Lighting Help for a Deep Tank

rainmkr07 · 04/09/2012, 07:38 AM

I have a 150g Marineland Deep Dimension Tank. The dimensions are 36"x36"x27". It's been running for 3 months. I currently have 2 Radions over it, but their PAR results were not impressive, to say the least. I think this is partially because the tank is so deep, and they lack the "punch" to provide PAR deeper down in the water.

Initial rock work. You can see radion spotlighting as well:

PAR reading taken yesterday:

I currently have it setup as a mixed reef, but my goal is a 100% sps heavy tank. The plan was to add a 3rd radion down the road, when the SPS got going, but I'm not sure a 3rd radion would increase the overall par in the tank, or at the bottom half of the tank either. The canopy is 9" from the surface of the water, so I can't hang a lumenarc reflector inside with a 400w MH bulb (which would've been my first choice as a lighting option).

Distance from canopy to water's surface:

So, here are my options. I am looking for advice on what I should do.

1. Leave the tank with just the 2 radions.
2. Add some 36" T5s to the tank. (How many? 3-6?)
3. Add a 3rd radion to the tank.
4. Sell the radions, install 36" T5 reflectors/bulbs. (How many T5s? 8-16?)
5. Hire a carpenter to make the canopy taller so you can hang a MH.
5A: Hang a lumenarc 3 w/ a 400w MH in the center.
5B: Hang a lumenarc 3 w/ a 400w MH in the center and some 36" T5s on the sides for supplements.
5C: Hang 2 250w or 400w MHs in the canopy.

What would you do?

sirreal63 · 04/09/2012, 08:32 AM

If you want to know if the third one will do the trick, then put the two you have closer together and see if the overlap helps the PAR enough. If you are happy with the PAR in the middle then go with the third one. It is asking a lot of Radions to punch down that deep but the third one should help a lot. Even high up you aren't getting good PAR. I know the Apogee understates it but for a full blown SPS reef, it isn't much light. How was the spread of PAR?

You have room for several T5's, and it would help a lot. If I were doing MH on that tank, I would use a pair of LumenArc III Mini's with 250 watt Radiums. They have almost the same PAR as the 400 watters when both are run with the correct ballast. The 400 watt is just too much heat to deal with for a minimal gain in PAR and having a canopy makes heat management for important.

I love the aquascape, and if you stay with the Radions, it may take 4 to get both the spread and the PAR. A staggered setup would probably work better to cover the 36x36 area.

Donkeykong · 04/09/2012, 08:48 AM

I really like the Radions but I have been saying that since they have no optics that they will not work on the deeper tanks, over 24" and they just start to loose there punch. I dont know how much supplemental T5's will give you at depths, the tank will have a better uniform spread without the spot lighting you are seeing. But if you want to stick with LED's I suggest the AI Sols, they will punch plenty deep enough as I have a seen 2 tanks at 32" deep with clams on the sand. You could get 3 for a lot cheaper than 3 radions. They do lack in the violet end of the spectrum so the reds dont pop as well, you could wait and see what the new AI Vega will have, should be same penetration ability with wider spectrum. Halides are tried and true, I would suspect as the post above stated that with a high end reflector 250watters would do you well, just make sure your hood and tank in general is setup to take that kind of heat.

rainmkr07 · 04/09/2012, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirreal63

If you want to know if the third one will do the trick, then put the two you have closer together and see if the overlap helps the PAR enough. If you are happy with the PAR in the middle then go with the third one. It is asking a lot of Radions to punch down that deep but the third one should help a lot. Even high up you aren't getting good PAR. I know the Apogee understates it but for a full blown SPS reef, it isn't much light. How was the spread of PAR?

You have room for several T5's, and it would help a lot. If I were doing MH on that tank, I would use a pair of LumenArc III Mini's with 250 watt Radiums. They have almost the same PAR as the 400 watters when both are run with the correct ballast. The 400 watt is just too much heat to deal with for a minimal gain in PAR and having a canopy makes heat management for important.

I love the aquascape, and if you stay with the Radions, it may take 4 to get both the spread and the PAR. A staggered setup would probably work better to cover the 36x36 area.

Thanks for the reply Jack. I forgot about the Apogee PAR reading being understated for LEDs. Maybe they aren't as bad as these numbers then. There was a spread of PAR. The numbers above were in the middle of the tank, the numbers in the corners, or the front or back of the tank were lower. For example, the front bottom readings (left to right) were 70/90/70; the front middle were 140/170/140; the front top left and right were 130/180/130.

