When to start GFO and GAC??

[symon_say]

Hi

My tank is just 2 month old and right now i just have the CUC and a pair of royal gramma, when is a good time to start using GFO and GAC.

I have a few HOB filters laying around from my freshwater tank that i can use, one is a cartridge filter, the other is a aquaclear 70, i like the aquaclear more for use with GFO and GAC.

My system is about 160 gls, how much carbon and gfo do i need, and how often should i change it, is the aquaclear 70 enough for the amount that i need or do i need something a little bigger like a aquaclear 110?? (i can get it for free).

[Thisseemsfishy]

I would go ahead and start using carbon, it's not going to hurt. I would check your levels or if you still have quite a bit a algae then use some GFO. I would make sure your cycle is completely over and things have settled down though. I would also watch using the HOB filets, they can be a nitrite/trate factory.

Carbon and GFO instructions are different per vendor. I change my carbon and GFO every 4 weeks. Hope this helps

[sporto0]

Originally Posted by Thisseemsfishy

I would go ahead and start using carbon, it's not going to hurt. I would check your levels or if you still have quite a bit a algae then use some GFO. I would make sure your cycle is completely over and things have settled down though. I would also watch using the HOB filets, they can be a nitrite/trate factory.

Carbon and GFO instructions are different per vendor. I change my carbon and GFO every 4 weeks. Hope this helps

What is an HOB filet? Sounds delicious!!! The OP is asking how much GFO or GAC to use on his 160g tank & he is using an aquaclear 70 as his reactor, why do you feel compelled to throw in the erroneous "nitrate factory" statement? Do you understand you need at the very least a sponge with exposure to the air in order to get nitrifying bacteria to colonize on it? Do you understand the nitrogen cycle at all? Using an aquaclear 70 with a bag of GAC or GFO will never, ever convert ammonia to nitrites to nitrates, ok????

OP, there is no set rule of thumb on how much of either to run per gallon, if you were experiencing an issue with high phosphates, you would want a larger portion of GFO, but again, how long it lasts & how much you use is going to be a personalized situation with your tank & it's nutrient load. One of the better sponsors on this site is BRS (Bulk Reef Supply) if you call them or e-mail them, they may have a better answer for you as far as a simple guideline of oz. per gallon, but again this will be a generalized per usage chart.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd start the GAC now and GFO if you get an algae problem or otherwise think that phosphate has become an issue.

Do you have any other phosphate export mechanisms already in place? Macroalgae? Skimming?

[symon_say]

I have skimmer and fuge with chaeto, my tank is fully running and kind off stable, I have ricordea in it and they have already splitted I ask about this cause I ask because I have some zoas frags on its way and I want to make my tank the best for then.

[Thisseemsfishy]

Originally Posted by sporto0

What is an HOB filet? Sounds delicious!!! The OP is asking how much GFO or GAC to use on his 160g tank & he is using an aquaclear 70 as his reactor, why do you feel compelled to throw in the erroneous "nitrate factory" statement? Do you understand you need at the very least a sponge with exposure to the air in order to get nitrifying bacteria to colonize on it? Do you understand the nitrogen cycle at all? Using an aquaclear 70 with a bag of GAC or GFO will never, ever convert ammonia to nitrites to nitrates, ok????

OP, there is no set rule of thumb on how much of either to run per gallon, if you were experiencing an issue with high phosphates, you would want a larger portion of GFO, but again, how long it lasts & how much you use is going to be a personalized situation with your tank & it's nutrient load. One of the better sponsors on this site is BRS (Bulk Reef Supply) if you call them or e-mail them, they may have a better answer for you as far as a simple guideline of oz. per gallon, but again this will be a generalized per usage chart.

Not going to start an argument, but sporto00 I think you may need to go back and do some reading. An Aquaclear 70 is a HOB filter, any kind of device like that has the potential to create problems if not cleaned often. I clean my filter sock every 2 days on my sump to stop this. This is where I get the "Nitrate/trite factory" comment. Not sure you should consider this a reactor.

Asking me if I understand the nitrogen cycle.... Lets start by asking if you do? Wet/dry setups are a thing of the past and not the best idea in salt? Maybe you were speaking of freshwater? A goal in saltwater is to use your rock and sand as the filtration to break down bacteria. Do a bit more reading before making statements like that. Please don't go giving reckless advice.





