freaking out- please help!

[SauceSBC]

I'm in a freak out session with my sw (saltwater) tank. I have tons of experience in fw (freshwater), and I always wanted to get into sw, so I bought an established system from someone who was moving away. I bought this reef system (55 gal with a penguin 300 I think? Its a friggin freshwater filter- I know I need to get a sump- a protein skimmer, about 80lb live rock, an anemone, some corals, some inverts, a mandarin goby, a solar fairy wrasse, a purple dottyback, a blue damsel, a dwarf moray eel, and a very small blue hippo tang that just came down with ich a few days ago!)

My nitrates are thru the roof, this kid did not meter any of his water chemistry- my tang has ich. I have an ro, (just a 3 filter ro), but I kept his water and he used treated tap water. I have some extra tanks I can set up for a hospital tank. Ive done 3, 20% water changes in 3 weeks and just started using natural nitrate reducer.. its still at about 70. I started feeding my corals phyco pure which gave me a huge algae bloom, and now Im noticing this slime snot on some live rock no where near my corals or anemone. I read some one else's post with a similar slime problem, but I dont top off with anything (I didnt think I had to with ro water) and the answer to their problem didnt apply to me.

So I have ich, nitrates thru the roof, an algae boom, and now some snot growing which Im guessing is a bacterial issue. How do I fix what this kid did to this tank? I really thought I could handle sw since I know how to do fw. I have 5 fw tanks and i dont have any issues in any of them. Yeah so Im panicking, and I dont know how to fix this. Im willing to do whatever. Please help!

[ken55]

WOW! You do have a lot of issues all at once.

I'm not an expert but I can give decent advice. If I were you the 1st thing I would address is the fish. Go ahead and get them into hospital tanks. Match the salinity of the water they are already in. Sorry to say but it sounds as though some may not make it. If the tang survives he will need to be given a new home. A 55g is too small for him. The mandarin has the most likely chance of dieing. They are an expert level fish with a specialized diet.

Yes, you should get a skimmer. The penguin filter isn't necessarily a bad thing. Yes, plan on 50+ lbs of good live rock. All this can be worked on while the fish are in HT.

HTH

BTW, Welcome to the Hobby. Sorry you're off to such a hard start.

[yh1185]

I would put the ich infested fish into a QT immediately, and treat it following the advice in this forum. I would also take out the rest of the fish and put them in a seperate QT just to watch them to make sure there aren't any signs of ich. While the fish are in QT/Hospital tanks, I would do continuous water changes in the DT. I would buy an RO/DI unit, or convert your RO unit to an RO/DI unit, and get a TDS meter. That way you know your water is good. Just do like 10% water changes every other day for a bit, and your water chemistry should get much much better. Each time you do a water change, take the siphon and clean out whatever slime/algae you don't want. Just in case you don't have one, get a refractometer so you can match SG as well. Just take it slow, and don't get too worked up, and don't over-react and try to do too much at once. SW tanks take time and patience. If these fish have survived their previous owner, they're probably pretty hardy fish, so just try your best, read up as much as possible in this forum, and take it step by step. Good luck!

[sponger0]

Oh boy....you took on alot. First.....get some fresh RO/DI water...not just RO. Setup a QT. Get your fish in there and decide if you are going to treat with copper or hypo. You will need a refractometer for hypo.

Also its going to help if you give us water parameters.

Not your display tank needs to be without fish for at least 4-6 weeks if not longer. Also do around a 20% water change with fresh RO/DI saltwater.

Slime or cyano means there are alot of phosphates. You need an accurate test to determine how high they are.

[ken55]

I misread your comment. You already have the skimmer and rock. Oooops.

[bnumair]

ok if u know ur fish have ich, take them out, QT them and medicate them with cooper or hyposalinity, then take all the water out from ur main tank and scrub the rocks down and get rid of all the algae as much as you can. then fill it back up with freshly made saltwater with rodi water. leave the main tak lifeless for 8 weeks. kill the lights for those 8 weeks and dark the tank with tarp or blankets to cover it for no lights. keep perfoming water changes and keep eye on nitrates.this will solve the main tank issue.
for QT setup a new tank if u dont already habe a qt tank. be ready to change water daily as biological filter is not ready in that tank to take the load so ammonia will spike. only way to keep it under check is to do water changes.
with each water change u will loose the copper u put in as medication and it will be a nightmare so i suggest u use hyporsalinity method.
keep salinity at 1.009 and keep water changes with same salinity of 1.009.