If I went with 3, I think I'd lay them out like this:

Just not sure if I should invest another $700 into the lighting. That would be $2100 total. That's a heck of a MH or T5 setup (with replacement bulbs for years).

I may add 6 T5 bulbs, 2 to the left, 2 to the middle, and 2 to the right, of the radions? Would 6 39w T5s help you think?

sirreal63 · 04/09/2012, 09:29 AM

That looks like D2Mini's tank and I don't think he keeps SPS down low, and yes I would probably do the same layout so that the overlap was directly over the bulk of the SPS. But before I bought a third. I would go ahead and set the two you have side by side and read the PAR again. It will tell you if having them side by side will help, then add the third to cover the tank.

You are right, it is a huge investment that is hard to justify for large tanks. My tank is 40x40x17, quite a bit shorter than your 27" and I just cannot justify the expense. I light mine with a pair of 150 watt Radiums in LumenArc's, which is more than enough light.

The hard part of this is if three isn't enough and you have to buy that fourth one. That is a huge investment in lights. Welcome to the fun of cube style tanks and lighting. I love mine and hate it at the same time. Wait until your SPS grow and you have to crank up the flow, your sand will be moving around.

I still like the idea of adding T5's. Some LET retro's would even out the lighting but it would probably be best with the third Radion as well. It's a tough decision.

ghostman · 04/09/2012, 09:42 AM

A third radion would help, but the diagonal arrangement might leave some severe cold spots. IMO, the radions cover 18" max, and you would need 4 to increase your PAR and provide full coverage of the tank. IME, the overlap does help with the PAR readings when I used my Apogee meter. I also agree that T5s might also lack the punch you desire to get down deep in the tank. Maybe a single central sol blue with all 70* optics would help? You could compensate for the lack of colors by punching up reds/greens on the radions. Just a thought...

rainmkr07 · 04/09/2012, 09:52 AM

Thanks for the replies. 4 Radions is out of the budget. 2 was already pushing it. If 4 is the only way to make the tank SPS-heavy capable... Than I need to figure something else out.

Do you think a single 400w 20k MH in a large lumenarc reflector would give better full tank coverage, all 36"x36", and all the way to the bottom of the tank?

sirreal63 · 04/09/2012, 09:59 AM

It depends on the bulb and ballast and the look you want. You would need to raise a single 400 pretty high to get the coverage.

rainmkr07 · 04/09/2012, 10:32 AM

This guy has a Sfiligoi 400w w/ 4 24w T5 fixture for sale. If I raised the canopy to hang it, I wonder how it would do?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...light=sfiligoi

sirreal63 · 04/09/2012, 10:41 AM

I would not put it in a canopy, it is a great fixture and a killer price but heat will be an issue unless the canopy is open top. That is too nice of a fixture to hide in a canopy. It would do a decent job at coverage, they have proper reflectors but the higher you raise it the less impact the T5's will have.

humaguy · 04/09/2012, 12:22 PM

I am in the same boat...trying to find good leds for my 32 inch deep tank...any thoughts? tank is 10 feet long, 3 feet wide, and fowlr....thanks...

humaguy · 04/09/2012, 04:28 PM

bump...any thoughts???

rainmkr07 · 04/10/2012, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by humaguy

I am in the same boat...trying to find good leds for my 32 inch deep tank...any thoughts? tank is 10 feet long, 3 feet wide, and fowlr....thanks...

I don't know of any LED that can punch through 32". Maybe someone else can chime in with something. I know Radions can't do that. I doubt AI Sols can punch that deep either. Maybe photo cannons, but you'd have spotlighting unless you put them really high above the tank...

TimeConsumer · 04/10/2012, 05:21 AM

If you're into DIY check out this thread on LEDs.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2128756
They're using eBay purchased multichip LEDs from Hong Kong. I'd venture to guess a 100w 20k multichip can punch through depths up to 3 feet successfully.

sirreal63 · 04/10/2012, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by humaguy

I am in the same boat...trying to find good leds for my 32 inch deep tank...any thoughts? tank is 10 feet long, 3 feet wide, and fowlr....thanks...

