jynxtrix's Forcibly Propogated Haddoni Anemone

[jynxtrix]

Alright, Since it has been pushed and pushed, and I'm tired of this subject thread jacking another person's thread, despite attempts to change the subject back to the original topic, I have started my own.
I'm not particularly sure if I really wanna do this (plus I hate having to host photos)'
Now, that being said, If you come to look, cool, if you come to post ideas and suggestions, or provide insight, even better, but if all you can do is criticize, please, go start your own thread and complain there. All others, please enjoy.

Here's what I started with, this was about 4 months ago.



and another picture for reference


when I purchased it, It was shoved in a 29 gallon biocube with pretty much no space to move. the owner had to separate it because it ate everything it could reach. The photos don't do justice to it's size, when it was hungry, it would lay relatively flat and was easily over 14 inches across, however, I did not realize that when I purchased it because it didn't have space to fully open inside the biocube.

Now, I don't have photo's of me cutting it, as my hands were a little full, but basically all I did was split it down the middle with a freshly sharpened butcher knife. I rinsed it, gave it a dip, and returned it to my tank in these breeder nets. The lights were kept relatively low for the first few days so as not to shock them by putting them so much closer to my light fixtures. they basically looked like this for the first week and a half.



here it is the larger one 30 days after being cut



And here is the smaller one 30 days after it was cut



I haven't taken any more of the larger one, but here's a cell phone pic of the smaller one about week and a half to 2 weeks ago.



As you can see, they seem to like to hold themselves in that tulip shape while healing. The smaller one is only slightly smaller, but because it wasn't an even cut, it has slowed down healing considerably.

I will post current pics this evening if I can, but the larger one has healed and is growing new material to fill in the piece that was cut out, the little one is still doing the tulip thing off and on, and was balling itself up and rolling around the tank from time to time. Due to concern for my other inhabitants, I could not continue to allow that to go on. As mentioned before, if you would like to participate in the discussion please do, I welcome any input. If you came to flame, then please, move on. What's done is done as far as these guys goes, and bad attitudes aren't gonna help me with the recovery in the least.

[garygb]

Are the haddonies eating yet? I would assume feeding them would be a good idea as soon as they will accept food. I hope those guys make it and eventually thrive for you. As I'm sure you've heard, with that species, fragging is a death sentence in significant percentage.

[jynxtrix]

picking up where we left off....

Originally Posted by BonsaiNut

I would like to see this, since you offered. You have to understand that no one who has ever claimed to do what you are claiming has ever shared any evidence. They just say they have done it, and then disappear. Numerous people have tried, and as far as I know, the failure rate for those who are willing to admit it is 100%. There is no market for propagated S. haddonis - if it were as easy as you are suggesting, I would assume that there would be haddonis for sale all over the place. But I HOPE you have been successful and that perhaps you are doing something different from all the others. So share your methods and successes, and hopefully it will open new doors for the rest of us!

And just to be clear, this was NOT by any means easy. Taking out a knife and cutting it was easy, but it squirmed and I missed (so maybe it wasn't that easy after all). HOWEVER, all the care and attention it has required as far as feeding, lighting (and not over lighting it), current adjustment, and making it comfortable enough to continue healing have been far from easy. They have been time consuming, nerve wracking, and very frustrating at times.
Remember, I'm only a little over 2 months into this experiment, there is still plenty of room for disaster, and I am fully aware of this, but if this really is the only proof provided, then I think that bears a little room for some credit, and a little less heckling from the peanut galleries. And if any one has any doubts as to the viability of this thread, or these pictures, they should PM Chimone on this forum. He's seen my tank in person more than once and can vouch for what I'm doing.

[jynxtrix]

Originally Posted by garygb

Are the haddonies eating yet? I would assume feeding them would be a good idea as soon as they will accept food. I hope those guys make it and eventually thrive for you. As I'm sure you've heard, with that species, fragging is a death sentence in significant percentage.

The large one feeds normally now. Because the small ones mouth is so tiny, I've been forced to resort to feeding it mysis shrimp every few days from a syringe. But all in all, they are coming along much better than the masses seem to think they were capable of.

[Toddrtrex]

Originally Posted by jynxtrix

...

the little one is still doing the tulip thing off and on, and was balling itself up and rolling around the tank from time to time. Due to concern for my other inhabitants, I could not continue to allow that to go on. ....

So what happened to the smaller one??

[jynxtrix]

Originally Posted by Toddrtrex

So what happened to the smaller one??