[sponger0]

I also just noticed the mandarin. They dont handle QT very well. Now due to their thick slimy coat, more slimy than most other fish, they are less affected by ich. But that doesnt mean they cant still get it, but they can still carry it.

I had another type of dragonette...same family of fish, in a tank I had an ich breakout but didnt quarantine him. I left him in the DT and the ich from the tank died off after 4 weeks. Not saying this would work, but this is a fish for an experienced saltwater aquarist so you may want to find him a new home.

And no wonder this person didnt want the tank anymore.

[IridescentLily]

buy a big brute trash can at your local home depot, so you can use that to hold your animals if you need to while you're fixing stuff with the tank. Make sure to rinse it out first with some regular tap water to get any dust out of it.

Start your ro making some water asap, get salt and then start mixing some new saltwater for upcoming water changes.

Get an extra heater, and a powerhead.

Get a hydrometer.

Get a nitrite, and nitrate test, and a copper test (since you may be dosing copper as someone said above).

Stop adding things to the tank to fix the water parameters.

Has the sand been vacuumed ever, during a water change? That's the first place i'd start cleaning up. You'll need water change to do this.

i know you have no sump and no skimmer, but you didn't mention having any pumps or powerheads in the tank. Then you need to get some flow in the tank if you dont already. A big powerhead.

When your done with these things then we can start other things to address these problems.

And breathe.

[sponger0]

Originally Posted by IridescentLily

And breathe.

+1 lol

[blt]

Step 1: Take a deep breath. Then another. Then another. Think calm thoughts.



First thing - you don't absolutely, 100% need a sump. It's definitely a very good idea to have one, but your tank isn't doomed without one. If you want to add one, I say go for it, but it's not a quick fix to these problems and the lack of one isn't the source of them either.

With high nitrates and using natural nitrate remover, an algae bloom doesn't surprise me. Water changes are going to be the best way of dealing with the high nitrates and the algae bloom in the short run. Also take care that you're not over-feeding. I'd stop dosing the natural nitrate remover for now, see if the bloom clears up. It could be the "missing piece" that let the bloom start.

As for the Ich, read this - http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1985626 - and come back here with any questions.

How about a better description of the slime? First thing that comes to mind is cyanobacteria.

[ken55]

Me again..... This occured to me. You're gonna be treating livestock for many weeks in the QT. This is roughly the same time it would take a tank to cycle.

You could (just a suggestion) throw away the existing sand/rock, obtain cured live rock, new sand and basicly start over. It may actually be easier that way.

And no, you do not HAVE to have a sump. They are great and work very well for their purpose but a 55g is small enough to run fine without one. If you don't believe me you can come look at mine. Or any of the nano and pico tanks out there.

Anyway it's just an idea.

[Lorenz725]

Take a breath and read read read! Take one step at a time and you will be able to get it under control. You have got a lot of good advice already and like others said take care of the sick fish first. Things can go bad in a hurry in this hobby and take a long time to get them right again.

[Cloudburst2000]

Personally, I would follow the advice given so far. I will add another piece. Take the mandarin to your LFS and trade it in. Lots of times you can get store credit. Sadly to say, you don't have the experience to care for this fish and they require established systems with a ton of pods to eat (which they won't get in QT). I would also trade in the tang after you treat it for ich in the QT. A 55g tank isn't a large enough aquarium for a hippo tang. I would also trade in the anemone as they usually require the care of a more experienced aquarist. They also require established tanks (at least, one year). And it seems that you will basically need to pretty much dismantle the tank and put it back together better then before.

