamber and use the left as the fuge. Split off the drain and run part of it into the fuge and part of it into the center section (you probably don't want the flow thru your fuge to be the total pump capacity). Put some rock rubble in the center section for added filter capacity. If you have problems with mico bubbles from the skimmer being pumped into the display tank put a filter sock on the output of the skimmer and that should eliminate them.

That is the way I have my sump set up. The only difference is I use an external return pump.

Cannot put the skimmer and return pump in the same section. The skimmer needs a stable water level to operate properly. Water in the return section (with the return pump) will fluctuate with evaporation. Even an ATO cannot maintain a stable water level.

[JoshSD]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

The center chamber is too small to use for a return section. The baffle is too low, to use the right section as a fuge. The center section is too small for a practical fuge. The entire sump is too small to make a three section sump. Best would be strictly a two section sump, baffled accordingly, skimmer section and return section. Just sayin

Yeah it definitely seems sub-optimal (despite the " new and improved design"). But no fuge is better than a narrow one?

[JoshSD]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Cannot put the skimmer and return pump in the same section. The skimmer needs a stable water level to operate properly. Water in the return section (with the return pump) will fluctuate with evaporation. Even an ATO cannot maintain a stable water level.

Ah this makes sense. Thanks for the advice..........

[Lofty]

The design dosnt make any sense. There is really no point to the center chamber and the difference in the height of the baffles to the center is too much IMO. Where dis you get this sump? Is it DIY or was there a manufacturer?

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by JoshSD

Yeah it definitely seems sub-optimal (despite the " new and improved design"). But no fuge is better than a narrow one?

I would say yes if the fuge would be of no value. The design of this sump is poor, and it is too small. You need the water over the pump, that is more important than the fuge. Nothing works or lives, if your pump burns out. ATO or not.

[GPB]

I think the sump is being used out of necessity as it is readily available. It may well not be the best or most efficient design. I have a small return pump section in my undersized sump and mt ATO float switch keeps the level pretty stable. Within about 3/8" best as I can tell. Hardly enough of a difference to affect a skimmer.

The refugium part if it went into the part on the left might be too small , but is certainly large enough to grow a ball of cheato and maybe a little rubble. I've seen some guys refugia here and you would swear they were a display tank.

Simple is as simple does as Forrest Gump would say. High tech is great but from what I've seen and read on this sight good husbandry, maintenance regular water testing, and water changes are the lion's share of the battle.

Only a rookie's opinion. But then again I don't have $10,000 bucks to spend.

[GPB]

BTW: 18 Gallons isn't that small a sump for a 50G display system. I have a ten gallon sump on my 37G and I am really glad to have the extra 8 gallons or so of extra water volume.

[JoshSD]

Originally Posted by Lofty

The design dosnt make any sense. There is really no point to the center chamber and the difference in the height of the baffles to the center is too much IMO. Where dis you get this sump? Is it DIY or was there a manufacturer?

It's manufactured by CAD Lights and came with the 2012 version of their 50g "Artisan Cube" which I bought as a package. My budget doesnt currently allow its replacement.

Maybe if I reconfigure it.... Doesn't seem terribly difficult to remove and move the baffles and redo the silicone, but it's yet another project....thanks

[JoshSD]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

I would say yes if the fuge would be of no value. The design of this sump is poor, and it is too small. You need the water over the pump, that is more important than the fuge. Nothing works or lives, if your pump burns out. ATO or not.

I don't disagree that based on what I've read and seen that the design is poor....but it is what I have for now and needs to be put into service as-is or with inexpensive modification. I hear what youre saying about the pump, but is really hard for me to make the leap that a refugium volume to DT ratio is better at zero than the low value using one of the chambers. Sure, I'd like tooling into the garage and have all the room I might ever need in a dedicated tank, but I can't justify that on my first reef tank..... I'm really trying to stick to my budget, the Wife Acceptance Factor goes way up if I do. Thanks....

[Lofty]

Originally Posted by JoshSD

It's manufactured by CAD Lights and came with the 2012 version of their 50g "Artisan Cube" which I bought as a package. My budget doesnt currently allow its replacement.