I put it back in the breeder net at the top of the tank where the current isn't as strong, and decreased the number of hours a day I light the tank by about 30%. It's been being fed mysis shrimp for the last week and is doing fine, just healing more slowly because it's mouth is smaller, and it has less surface area to provide for photosynthesis. I suspect that even if my cuts had been perfectly in half, it would still been a long road to recovery, because these nem's just don't heal as quickly as their smaller cousins.

[Jamie1210]

very interesting...wondering how long you've had the original haddoni before you cut it?

[jynxtrix]

Something has also just occurred to me, and that is my lighting. during the majority of this I was running 2 10k t5ho's, and 2 red t5ho's (I can't remember the rating), until two weeks ago when I changed the red bulbs over to actinic's. I wonder if that may have had a slowing effect on the photosynthesis occurring within the anemone's zooxanthellaeand and zoochlorellae living within it and feeding it. I mean, if red bulbs encourage plant growth (of course through photosynthesis), then why would it not stand to reason it would have the same effect on the anemone? I think I'm going to go home and change the bulb closest to the nem back to red, perhaps this is the reason for my luck so far, seeing as how I doubt many marine aquarist's would use red t5's in their tanks.

[jynxtrix]

Originally Posted by Jamie1210

very interesting...wondering how long you've had the original haddoni before you cut it?

2 1/2 months, enough time for it to acclimate, get comfortable and eat several of my wife and I's favorite fish.

I must admit that my decision to propagate was quite less than honorable. Although I had actually been contemplating doing it for about 2 weeks, simply because of it's size, it was was coming home to find my cleaner wrasse hanging out of it's mouth (r.i.p. slinky) that made the decision final.

[jynxtrix]

Alright, So I came home and swapped my bulbs. Pardon the fact that the little nem is a little on the fluffy side, he always does that when the lights first come on.

Here's an overall of what the tanks setup is

Shot at 2012-02-15

Here's the little Nem

Shot at 2012-02-15


Shot at 2012-02-15

And here's the big nem

Shot at 2012-02-15

And here's a closeup of the area that is growing in to fill in what was cut out.


Shot at 2012-02-15

And a shot where my dopey clown isn't trying to defend it


Shot at 2012-02-15

I think two of the major things I probably did differently than most is the light
(I changed the light about 45 min ago, and he's already changing color and fluffing up more actively, so I'll keep everyone updated), and the fact that as soon as I felt they were ready (about a week), I started putting my clowns in with them so they could clean them and pick off any dead stuff.

I wish I had kept better track of all this. Had I known there would be so much fuss over it, I surely would have, lol.

[Toddrtrex]

Did they move to the rocks, or did you put them there? S. haddoni is a sandbed dwelling anemone.

[jynxtrix]

Todd, the large one put itself in a large hole in the rock. Originally that rock was on top of my sand bed, but I moved it up so that I could lay down some lace rock for foundation. I actually figured that he would detach and move lower, but he's been there for three weeks or so now with no signs of wanting to move.

[Chimone]

Hey so jynx, you figured out what you're doing with the little one? I know a 20 gallon that could use a nem....just sayin

Also I can attest to everything he is saying, Ive seen them in person. Growth on the big one is coming along nicely and looks to be doing very well.

[jynxtrix]

Originally Posted by Chimone

Hey so jynx, you figured out what you're doing with the little one? I know a 20 gallon that could use a nem....just sayin

Also I can attest to everything he is saying, Ive seen them in person. Growth on the big one is coming along nicely and looks to be doing very well.

Thanks for the chime in bro! As far as a new home, not until I see some growth like I'm seeing on the big one, but if this evening is any indication (and I don't wanna get cocky) the red lights are all the difference. "Fluffy" as I have dubbed him this evening is feeling much more active. Hopefully he settles down and starts using some of that energy to finish healing. I took my smallest clown (about an inch and a quarter) and put him back in with fluffy about 3 hours ago, and he has been kneading and cleaning him since. I don't know how the lighting possibility slipped my observation before, or the clowns devoted nature, but I think between the two, this is it. And if you are willing to keep up the experiment should this job drag me overseas then I'd be glad to turn him over to you, I just don't want him to go somewhere where he won't be appreciated, or where lack of care might prove this experiment a waste (I am after all a realist, and loathe proving pessimist's right, lol), if he's anything like his big brother, it'll be another month before he's ready to be called "healed" and I don't want the stress of a change in tanks to be the death of him. But, when I get him back on solid foods, and if your tank still has a home for him, you'll be the first to know.

[Chimone]

Originally Posted by jynxtrix

(I am after all a realist, and loathe proving pessimist's right, lol),

Dont take the interwebs too seriously. I've realized after ten years of forums that all it take is an opinion from someone with 10 billion forum posts and that opinion overtakes all common sense in the masses. Because someone couldn't accomplish something with their individual setup does not mean that it is now impossible and noone else should even attempt it.

