Hair Algae...battle for over 9 months

[ashlybeth]

My mom's tank info:
current tank
75 gallon (15 gallon sump with bio balls, protein skimmer, phosphate/nitrate reducing pads)
T5 lighting (blue lights on for 7 hours, white lights on for 3 hours)
RO/DI water
livestock: sea cucumber, 3 fish, frogspawn, mushrooms, bubble tip anemone, various clean up crew, zoas
feeding schedule: 1-2 weekly
great water flow - 3 Koralia

current levels - calcium, nitrite, pH and Kh all within normal ranges
salinity - 1.023, temperature - 77 degrees
ammonia - .25, nitrate - .5 and phosphate - .25

Issues - cannot get ammonia, nitrate, phosphate levels any lower that listed above (were higher before 50 gallon water change 3 weeks ago). Hair Algae is covering everything (rocks, sand, glass) within the past 3 weeks. 50 gallon water change was done due to nitrate levels reaching 50, Ammonia was .5.


Background - original tank (DAS)was set up for about 2 years. 75 gallon. old PC lighting. everything happy and thriving. upgrades lighting to t5s (dec 2011)and within 2 weeks starts seeing hair algae bloom. nothing but light changes. same rocks, sand, RO/DI water, fish (although many died during these months of hair algae), feeding schedule, levels, etc.
To battle hair algae, she
added more clean up crew
added fish that eat algae
frequent water changes
reducing light time (from 12 hours for blue lighting and 5 hours for white lighting TO 7 hours for blue and 3 hours for white)
took out each rock, pulling and scrubbing off algae with toothbrush
cleaning sand

I purchased her a drilled 75 gallon with sump in August. Setup in early September 2012. Only used 3 original rocks (which were scrubbed of algae) from previous tank...rest of rock added was dead figi and base rock. Used original sand, most of original water. Over 1 month later hair algae is covering everything again and we are battling same problem STILL!

Any ideas?! I know this is long winded. I tried to streamline as much as possible. One curious note is in original tank setup, she had corraline algae covering over most of the glass...but it never grew on rocks. Ever.

Thank you so much for your time! I want her tank to thrive as mine does!

[biecacka]

What are the TDS coming out of the RoDi unit?
Corey

[ashlybeth]

I'm just hearing about testing the TDS. I just recently purchased an RO/DI unit myself which is why I'm unfamilar (but should be apparently) with this.
I know she doesn't have a TDS meter. Her RO/DI unit is approximately 2 years old.

I can tell you my sister also uses water from the same RO/DI and doesn't have any issues with hair algae. She currently runs a 75 gallon under PC lighting and everything thrives in her tank (just as my mom's did before her new T5 lighting).


This is my own speculation but is it possible there is a correlation between the water and the lighting? As in under higher power lighting it causes phosphate/nitrate levels to increase and cause a hair algae outbreak...less efficient lighting doesn't cause same issue? It's hard to believe that it's just coincidence that the algae outbreak/war started within 2 weeks of changing from PC to T5 lighting.

[ghostman]

+1 to checking the TDS of the RO/DI water. It should be 0. How many T5 lights are there? Adequate lighting and new bulbs may help. Manual removal of algae is great to reduce the load on clean up crew. Pull out as much as you can every day. Get a phosphate reactor, and good PO4 removing media like BRS or Rowaphos. Change it often. Cut down on feedings. Dump the bio balls, they are old school. If you need more biological filtration, get more live rock. Work on getting the ammonia to 0 by cleaning out any dead decaying material, and having enough live rock for filtration. Is the skimmer big enough? They are great at airating the water and improving water quality if properly sized and tuned. Hope that's a start...

[ashlybeth]

Thank you so much for the responses and interest so far. She's ready to get rid of it all and I'm about ready to pull my hair out because I can't figure it out! HAHA!

There are 4 or 6 T5's (I can't remember). Do you think 7 hours of blue light and 3 hours of white are an adequate amount of time?

[heritage]

A change in lighting spectrum can cause algae to grow but its only because there is something its feeding on. Phosphates are the main culprit.
What kind of test kits are you using ?
Is there a sand bed ?
Is it siphon cleaned on a regular basis ?
Is there detrius sitting in the sump ?
How much live rock is in the tank ?
What size are the koralia ?
What type fish ?
I agree, get rid of the bio balls.

[Sk8r]

Phase out the bio balls not abruptly but about 3 every 3 days until gone. Those are your nitrate issue. The phosphate can be gotten by hooking up a GFO reactor (Phosban) ---not just a sock---and running it for about 3 months. Don't overdo it: SOME phosphate is needful for your algae, pods, mandys, hermits, snails and all those little things that nosh on a little algae. The operative word is 'little'. REmove the reactor after about 3 months or the cessation of hair algae, whichever comes first.

[ashlybeth]

API reef and saltwater test kits.
Approximate 2 inch sand bed
Will check on siphoning. I know she regularly uses turkey baster to clean off rocks and blow off top of sand in original tank which was up and running until September 2012.
Not sure about detritus, but know there is hair algae starting to grow on bio balls.
Approximately 50 lbs live rock in display tank, none in sump.
I believe she has (2) 425s and (1) 240 koralias
1 yellow goby, 1 chromis, 1 clown, 1 damsel

[ashlybeth]

Also, the sump has only been setup with the drilled tank (which was setup September 2012). The original tank (What she had when this started), was not drilled and did not have a sump.

