How do I NOT make LEDs shimmer?

[csmfish]

Sorry folks, shimmer drives "me" batty!

[rAzOr714]

Sell them and get t5s


*rAzOr*

[gpx1200]

shimmer is caused by the ripples on the water, if you can get the top of the watter totaly smooth their will be no shimmer. i have a 20 g mantis tank that has cree leds and a calm surface and theirs no shimmer unless you agitate the waters surface

[tkeracer619]

Its caused by point source light passing through a varying surface.

T5 will cast shadows (which some confuse for shimmer) but they do not produce shimmer.

LEDs can produce a really funky banding flashy thing on the sand bed.

[tkeracer619]

Its caused by point source light passing through a varying surface.

T5 will cast shadows (which some confuse for shimmer) but they do not produce shimmer.

LEDs can produce a really funky banding flashy thing on the sand bed.

[karsseboom]

They call it the disco ball effect.

[csmfish]

Originally Posted by karsseboom

They call it the disco ball effect.

I call it eye bugging headache effect, though, it is cool when your walking around the room not looking at the tank.

Damn, I guess T5's it is. And I so wanted to jump on the LED bandwagon

[JasonBJones]

Here is a great product I have started using. http://www.berlinwallpaper.com/dcfix/Transparent.htm

Costs $15 shipped.

Here are the readings of the person who discovered it using a LUX meter:

w/o Film (x10^3):
1=445
2=480
3=506
4=462
5=466
6=432
7=451
8=446
9=437
10=458
11=464

w/film (x10^3)
1=425 (-4.5%)
2=465 (-3.1%)
3=496 (-2%)
4=446 (-3.5%)
5=443 (-5%)
6=414 (-4.2%)
7=416 (-7.8%)
8=411 (-7.8%)
9=413 (-5.3%)
10=430 (-6.1%)
11= 432 (-6.8%)
Total Avg light loss=about 5%

Before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqiddxYiEn4

After: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_aST...eature=related

Videos are taken on my wife's nano tank with a 13 led fixture. Shimmer is now much more like a halide.

[NatureNerd]

Originally Posted by csmfish

Sorry folks, shimmer drives "me" batty!

What part is troublesome to you? Varying color, lines of greater light intensity, chaotic motion,...

MH's have a much different shimmer look than LED's as there is usually only two point sources of light and both are the same "color". In this case you get longer, slow moving "white" shimmer lines which most people really like.

The opposite case is when you put many point sources seperated in space and at different colors, like some DIY LED systems, this can result in a very chaotic shimmer with varying color, ie the disco-ball look. Of course the higher you mount a grouping of LED's the more they start to look like a single point source and the shimmer looks more natural. LED systems that group LED's close together also try to emulate a smaller number of point sources and usually aren't too bad as far as a complex, dizzying shimmer effects.

Take a look at a nice MH system before you commit to T5's. You might find out you like "nice" shimmer. All three technologies work well to grow corals you just need to find out what works for you. We are all different, I will always pick lighting that gives a shimmer effect but I have seen amazing T5 tanks too and a few folks just don't like any shimmer.

.

[Meshmez]

Originally Posted by csmfish

Sorry folks, shimmer drives "me" batty!

as stated by some others, if you have the chance try some different spacing, color combos, and optics. also, if you are running a DIY do you have open leds or optics? before i put optics on mine i thought the shimmer was giving me headaches, turns out it was the direct led light hitting my eye that was bugging me, even though most of it was shielded. if i caught even a second of direct light my head would hurt for a little while. I was about ready to ditch them. I ended up putting optics on and the problem went away. Also if its a DIY system mess with the intensities of your different colors. I have noticed you can make them "blend" better by doing this.

[karsseboom]

Originally Posted by Meshmez

as stated by some others, if you have the chance try some different spacing, color combos, and optics. also, if you are running a DIY do you have open leds or optics? before i put optics on mine i thought the shimmer was giving me headaches, turns out it was the direct led light hitting my eye that was bugging me, even though most of it was shielded. if i caught even a second of direct light my head would hurt for a little while. I was about ready to ditch them. I ended up putting optics on and the problem went away. Also if its a DIY system mess with the intensities of your different colors. I have noticed you can make them "blend" better by doing this.

The others told him to use mh.