For fish only with live rock you can use just about anything, you aren't trying to get decent PAR levels down deep, you just need light. I would use T5's.

scarface70706 · 04/10/2012, 06:13 PM

i recommend to start saving money and buy a third unit. and then down the road buy a fourth if needed. i know the price looks steep but your coals are doing just fine right now and i doubt your going to start dumping in sps after sps in the next 6 months so in the mean time i would start saving for the units. besides why mix your lights up when you can keep every thing uniform. besides do you really want to see those beautiful radions surrounded by cheapo lights lol.... if you really dont want the radions any more shoot me a PM and ill buy them off you.

rainmkr07 · 04/11/2012, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scarface70706

i recommend to start saving money and buy a third unit. and then down the road buy a fourth if needed. i know the price looks steep but your coals are doing just fine right now and i doubt your going to start dumping in sps after sps in the next 6 months so in the mean time i would start saving for the units. besides why mix your lights up when you can keep every thing uniform. besides do you really want to see those beautiful radions surrounded by cheapo lights lol.... if you really dont want the radions any more shoot me a PM and ill buy them off you.

this is probably what I will do, start saving now. i was just thinking of how I would mount them. hanging 2 is easy. hanging 4 would be easy. but how would you mount 3? is this way the best way to hang 3 over a 36"x36" tank?

04/09/2012, 07:38 AM	#1
rainmkr07 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 474	Lighting Help for a Deep Tank I have a 150g Marineland Deep Dimension Tank. The dimensions are 36"x36"x27". It's been running for 3 months. I currently have 2 Radions over it, but their PAR results were not impressive, to say the least. I think this is partially because the tank is so deep, and they lack the "punch" to provide PAR deeper down in the water. Initial rock work. You can see radion spotlighting as well: PAR reading taken yesterday: I currently have it setup as a mixed reef, but my goal is a 100% sps heavy tank. The plan was to add a 3rd radion down the road, when the SPS got going, but I'm not sure a 3rd radion would increase the overall par in the tank, or at the bottom half of the tank either. The canopy is 9" from the surface of the water, so I can't hang a lumenarc reflector inside with a 400w MH bulb (which would've been my first choice as a lighting option). Distance from canopy to water's surface: So, here are my options. I am looking for advice on what I should do. 1. Leave the tank with just the 2 radions. 2. Add some 36" T5s to the tank. (How many? 3-6?) 3. Add a 3rd radion to the tank. 4. Sell the radions, install 36" T5 reflectors/bulbs. (How many T5s? 8-16?) 5. Hire a carpenter to make the canopy taller so you can hang a MH. 5A: Hang a lumenarc 3 w/ a 400w MH in the center. 5B: Hang a lumenarc 3 w/ a 400w MH in the center and some 36" T5s on the sides for supplements. 5C: Hang 2 250w or 400w MHs in the canopy. What would you do? __________________ 150g Marineland Deep Dimension

04/09/2012, 08:32 AM	#2
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	If you want to know if the third one will do the trick, then put the two you have closer together and see if the overlap helps the PAR enough. If you are happy with the PAR in the middle then go with the third one. It is asking a lot of Radions to punch down that deep but the third one should help a lot. Even high up you aren't getting good PAR. I know the Apogee understates it but for a full blown SPS reef, it isn't much light. How was the spread of PAR? You have room for several T5's, and it would help a lot. If I were doing MH on that tank, I would use a pair of LumenArc III Mini's with 250 watt Radiums. They have almost the same PAR as the 400 watters when both are run with the correct ballast. The 400 watt is just too much heat to deal with for a minimal gain in PAR and having a canopy makes heat management for important. I love the aquascape, and if you stay with the Radions, it may take 4 to get both the spread and the PAR. A staggered setup would probably work better to cover the 36x36 area. __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

04/09/2012, 09:29 AM	#5
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	That looks like D2Mini's tank and I don't think he keeps SPS down low, and yes I would probably do the same layout so that the overlap was directly over the bulk of the SPS. But before I bought a third. I would go ahead and set the two you have side by side and read the PAR again. It will tell you if having them side by side will help, then add the third to cover the tank. You are right, it is a huge investment that is hard to justify for large tanks. My tank is 40x40x17, quite a bit shorter than your 27" and I just cannot justify the expense. I light mine with a pair of 150 watt Radiums in LumenArc's, which is more than enough light. The hard part of this is if three isn't enough and you have to buy that fourth one. That is a huge investment in lights. Welcome to the fun of cube style tanks and lighting. I love mine and hate it at the same time. Wait until your SPS grow and you have to crank up the flow, your sand will be moving around. I still like the idea of adding T5's. Some LET retro's would even out the lighting but it would probably be best with the third Radion as well. It's a tough decision. __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