You mentioned that the tank has a skimmer. What brand and model? Some skimmers are good, some are crap. I would personally set up two QT...one for the fish and one for the inverts. And I would completely break the tank down. Possibly drill it and plumb it to a sump/refugium. You can use penguin 300 filter but if you have to do so many changes to the tank why not bite the bullet and just drill for a sump which will be better filtration. Put the rocks in a large rubbermaid container with good flow (and no light) while setting the tank up (drilling, plumbing, etc). And then add rock back to the tank with some new salt water. Wait for the tank to cycle again. While doing all this be treating the fish for ich with hypo salinity. Keep fish in QT for at least six weeks, and after they seem healty, start slowly adding them back into the tank. My brother-in-law did this same thing when he had a major ich outbreak in his tank. He broke the tank down while treating fish in QT, and used the time to make some major upgrades to the tank...plumbed the tank instead of a HOB fuge, etc.

[IridescentLily]

I forgot to add above....come to think of it, if you can afford it, get more than one big ol' brute trash can. Because you may (or may not) need one brute to put the corals somewhere seperate, one brute for rock if you're going to have to 'do' something with the rock, one for the fish for qt, and one reservoir for water change water, etc. You know?
Also, It's gonna take awhile to make alot of RO water so maybe you can hurry things along by calling your local fish stores and asking if you can buy some RO water from them. Many fish stores will do this.

By a plastic turkey baster from the grocery store, so you can blow detritus from the rocks.
And if you can afford it buy more than one powerhead. You'll need one for the display tank (cuz you don't have any in there now), AND you'll need one to mix the salt with the RO, and you'll need one for the QT also.

And that penguin biowheel freshwater filter is not going to be able to handle all this particulate matter being stirred up. You need some kind of filter floss in a canister filter (or filter floss in whatever filter equipment you buy). You'll need mechanical filtration aside from the skimmer, which you will need also, but not as soon as you need the other emergency things mentioned above.

And the gentlemen above is right, you don't necessarily NEED a sump. Save that for later after this stuff is taken care of.

[SauceSBC]

Ok guys, I can't thank you all enough! I do want to add that I do have a protein skimmer and I'm in the process of building a refugium sump (with help). I need you all to remember, that eventhough I'm very experienced in fw, I'm such a beginner with sw, and I don't know any of these abbreviations. So plz be patient with me and maybe put in parentheses what it means the first time? That'd be a great help. I get so side tracked stopping reading to look up what these mean.
So let me tell you what I did- I went to my local fish store and got 10 gal of clean established sw (already been through the nitrogen cycle so I can put the fish straight in it).
After taking out most of my live rock so I could catch the fish, I did a fw dip. (for the fw dip, I used ro water of same temp and matched ph, put an air stone in and let them be in there for 5 min.)
Now theyre in a 10 gal hospital tank. I did the fw dip, and used uninfected yet established sw. I dosed it with copper. I only did this with the 3 fish that showed any symptoms (salt like dots) I left my mandarin in the tank with my blue damsel. They were fine. I just hope my taking the tank apart to catch the other fish didn't cause them enough stress for them to get sick! I knew my mandarin wouldn't have a good chance of surviving the treatments, so since that baby is healthy, I don't want to risk it.
So now what? I keep them in hospital tank for 4-6 weeks while keeping up woth copper treatment? Should i continue with the fw dips? If so, how often? I was advised to syphon the bottom evey other day to suck up any fallen parasites.. is that a good idea? How often and how much of water changes in the hospital tank? Don't forget I'm treating with copper. Will that cause any other spikes I should watch for?
As for my nitrate issue in my main tank.. how do u feel about the vodka method? I'm still working on water changes. I haven't swept the sand bed yet bcuz I have at least 80lb of live rock in there that id have to move around to do that.
Thanks to everyone who got me this far, and let me know where to go from here.

[SauceSBC]

I do have power heads. Should I use one in the hospital tank eventhough its only a 10 gal? I have a big fan in my main tank for the current. I took the power head out that he had in there because it was just floating around. I didn't think I needed it with the fan in the water. There is no under sand filter for it.

[SauceSBC]

When vacuuming the sand, I do just the surface right? I don't actually dig in there with the syphon like i would gravel, right?