Symon_says,
One more thing. When you start adding GFO don't add a massive amount at once, it can burn your coral. I would start by adding 3/4 of the recommended dose then work up or adjusting as your levels change or become stable.

[Thisseemsfishy]

Originally Posted by symon_say

I have skimmer and fuge with chaeto, my tank is fully running and kind off stable, I have ricordea in it and they have already splitted I ask about this cause I ask because I have some zoas frags on its way and I want to make my tank the best for then.

I think your new tank is still settling, I would keep running the chaeto and skimmer and you should be fine. Don't overfeed and hopefully between the chaeto and a little GFO your phosphates will stay down. I would also think about doing away with the HOB filters, put a sock filter on your downspout to the sump and let that filter and polish the water.

[Saltydrip]

Here homes the stupid question?

What's GFO and GAC???

[symon_say]

Originally Posted by Thisseemsfishy

I think your new tank is still settling, I would keep running the chaeto and skimmer and you should be fine. Don't overfeed and hopefully between the chaeto and a little GFO your phosphates will stay down. I would also think about doing away with the HOB filters, put a sock filter on your downspout to the sump and let that filter and polish the water.

HOB is only going to be used for GFO and GAC without any sponge or mechanical filtration media, and regular maintenance will be made as media is changed, if i'm not wrong what makes HOB nitrate factories are the mechanical filtration media that holds detritus that goes by the nitrogen cycle resulting in the end product.

I don't think a mesh bag have enough surface to hold enough bacteria for a nitrate factory, and less probable because they will be complete changed for a dry mesh bi-weekly to a month. For me filter socks are more problem than benefit cause they need to be cleaned to often, i'm trying to set my tank on cruise control, so the less i have to do the better, that's why i want the HOB aquaclear, is easier to serve than a reactor, you just take on mesh bag out and put a new one in it and that's it.

A GFO/GAC reactor can build nitrate if it have a sponge and is not cleaned on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by Saltydrip

Here homes the stupid question?

What's GFO and GAC???

GFO = Granular Ferric oxide

GAC = Granular activated carbon

[sporto0]

[QUOTE=Thisseemsfishy;19716169]Not going to start an argument, but sporto00 I think you may need to go back and do some reading. An Aquaclear 70 is a HOB filter, any kind of device like that has the potential to create problems if not cleaned often. I clean my filter sock every 2 days on my sump to stop this. This is where I get the "Nitrate/trite factory" comment. Not sure you should consider this a reactor.

Asking me if I understand the nitrogen cycle.... Lets start by asking if you do? Wet/dry setups are a thing of the past and not the best idea in salt? Maybe you were speaking of freshwater? A goal in saltwater is to use your rock and sand as the filtration to break down bacteria. Do a bit more reading before making statements like that. Please don't go giving reckless advice.




Your not going to start an argument? Too late you already did, I will let your ignorant suggestion that I do some reading on the subject slide & nice job trying to turn the reckless advice giving around on me, I gave no advice except on his question, you offered incorrect advice about an HOB filet, remember?

Now it's time for you to put up or shut up, explain to me in detail what constitutes a nitrate factory to you & explain the difference between a live rock system only & a bio type filtration & then we'll see who's recklessly advising about something they think they know but have no experience with.

[Thisseemsfishy]

Incorrect advice? That is just your opinion. Ask just about anyone, a HOB filter or canister style setup can be a huge hazard. I used a wet/dry setup when I first started and changed my cotton filter out once a week, still not often enough.

A nitrate factory to me would be something that causes nitrates to grow that we can control. I believe that if mesh is used to clean the water and not changed often will cause a growth in nitrates. A live rock system IMO runs on natural chemistry to break down organic materials. A bio type filtration realize more on surface to air growth (bio ball, bio wheel) that breaks down the organics. Why put something in your system like that when it competes with the natural growth on LR.



Symon_say, sorry to derail your post.

[Sport507]

Originally Posted by Saltydrip

Here homes the stupid question?

What's GFO and GAC???