[csmfish]

I like to have a stright light with no shimmer for when I look into the tank at my critters and such. I dont like them changing colors and or brightness, its distracting from the tanks inhabitants. While sitting on the couch, it also makes me dizzy and hurts my eyes a little. Now, like said, if I am doing other things around the house and see the tank shimmering out of the corner of my eye, its kind of cool.

I might have to incorporate two sets of lights. LEDS for when I am not at home and halides/t5's when I am. I did not really like halide shimmer, but, thats a lot less than LEDs for the most part, lol.

[NatureNerd]

Originally Posted by csmfish

I like to have a stright light with no shimmer for when I look into the tank at my critters and such. I dont like them changing colors and or brightness, its distracting from the tanks inhabitants. While sitting on the couch, it also makes me dizzy and hurts my eyes a little. Now, like said, if I am doing other things around the house and see the tank shimmering out of the corner of my eye, its kind of cool.

I might have to incorporate two sets of lights. LEDS for when I am not at home and halides/t5's when I am. I did not really like halide shimmer, but, thats a lot less than LEDs for the most part, lol.

Get T5's and be done with it. They work.

[power boat jim]

In the for what its worth column at this point, raising the leds higher off the water will erase the disco effect and lessen the shimmer a good bit.

[advancebc29]

Originally Posted by JasonBJones

Here is a great product I have started using. http://www.berlinwallpaper.com/dcfix/Transparent.htm

Costs $15 shipped.

Here are the readings of the person who discovered it using a LUX meter:

w/o Film (x10^3):
1=445
2=480
3=506
4=462
5=466
6=432
7=451
8=446
9=437
10=458
11=464

w/film (x10^3)
1=425 (-4.5%)
2=465 (-3.1%)
3=496 (-2%)
4=446 (-3.5%)
5=443 (-5%)
6=414 (-4.2%)
7=416 (-7.8%)
8=411 (-7.8%)
9=413 (-5.3%)
10=430 (-6.1%)
11= 432 (-6.8%)
Total Avg light loss=about 5%

Before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqiddxYiEn4

After: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_aST...eature=related

Videos are taken on my wife's nano tank with a 13 led fixture. Shimmer is now much more like a halide.

+100

or just standard diamond pattern diffuser from HD. I have tested the stuff above and it is really nice

[Meshmez]

Originally Posted by karsseboom

The others told him to use mh.

Haha! I guess they did.. guess I was thinking or a different thread.

Originally Posted by csmfish

I might have to incorporate two sets of lights. LEDS for when I am not at home and halides/t5's when I am. I did not really like halide shimmer, but, thats a lot less than LEDs for the most part, lol.

I would think this would be really hard on your corals, changing spectrum and intensity all the time.

I like the shimmer because to me (and I have had others look at my tank and comment the same) it looks much more "natural" obviously the disco ball effect isnt, but once you get it dialed in with a good blend of light I think the shimmer looks more like what you would see snorkeling.

But hey, to each his own! you may be able to supplement leds with a couple T5's to keep most of the cost savings of the LED and washout the shimmer, I havent tried it though.

[csmfish]

Originally Posted by power boat jim

In the for what its worth column at this point, raising the leds higher off the water will erase the disco effect and lessen the shimmer a good bit.

Always good to get all the input, least as long as it is posotive (for the most part), lol, so, thanks, will make a note of that.

Originally Posted by advancebc29

+100

or just standard diamond pattern diffuser from HD. I have tested the stuff above and it is really nice

I was thinking of that but afraid to lose PAR, but, hey, dont know until you try, right?

Originally Posted by Meshmez

Haha! I guess they did.. guess I was thinking or a different thread.



I would think this would be really hard on your corals, changing spectrum and intensity all the time.

I like the shimmer because to me (and I have had others look at my tank and comment the same) it looks much more "natural" obviously the disco ball effect isnt, but once you get it dialed in with a good blend of light I think the shimmer looks more like what you would see snorkeling.

But hey, to each his own! you may be able to supplement leds with a couple T5's to keep most of the cost savings of the LED and washout the shimmer, I havent tried it though.

Well, thats the thing. I wasnt planning on blasting them with LEDs.