[SauceSBC]

I've always wanted to do sw. I just wish I wouldve learned more first. My tank means a lot to me and I'm very attached to my fish. I want to thank you all for being so kind to share your knowledge and experience with me. I really thought this would be easier with all of my fw experience. So, thank you for your patients in explaining things. This is the only place I'm getting the same advice. Anywhere else i went, everyone had something very different to say and I was left so confused and overwhelmed.
So really, I appreciate you guys taking the time to help me. Any knowledge shared is helpful.

[sponger0]

So now what? I keep them in hospital tank for 4-6 weeks while keeping up woth copper treatment?

Depending on which copper you use, its typically, treat for 2 weeks and watch for the next 4-6 weeks to make sure the ich clears up.

Should i continue with the fw dips? If so, how often?

I typically avoid this.

I was advised to syphon the bottom evey other day to suck up any fallen parasites.. is that a good idea?

Unnecessary if the tank if fallow (fishless). Just syphon out any cyano (slime). I would keep up on water changes. This should help bring down your nitrates.

How often and how much of water changes in the hospital tank?

Test your water frequently for ammonia. This is what will tell you if you need to do a water change. I would guess every day.

Don't forget I'm treating with copper. Will that cause any other spikes I should watch for?

Other than keeping your eye on the ammonia....no.



Also, I hope you dont have the mandarin in HT. It will most likely not make it. They dont do well in quarantine. They are an experienced fish as I have mentioned and others. They have a very particular diet that requires you to know what your doing and for you to keep up on their food, which is typically very difficult unless the tank has been setup for one from day 1.

[sponger0]

Originally Posted by SauceSBC

When vacuuming the sand, I do just the surface right? I don't actually dig in there with the syphon like i would gravel, right?

Just syphon out where there is spot to clean up, like algae and cyano. Otherwise you could stir around somethings in the sand and cause more problems in the tank.

[ken55]

Originally Posted by SauceSBC

I need you all to remember, that eventhough I'm very experienced in fw, I'm such a beginner with sw, and I don't know any of these abbreviations. So plz be patient with me and maybe put in parentheses what it means the first time? That'd be a great help. I get so side tracked stopping reading to look up what these mean.

Oh yeah... Sorry about that. I also struggled with that the first few weeks on this site. After a while it became easy to read and then I just started tying that way.

It's an excellent point and I'll try to remember it when responding to someone who isn't using the abbreviations in their posts.

[sponger0]

Originally Posted by ken55

Oh yeah... Sorry about that. I also struggled with that the first few weeks on this site. After a while it became easy to read and then I just started tying that way.

It's an excellent point and I'll try to remember it when responding to someone who isn't using the abbreviations in their posts.

Speaking of which, there is a stickie with all the acronyms. I looked at it myself when I first got on here. I felt like I was reading jibberish lol

[KBear]

It looks like your on the right track to getting everything settled down. One thing you might consider is putting the blue damsel through the copper treatment with everybody else. It might not be showing signs of ich, it still could be a carrier, and it would suck to go through a copper treatment, and a long fallow period in your display, only to get everybody back in and have another ich outbreak.

[wnppmy]

Super postings here, wow wealth of super info.

Back into saltwater recently, one of my favored purchases is a Refractometer, precise on measure of salinity, keep mine consistent at 1.025. You add water if needed as salinity can rise due to evaporation, then when your specified water change things match perfectly.

Here is a rare look right into this cool device, lots of retailers, mine via Aqua Cave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQKF1...e_gdata_player

If possible have the new saltwater mixed near 6 days ahead of time. Of course use distilled or filtered water.

Again amazing info here.

[EllieSuz]

You're on the right track, but you cannot leave any fish in your display tank. Just because they don't display any visible symptoms doesn't mean they are not carrying Ich. If even one fish is left in display, it provides a host for the parasite and all your quarantine and treatments will be useless. The rest will be reinfected when they're returned to the main tank. The freshwater dip was well intentioned, I'm sure, but it doesn't do anything but stress the fish. Water does not contain any phase in the life cycle of the parasite. You do not need to vacuum the sand. The parasite will die unless there is a host to sustain it. Your Mandarin probably will not survive the hospital tank. You can try to see if it will take frozen foods. Nutramar Ova is nearly irresistible to them. Try to forget most of what you knew about fishkeeping in freshwater. This is a whole new ballgame, but you'll get it figured out.