Reefers talk in secret codes. LOL It's not a stupid question, this should help.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1672798

[Saltydrip]

I love forum fights!!!

Just remember fellas, there is more than one way to skin a cat. There are so may variables to take into consideration with tanks. You need to remember that we are all going on experience. Some our own and some of others. No setup will EVER act the same as another. Even if they are exactly the same in every way. The second life starts, control goes out the window. We can only guid it in the right direction. If one guy has success with a setup and another fails it is just the way it goes. There doesn't need to be falt or blame. Just try again and except the outcome. Don't start the "nitrate factory" blame game!

[Thisseemsfishy]

Originally Posted by Saltydrip

I love forum fights!!!

Just remember fellas, there is more than one way to skin a cat. There are so may variables to take into consideration with tanks. You need to remember that we are all going on experience. Some our own and some of others. No setup will EVER act the same as another. Even if they are exactly the same in every way. The second life starts, control goes out the window. We can only guid it in the right direction. If one guy has success with a setup and another fails it is just the way it goes. There doesn't need to be falt or blame. Just try again and except the outcome. Don't start the "nitrate factory" blame game!

Ok..Well said

[Saltydrip]

Thnks sport. That is a big help!

I'm new to the community and I'm still acclimating!! Lol
This is a great forum with lots of good knoledge to soak up. My tank just got rebuilt after 2 years of neglect and is doing great thanks to all you fine folks!!

[Sport507]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

I'd start the GAC now and GFO if you get an algae problem or otherwise think that phosphate has become an issue.

Do you have any other phosphate export mechanisms already in place? Macroalgae? Skimming?

+1 best answer.





As for types of filtration used.

From the most primitive in tank (fiber floss carbon) canister airlift, to the most sophisticated system money can buy, live rock included.

Without proper husbandry, all can become nitrate factories. Some just take more maintenance than others. To single one out and give it the label “NITRATE FACTORY” is a bad rap. IMO

[sporto0]

Originally Posted by Thisseemsfishy

Incorrect advice? That is just your opinion. Ask just about anyone, a HOB filter or canister style setup can be a huge hazard. I used a wet/dry setup when I first started and changed my cotton filter out once a week, still not often enough.

A nitrate factory to me would be something that causes nitrates to grow that we can control. I believe that if mesh is used to clean the water and not changed often will cause a growth in nitrates. A live rock system IMO runs on natural chemistry to break down organic materials. A bio type filtration realize more on surface to air growth (bio ball, bio wheel) that breaks down the organics. Why put something in your system like that when it competes with the natural growth on LR.



Symon_say, sorry to derail your post.

Simon says, it's ok you didn't derail my post & your feeble attempt at explaining your idea of "nitrate factory" is kind of pathetic, first of all nitrates don't GROW, (lol) they are a by product of nitrites which are a by product of ammonia, which is what the nitrogen cycle is made up of. Nitrifying bacteria (2 types) colonize on bio materials, sponges, porous rock etc., there are aerobic bacteria & anerobic bacteria, that play key roles in cycling our tanks. The aerobic bacteria use highly oxygenated areas to convert ammonia to nitrites & then nitrites to nitrates, then anerobic bacteria convert some of these nitrates to nitrogen gas, now here is where the major difference lies, HOB filters & wet/dry filters basciaclly do not allow for anerobic bacteria to grow because they need an oxygen defecient environment to thrive, basically only porous live rock can provide these conditions. Now that I have thoroughly confused you, let me simplify, nitrates do not grow, appear out of thin air or come from filters, you must have a nitrogen & ammonia source in order to end up with nitrates, these come from fish waste or uneaten food etc., so any tank with a larger load on it, will produce high nitrates as a rule, we control nitrates & phosphates in many ways but our main exportation method is clearly regular water changes. Now the difference between a tank that has the same load upon it, with porous live rock filtration only & a tank using a wet/dry bio ball filtration only, will be a higher concentration of nitrates in the wet/dry sytem, not more nitrates, they won't produce more, they just don't allow for nitrogen gas conversion like porous rock can do in small increments, so your wrong, filters need cleaning but if your nitrates are off the chart, it's because you've overloaded your system or slacked on your maintenance & not because of the equiptment.
Simon says I'm done.