Keep up the good work

[stickleback]

A very interesting thread.

hope it all works out, will be watching closely

[phender]

FWIW, in plant culture red light is used to encourage blooming, blue light is used to encourage growth.
It is interesting that your anemones seem to be reacting positively to your red lights since red light is usually not considered as important in marine tanks.

From what it looks like your carpets didn't "complete the circle" with the cut edges healing together like BTAs do, but the cut edges have healed giving a healed anemone half circle. Is that correct?

Just to give you a heads up, when I cut my carpet (mertens, not haddoni) the piece that survived healed and grew for about 6 months and then sort of hit a plateau where it looked pretty good, but not 100% of what it was. It stayed that way for about a year, and then about 18 months after the cut it started going downhill and I couldn't save it.
Anemones are very slow to show when they are in trouble. Keep a close one on yours and make adjustments quickly because be the time you notice something is wrong it may already be too late.

Good luck.

[jynxtrix]

Originally Posted by phender

FWIW, in plant culture red light is used to encourage blooming, blue light is used to encourage growth.
It is interesting that your anemones seem to be reacting positively to your red lights since red light is usually not considered as important in marine tanks.

From what it looks like your carpets didn't "complete the circle" with the cut edges healing together like BTAs do, but the cut edges have healed giving a healed anemone half circle. Is that correct?

Just to give you a heads up, when I cut my carpet (mertens, not haddoni) the piece that survived healed and grew for about 6 months and then sort of hit a plateau where it looked pretty good, but not 100% of what it was. It stayed that way for about a year, and then about 18 months after the cut it started going downhill and I couldn't save it.
Anemones are very slow to show when they are in trouble. Keep a close one on yours and make adjustments quickly because be the time you notice something is wrong it may already be too late.

Good luck.

Well, like I tried to show in the picture of the larger one, it healed in the half circle shape first, during which time it held itself in that tulip shape seen in the pics, then started growing new material to bridge the gap between, the little one is lagging behind, but I'm happy with the progress so far, and will try to keep updates coming.

[bradleym]

Jynxtrix, thank you for putting this info up. If it goes well, good documentation will be very interesting and useful to many on this forum. And if it goes badly in a few months, it will be an invaluable lesson to those wanting to try it. It is evident that you are not going at this half-heartedly, so if it does not work out then your detailed updates will be essential in showing that it is not for lack of trying.

Either way this thread will likely be referenced several times in the future, so please spare us no details. Good luck.

[ousnakebyte]

Is the little one still in a bare-bottom tank? As pointed out earlier, haddoni is a sand-dwelling anemone. I'm wondering if you should give it a place to "feel more secure." As many on here know, I'm a big advocate of putting sand anemones (S. haddoni, LTAs) in capped PVC tubes filled partly with sand. Then you can keep them more easily in a bare bottom or shallow sand tank.

But, I also tend to subscribe to the, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra. So, opinions from anyone else? Would you favor getting the small one in some sort of sand bed (tank sand or pvc tube) or leave it be? Just wondering. Good luck with them.

Cheers
Mike

[jynxtrix]

yes, it is in the breeder net at the top of the tank for the time being. I am thinking seriously about putting him back in the tank, but I have a quite a few corals that he could easily destroy now if he up and decided to go back into tumbleweed mode.

I actually tried putting sand in my breeder net too, but it was far too fine, and literally just poured straight through it.

For the time being, the only time it appears upset is during feeding, when the lights first come on, and when I have to swap it into my spare net to clean the other. Other than that it seems okay, so I try to disturb it as little as possible.

[BonsaiNut]

Originally Posted by Chimone

Dont take the interwebs too seriously. I've realized after ten years of forums that all it take is an opinion from someone with 10 billion forum posts and that opinion overtakes all common sense in the masses. Because someone couldn't accomplish something with their individual setup does not mean that it is now impossible and noone else should even attempt it.

You haven't been following the discussion, so it is interesting that you feel qualified to pass judgement on those people who have. Regardless of the numbers of people who have tried to do this (and failed - at the cost of their animals' lives), you have science, as well as the opinion of the most experienced anemone scientist in the world, against you. I'm not trying to flame you - but your friend isn't even successful yet and you are already crowing. No one WANTS you to fail... but to do the same thing as many other people, and expect different results...

I hope it works out ok. For your friend's benefit, as well as the benefit of the anemone.