I was thinking of getting those T8 tube LEDs for the 72, just a row. Should be enough light to make them think there is daylight, then, when I am home, blast them with MH or the T5's. As far as spectrum change, I dont know if they would react negativley or not.

[Meshmez]

Originally Posted by csmfish

Well, thats the thing. I wasnt planning on blasting them with LEDs.


I was thinking of getting those T8 tube LEDs for the 72, just a row. Should be enough light to make them think there is daylight, then, when I am home, blast them with MH or the T5's. As far as spectrum change, I dont know if they would react negativley or not.

What im saying though is you may be able to get away with using LED's instead of MH alltogether, and then use a couple T5's to help blend and wash out the shimmer, either completely or down to an acceptable level. This way you would still get rid of the heat, power usage, and bulb changes related to MH. Otherwise im not sure what the point of having the LED's would be at all. MH should be more than adequate for "making them think there is daylight"

[JasonBJones]

I wanted to add a bit to my comments below, I wrote them in a hurry and it kind of comes out looking like a shill for the company.

I am with the OP, I hate the shimmer created by LEDs. I love just about everything else about LEDs, but that single thing has kept me from changing to them. I recently found a thread on another site where this material was being used and substantially eliminates the disco ball effect while only marginally reducing light intensity. I decided to try it on my wife's tank and have been extremely happy with the results, enough so that I will now run LEDs on my next tank.

I understand people's concerns about losing some light intensity. This was a valid concern with LEDs 4 or 5 years ago, but not today. Modern, high-powered LEDs are generally too strong and have caused many a hobbyist to bleach their coral. Besides, at least according to the numbers I posted below, the light output is hardly diminished.

Just wanted to throw some additional thoughts out there.

Originally Posted by JasonBJones

Here is a great product I have started using. http://www.berlinwallpaper.com/dcfix/Transparent.htm

Costs $15 shipped.

Here are the readings of the person who discovered it using a LUX meter:

w/o Film (x10^3):
1=445
2=480
3=506
4=462
5=466
6=432
7=451
8=446
9=437
10=458
11=464

w/film (x10^3)
1=425 (-4.5%)
2=465 (-3.1%)
3=496 (-2%)
4=446 (-3.5%)
5=443 (-5%)
6=414 (-4.2%)
7=416 (-7.8%)
8=411 (-7.8%)
9=413 (-5.3%)
10=430 (-6.1%)
11= 432 (-6.8%)
Total Avg light loss=about 5%

Before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqiddxYiEn4

After: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_aST...eature=related

Videos are taken on my wife's nano tank with a 13 led fixture. Shimmer is now much more like a halide.

[csmfish]

Well, here is another thing I noticed.

My friend has a 20 something JBJ tank with 6 or so LEDs on it. He has them on what looks to be a 3/4" thick heatsink and it is HOT!! I ask myself, where is the heat savings compared to a T5? Neither the bulb in any place gets that hot nor does the ballast. Now, if I condensed a, oh, say, a 48" T5 and ballast into the same space, it "might" be as hot (doubt it). So, where is the heat savings everyone is talking about? That turned me off.

So, now, we are down to life time of lights. Hmmm, okay, 5 years? That "might" pay for itself.

Wattage, hmmmm....... Well, everyone seems to feel the need to go with the 150w units, so, not saving electricity there. Well, that is if I go with straight on/off which is all I have now.


Looks like T5 technology is still in the picture, though, I AM still trying to get to the dark side somehow, lol. Being a techie junk head and very practical dude, there is a lot of conflict of interest going on up in the ol cranial cavity. Throw in the shimmer issue and wow, were talking necessary visits to my shrink, ha ha.

[karsseboom]

Why not just use t5 and no metal halide and no LEDs.

[Reverend Reefer]

Originally Posted by csmfish

Well, here is another thing I noticed.

My friend has a 20 something JBJ tank with 6 or so LEDs on it. He has them on what looks to be a 3/4" thick heatsink and it is HOT!! I ask myself, where is the heat savings compared to a T5? Neither the bulb in any place gets that hot nor does the ballast. Now, if I condensed a, oh, say, a 48" T5 and ballast into the same space, it "might" be as hot (doubt it). So, where is the heat savings everyone is talking about? That turned me off.

So, now, we are down to life time of lights. Hmmm, okay, 5 years? That "might" pay for itself.