04/09/2012, 09:42 AM	#6
ghostman Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Spring Hill, Florida Posts: 1,629	A third radion would help, but the diagonal arrangement might leave some severe cold spots. IMO, the radions cover 18" max, and you would need 4 to increase your PAR and provide full coverage of the tank. IME, the overlap does help with the PAR readings when I used my Apogee meter. I also agree that T5s might also lack the punch you desire to get down deep in the tank. Maybe a single central sol blue with all 70* optics would help? You could compensate for the lack of colors by punching up reds/greens on the radions. Just a thought... __________________ When you die, you don't know you're dead. It's only difficult for the people around you. It's the same when you're stupid. Current Tank Info: 40IM Fusion, 40lbs of rock, and 20lbs of sand. Just a few fish and corals....for now.

04/09/2012, 09:52 AM	#7
rainmkr07 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 474	Thanks for the replies. 4 Radions is out of the budget. 2 was already pushing it. If 4 is the only way to make the tank SPS-heavy capable... Than I need to figure something else out. Do you think a single 400w 20k MH in a large lumenarc reflector would give better full tank coverage, all 36"x36", and all the way to the bottom of the tank? __________________ 150g Marineland Deep Dimension

04/09/2012, 08:48 AM	#3
Donkeykong Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Grover Beach CA Posts: 1,847	I really like the Radions but I have been saying that since they have no optics that they will not work on the deeper tanks, over 24" and they just start to loose there punch. I dont know how much supplemental T5's will give you at depths, the tank will have a better uniform spread without the spot lighting you are seeing. But if you want to stick with LED's I suggest the AI Sols, they will punch plenty deep enough as I have a seen 2 tanks at 32" deep with clams on the sand. You could get 3 for a lot cheaper than 3 radions. They do lack in the violet end of the spectrum so the reds dont pop as well, you could wait and see what the new AI Vega will have, should be same penetration ability with wider spectrum. Halides are tried and true, I would suspect as the post above stated that with a high end reflector 250watters would do you well, just make sure your hood and tank in general is setup to take that kind of heat.

04/09/2012, 09:59 AM	#8
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	It depends on the bulb and ballast and the look you want. You would need to raise a single 400 pretty high to get the coverage. __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

04/09/2012, 10:32 AM	#9
rainmkr07 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 474	This guy has a Sfiligoi 400w w/ 4 24w T5 fixture for sale. If I raised the canopy to hang it, I wonder how it would do? http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...light=sfiligoi __________________ 150g Marineland Deep Dimension

04/09/2012, 10:41 AM	#10
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	I would not put it in a canopy, it is a great fixture and a killer price but heat will be an issue unless the canopy is open top. That is too nice of a fixture to hide in a canopy. It would do a decent job at coverage, they have proper reflectors but the higher you raise it the less impact the T5's will have. __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

04/09/2012, 12:22 PM	#11
humaguy Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Western Ct, NYC Posts: 8,218	I am in the same boat...trying to find good leds for my 32 inch deep tank...any thoughts? tank is 10 feet long, 3 feet wide, and fowlr....thanks...

04/09/2012, 04:28 PM	#12
humaguy Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Western Ct, NYC Posts: 8,218	bump...any thoughts???

04/10/2012, 05:21 AM	#14
TimeConsumer Registered Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: New Orleans, La Posts: 1,919	If you're into DIY check out this thread on LEDs. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2128756 They're using eBay purchased multichip LEDs from Hong Kong. I'd venture to guess a 100w 20k multichip can punch through depths up to 3 feet successfully. __________________ Steve - Retired from reefing, for now.

04/10/2012, 06:13 PM	#16
scarface70706 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 1,364	i recommend to start saving money and buy a third unit. and then down the road buy a fourth if needed. i know the price looks steep but your coals are doing just fine right now and i doubt your going to start dumping in sps after sps in the next 6 months so in the mean time i would start saving for the units. besides why mix your lights up when you can keep every thing uniform. besides do you really want to see those beautiful radions surrounded by cheapo lights lol.... if you really dont want the radions any more shoot me a PM and ill buy them off you.