Maybe if I reconfigure it.... Doesn't seem terribly difficult to remove and move the baffles and redo the silicone, but it's yet another project....thanks

Are there any suggestions from the manufactuer? It would seem that they had somthing in mind when the designed it that way. I would find out their recommended set up and go tht direction at least until you can take a different approach. You can still stuff live rock any where in there, it dosnt have to be a dedicated refugium.

I designed my sump with a center refuguim and realized later on that all the skimmers that were good for my tank size were too big for my inlet area, so I stuffed the area with more live rock and maxijet 1200 for my external reef octopus skimmer. Which is also an option for you if you are concerned about maintaining a consistant water level.

I think you can make that sump work for you. You just need to consider all your options, ie, possobly using an external skimmer, or getting creative about where you place your "refugium".

Good luck

[JoshSD]

Originally Posted by Lofty

Are there any suggestions from the manufactuer? It would seem that they had somthing in mind when the designed it that way. I would find out their recommended set up and go tht direction at least until you can take a different approach. You can still stuff live rock any where in there, it dosnt have to be a dedicated refugium.

I designed my sump with a center refuguim and realized later on that all the skimmers that were good for my tank size were too big for my inlet area, so I stuffed the area with more live rock and maxijet 1200 for my external reef octopus skimmer. Which is also an option for you if you are concerned about maintaining a consistant water level.

I think you can make that sump work for you. You just need to consider all your options, ie, possobly using an external skimmer, or getting creative about where you place your "refugium".

Good luck

Thanks.... a little extra luck never hurts.

I picked up the equipment from the manufacturer as they're about 90 miles from my home, and the gas & time was much cheaper than shipping. After visiting the "showroom" I got a strong feeling that the manufacturer is much more that - a tank builder - than a tank operator. I don't know that I can trust their recommendations over, say, yours ... So, I'm trying to gather the opinions I can, and will go forward from there. Thanks again.

[Curtis.H]

Originally Posted by JoshSD

Very interesting; I hadn't considered a configuration where the skimmer and return were in the same chamber. Thanks for the tips, this may be just what I needed. Have you been running this way for a while, and have you been satisfied with the performance?

It's a fairly new tank (about 1 month) but so far I'm happy with the results. The only problem I had when I first started it up was the micro bubbles from the skimmer getting pumped back into the display tank so I put the filter sock on the skimmer outlet to cure that. I have noticed that since the water has aged a bit and the skimmer is broken in there are very few, if any micro bubbles going out the skimmer output so I'm going to take the filter sock off this weekend when I do my maint.

And yes, your ATO should be in the last section (in this specific configuration).

[Curtis.H]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

The center chamber is too small to use for a return section. The baffle is too low, to use the right section as a fuge. The center section is too small for a practical fuge. The entire sump is too small to make a three section sump. Best would be strictly a two section sump, baffled accordingly, skimmer section and return section. Just sayin

The right side IS deep enough to use as a fuge even though the bafle on the right is low. Since you're pumping out of the left chamber the water in the right and center will be as deep as the baffle on the left side. (the water will flow over the low one on the right but must go up higher to get over the one on the left into the return section.

[Curtis.H]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Cannot put the skimmer and return pump in the same section. The skimmer needs a stable water level to operate properly. Water in the return section (with the return pump) will fluctuate with evaporation. Even an ATO cannot maintain a stable water level.

Why can't an ATO maintain a stable water level? Isn't that what they're meant to do? Mine has been working perfectly with absolutely no variation in water level in the return section.

Well I guess you could have a problem if you use a bucket for your top off water and run it dry, but then you're going to have other problems than just the skimmer not working properly.

[Curtis.H]

Originally Posted by JoshSD

It's manufactured by CAD Lights and came with the 2012 version of their 50g "Artisan Cube" which I bought as a package. My budget doesnt currently allow its replacement.

Maybe if I reconfigure it.... Doesn't seem terribly difficult to remove and move the baffles and redo the silicone, but it's yet another project....thanks

Be sure the baffles are held in place with silicon and that they were not glued in using acrylic glue. If they were glued in you're stuck with them in that configuration.