Wattage, hmmmm....... Well, everyone seems to feel the need to go with the 150w units, so, not saving electricity there. Well, that is if I go with straight on/off which is all I have now.


Looks like T5 technology is still in the picture, though, I AM still trying to get to the dark side somehow, lol. Being a techie junk head and very practical dude, there is a lot of conflict of interest going on up in the ol cranial cavity. Throw in the shimmer issue and wow, were talking necessary visits to my shrink, ha ha.

i just switched to all LEDs recently using the reefbrites. they are damned hot! like if i stick my arm into my tank, if part of it touches the LEDs, my arm gets burned! however, in regards to the heat issue, for some reason, my tank water isn't as hot as when i was running all T5s.

the other thing i noticed was, everyone talks about all this shimmer from LEDs, i don't get very much of it in my tank. my guess is, its because i have the LEDs about 6" away from the water surface, plus the reefbrites appear to have reflectors of some sort on the fixtures. so maybe the light gets dispersed before it hits the surface, minimizing shimmer. i get some shimmer, but not like what i see on some nano cubes where its like you're in some 70s disco about to have a seizure!

i hate buying and replacing new T5 bulbs every 8-12 months, they cost about 35-45$ here for the 48" ATI bulbs, with 6 bulbs to replace, kinda sucks. at least i don't have to worry about buying new bulbs for a couple years, and by then, i'm sure new technology will either drive LED prices down or something new will come along. its also nice not to need a new T5 ballast, which eventually broke on my T5 setup and required more of an investment back then.

[greech]

Originally Posted by gpx1200

shimmer is caused by the ripples on the water, if you can get the top of the watter totaly smooth their will be no shimmer. i have a 20 g mantis tank that has cree leds and a calm surface and theirs no shimmer unless you agitate the waters surface

^This. The more surface ripples, the more shimmer. I realize that is not always possible to do but it does change the disco effect significantly.

[csmfish]

Originally Posted by karsseboom

Why not just use t5 and no metal halide and no LEDs.

I was trying to get away from a totally covered tank. 72" of T5 is a lot of bulb, lol. 3 MH, a little more maneuverable, or, 3 21"x? LED lights and easy peasy.......I think. Like I said, I am also into the latest gadgets, if they work and are an improvement, but, if I am not gonna get what I am looking for, then they just aint gonna work .

Originally Posted by Reverend Reefer

i just switched to all LEDs recently using the reefbrites. they are damned hot! like if i stick my arm into my tank, if part of it touches the LEDs, my arm gets burned! however, in regards to the heat issue, for some reason, my tank water isn't as hot as when i was running all T5s.

the other thing i noticed was, everyone talks about all this shimmer from LEDs, i don't get very much of it in my tank. my guess is, its because i have the LEDs about 6" away from the water surface, plus the reefbrites appear to have reflectors of some sort on the fixtures. so maybe the light gets dispersed before it hits the surface, minimizing shimmer. i get some shimmer, but not like what i see on some nano cubes where its like you're in some 70s disco about to have a seizure!

i hate buying and replacing new T5 bulbs every 8-12 months, they cost about 35-45$ here for the 48" ATI bulbs, with 6 bulbs to replace, kinda sucks. at least i don't have to worry about buying new bulbs for a couple years, and by then, i'm sure new technology will either drive LED prices down or something new will come along. its also nice not to need a new T5 ballast, which eventually broke on my T5 setup and required more of an investment back then.

I would say your water stays cooler because it is not getting blocked by the T5's as much and there is maybe more air circulating around the fixture and going up n outward. Havnt seen your setup but thats just a guess. Also, the heat on the LED might just be there on that surface and dissipates quickly too. Thats all just a humble guess

Originally Posted by greech

^This. The more surface ripples, the more shimmer. I realize that is not always possible to do but it does change the disco effect significantly.

I will just have to get my tank up and running for now and see what happens as far as what kind of ripples I make/get. Until then, I will go with some bozo ghetto setup.

[csmfish]

So, with 3 22" openings (were talking LEDs here for now) that is 558.80mm according to the calculator. The 36w here http://www.eshinesystems.com/aqua/4g...ium-light.html (bookmarked for you and my pleasure, lol ) are 450mm. Would that be enough for a clam in a 24" deep tank?