[BonsaiNut]

And just for reference:

To prevent taking animals from the wild, some well-intentioned people propose cutting sea anemones in pieces to propagate them artificially. I am astonished how often I receive such proposals! It appears that only (or nearly only) anemones that naturally divide will predictably survive this treatment. Despite a persistent belief otherwise, anemones of most species do not reproduce asexually: only two of the 10 species that are natural hosts to anemonefishes do, and that may be a pretty good estimate of the prevalence of that ability among all anemones - 20% of species.

Perhaps the myth that division is how anemones reproduce is due in part to the feeling that anemones are "primitive" and division is a "primitive" attribute (in fact, anemones have been on earth far longer than humans, so can be argued to be more evolved!), and in part because pests such as *Aiptasia* are many peoples' ideas of a "typical" anemone. In fact, they are so prevalent and common precisely because they have that unusual ability - most of the 1000 or so species of anemones are less conspicuous because they do not occur in such densities at least in part because they lack that ability.

Another possible source of the misconception about anemone division is the practice of fragging corals. Clearly anemones and scleractinian corals are closely related. But that does not mean they can be treated identically. All anemones are solitary (even those that divide separate entirely once they have formed separate bodies, whereas polyps of corals in a colony remain physically attached to one another after they have arisen asexually). So fragging is dividing colonies (groups of polyps) into smaller colonies (fewer polyps per piece). By contrast, cutting an anemone into pieces is analogous to cutting you into two or more pieces; and for anemones of most species, the result would be precisely the same -- we would not have numerous identical yous, we would have no you.

Associated with an ability in some anemones to divide (into two or many pieces, depending on the species) is an ability to heal; obviously healing is necessary for regeneration. And although the reverse is not necessarily the case, it seems that animals that do not normally divide also have poor healing ability. So the prospects are dim for propagating anemones of species that do not naturally divide by cutting them into two or more pieces. One person who wrote to me rather triumphantly with a proposal to reduce collection from nature by cutting anemones in pieces as a means of artificial propagation was so pleased because he had cut in half two anemones of a species that does not reproduce asexually (as I recall, it was a species of *Stichodactyla*), and although both halves of one had died, both of the other had survived. So he started with two and ended with two, each half as large as the originals. I failed to see promise in this approach.

And even for the two species of anemonefish host anemones that seem to divide in nature, differences from place to place make me think there may be more than one species of what we think is a single species of each or there may be differences among individuals. Thus, even an anemone that is thought to be able to propagate asexually (*Entacmaea quadricolor*, the bubble-tip, and *Heteractis magnifica*, the "Ritteri" anemone) may die from being cut up.

Daphne Fautin

Daphne G. Fautin
Professor, Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
Curator, Natural History Museum and Biodiversity Research Center
Haworth Hall
University of Kansas

[Toddrtrex]

Originally Posted by ousnakebyte

....

But, I also tend to subscribe to the, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra. So, opinions from anyone else? Would you favor getting the small one in some sort of sand bed (tank sand or pvc tube) or leave it be? Just wondering. Good luck with them.

Cheers
Mike

In the 15+ years of keeping S. haddonis, they have only left the sandbed when something was wrong/off. In one case, up on the rocks to get more light (( I don't count this one, since it was about 20 years ago, under NO florescents, and it struggled the whole time -- want to say it was my first anemone )), and when it was being irritated. Back when I had my mated pair of clarkiis they had this nasty habit of digging up the sand around an S. haddoni. In turn the anemone started to climb up the rocks.

While I wouldn't remove the ones in this thread from the rocks if attached, I would at least try to figure out why it is there -- since that isn't a normal state. Now, if it wasn't attached, I would move it -- either with a full sandbed, or your method.

[Chimone]

Originally Posted by BonsaiNut

You haven't been following the discussion, so it is interesting that you feel qualified to pass judgement on those people who have. Regardless of the numbers of people who have tried to do this (and failed - at the cost of their animals' lives), you have science, as well as the opinion of the most experienced anemone scientist in the world, against you. I'm not trying to flame you - but your friend isn't even successful yet and you are already crowing. No one WANTS you to fail... but to do the same thing as many other people, and expect different results...

I hope it works out ok. For your friend's benefit, as well as the benefit of the anemone.

Pretty ignorant statement on your part.

I have been following this discussion, in fact more so than you have. I work with jynx. We talk about this all day so in fact, Im more involved in this than you are. I've been to his house to watch the progress and am very interested in the outcome.

A lot of people are scared to post things they are trying online in fear of the forum nazis flaming away. I was merely reassuring him to keep on the right track and not worry about what someone else may say in the negative. The deed is done..... no going back, and so far his results look promising. What will happen in the future who knows, but he is staying positive and giving it the best care he can.