[Sport507]

Originally Posted by Saltydrip

Thnks sport. That is a big help!

I'm new to the community and I'm still acclimating!! Lol
This is a great forum with lots of good knoledge to soak up. My tank just got rebuilt after 2 years of neglect and is doing great thanks to all you fine folks!!

Your welcome!
Good luck and keep up the research.

[symon_say]

This has became kind of a war, and now have to be harsh with each other, this si for learning purpose and a better way to tell things might make the others realize they are wrong, Sporto0 from what i know your right (new on saltwater but have a few years in freshwater), nitrate don't grow is a by product of the nitrogen cycle that by the way is not complete in freshwater cause you don't get the part were nitrate is build into nitrogen (that's why is called nitrogen cycle), in saltwater given the porous rock you have places were anaerobic bacteria can grow and complete the cycle to certain point.

What make a wet/dry, HOB or canister filter a so called nitrate factory are not the filter system itself is the detritus they trap, since they are traped they can be consume by any organism in the system and the only way they have to disappear is be building into ammonia, then nitrite and finally nitrate, in a berlin system detritus flow free, are trap by the skimmer or eaten by the CUC so there is no nitrate building from detritus cause they are consume by the system and the nitrate you get are from all species pee and poo.

I have a friend with the same setup and he put filter floss from time to time to polish the water but he just put the filter floss a few days a month, that cleans the water really well.

Back to the carbon and GFO, BRS recommend ~2 cups of each, given that my tank is just 2-3 months old i can start with just half of that to see how it works???

[sporto0]

Symon, yes you are right about the berlin system vs wet/dry analysis, but my main argument is against calling somethin a nitrate factory when in fact it will not produce "more" nitrates than a Berlin system, just a higher concentration & whereas you choose to rely on a CUC & skimmer to handle the detritus, I just clean out my filters & I know that gunk is gone, I never advocate one way or another, there is no one right way, I just take exception to equiptment being blamed for laziness.

Your question about the GFO, you can start with less if you want, do you test for phosphates? This is the easiest way to know if GFO is working for you & how much or how long you should keep it in the reactor, in other words if your phosphates go down substantially, then you are using a good amount, conversely if they continue to rise or start to rise again, you know you need more or to change out the old stuff.

[Thisseemsfishy]

Originally Posted by symon_say

What make a wet/dry, HOB or canister filter a so called nitrate factory are not the filter system itself is the detritus they trap, since they are traped they can be consume by any organism in the system and the only way they have to disappear is be building into ammonia, then nitrite and finally nitrate, in a berlin system detritus flow free, are trap by the skimmer or eaten by the CUC so there is no nitrate building from detritus cause they are consume by the system and the nitrate you get are from all species pee and poo.

This was my point and sporto0 totally missed it.

Sporto0 your Symon says phrase....I was referring to his name when I used it, not trying to be cute.



Symon, I would start there and see what it does to your levels in a few days, adjust from there. Again I only change mine about once a month.

[sporto0]

Trapped detritus, no matter where it is trapped produces ammonia, where it accumulates has nothing to do with it, your bacteria still must convert it to nitrates, they don't grow or are not produced by filters, "nitrate factory" is a misleading term thrown about by everyone for any piece of equiptment without any explanation, please stop doing so.

[sporto0]

Here is a picture of my reef tank, I employ 2 wet/dry filters an HOB Aquaclear, a sump, a refugium & 2 skimmers. Some of us old timers know it's not the equiptment that causes high nutrient problems, we have learned over the years through experience not to overload our systems, especially a reef tank.

I do not now advocate to anyone new to use a wet/dry system as your main biological filter, advances in the hobby have allowed you to start without them, HOB filters on the other hand are still excellent for mechanical & chemical (reactor) filtration. Please understand that there is no one right way to do this & try & keep your advice objective. Happy Reefing!!!!!!

[Sport507]

I run these on my tank.

http://www.amazon.com/Aquarium-Rapid...6058080&sr=8-1 I use the bioballs.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/...-refugium.html The 19” with light.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/...ct-bh2000.html

Pic just taken with cell phone.

[sporto0]

Nice Tank Sport!!!! Well done sir.