[ashlybeth]

any other suggestions? the current tank is basically a new setup since there hasn't been much time to build up detrius...and this includes the sump. I's been up a little over a month.

[Dr Colliebreath]

Given the ammonia, I expect there is some detritus trapped in the rocks, sand, filter sock, etc. Also, I wonder whether the skimmer is not efficient enough to remove sufficient nutrients.

I would start doing weekly or more frequent water changes of 20-25 gallons. That should help reduce nitrites and phosphate in the tank and get rid of detritus (baste the rocks, sand and everything else well before siphoning water out). Make sure you have 0 tds water from the rodi unit (perhaps filters need changing).

Make sure the skimmer is strong and replace it if not.

Look into vodka dosing as a way to export nitrate and phosphate. You need a good skimmer for this.

Reduce the amount of lighting by moving the lights higher or screening some of the light.

[Dr Colliebreath]

Originally Posted by ashlybeth

This is my own speculation but is it possible there is a correlation between the water and the lighting? As in under higher power lighting it causes phosphate/nitrate levels to increase and cause a hair algae outbreak...less efficient lighting doesn't cause same issue? It's hard to believe that it's just coincidence that the algae outbreak/war started within 2 weeks of changing from PC to T5 lighting.

You are correct that some portion of the problem is more light because the algae needs light and nutrients to grow. Cutting down on the time lights are on helps, as does reducing intensity with screening and moving the lights further away.

I also suggest removing the bioballs a handful at a time. They are likely part of the problem.
The skimmer also is likely weak and a significant part of the problem. Is it a hang-on? Which skimmer is it?

[ashlybeth]

Thanks for responding!!
Her skimmer is a hang on skimmer and I don't know the brand, but she's going to let me know later today. I'm sure it's not big enough. Is there a certain "rule" you can follow for how fast it needs to fill up the cup? In my tank I try to have it working fast enough to fill up the cup halfway every 4 days or so. My sand and water seem to do best with that system. My system is significantly bigger than hers so I'm not sure what she should aim to do.

What should she replace the bioballs with? Live rock? In my sump I have a sandbed, liverock, hermits, and some nitrate loving grass, copepods and amphipods. Maybe she should set hers up the same way? Her sump is designed differently so I'm not sure if her's would allow for this setup or not. I will find out.

Also, how do you screen lights? Her lights are approximately 14 inches from the top of the water level.

[ashlybeth]

When we setup current tank, everything was spotless. Bio balls had no buildup, sump was spotless. Tank has only been setup less than 2 months. Since she doesn't overfeed, lights aren't on very long and rodi water is good (filters were changed about 3 months ago...although I don't know tso level), what could be causing the issue? Rock leaching phosphate? Anything else? Could this be caused from too small skimmer? If anything has died, she pulls it out immediately...do nothing has sat there and rotted. Hasn't fed more often than twice a week.

[ashlybeth]

Her skimmer is a Maxi Jet 200.

[ashlybeth]

Her light is the Aquatic Life, 6 light. 4 blues, 1 white, 1 purple and 4 lunar lights. There are 3 timers. I just found out her lights are not placed in the correct Arrangement. Meaning when the timers go on and off, the wrong grouping of lights are being affected.

Is it possible that could be culprit of this issue?

I totally get that she had too much detrius in her previous tank...but there's no way in less than 2 months with a spotless sump, tank...no overcrowding or overfeeding she could be having this bad of an outbreak of hair algae. It's hard to believe that.

I have left a message with Aquatic Life. I would love to hear what y'all think!

[Dexters Reef]

So the tank was setup in September, with mostly new dead rock, and it's now October and you are having hair algae, ammonia and nitrate problems ? Sounds like the tank is still cycling. How long did it run with the sand and rock before you added fish and snails?

+1 to the above comments about bio balls. Ditch them over the course of a few weeks because they are nitrate factories.

I might have missed it but are you running chemi pure in your sump?

I also suggest adding more live rock to either the display or sump. Try to get 1 lb per gal. This should help with the ammonia and nitrates

[Paul B]

(filters were changed about 3 months ago...although I don't know tso level),

What filter?

I hate to get in these discussions because my methods are "slightly" different and controversial but here is what I would do.
I would completely stop changing water, that never works and is probably making it worse. Algae is self limiting and it can only grow until it exhausts the nutrients it needs and if you have a lot of hair algae, it will exhaust the nutrients in a short while, like a week or so. Of course you have fish in there so you must feed so that is adding some nutrients but I feel that your water changes are fueling the algae. The bio balls are not helping but they don't produce nutrients, they just change nitrite to nitrate which will happen no matter what you have in there, bioballs will just do it faster. Not necesarily a bad thing but take them out anyway.
After you stop changing water the algae will start to die, it has to because it will use all the nutrients and stop growing. The problem is that it will start to die and the dead algae will just fuel more algae, so you have to remove the dying algae before it has a chance to disolve and add it's nutrients back into the water. It will take some time but as long as you don't change water, the algae will keep dying and as long as you keep removing it, it will eventually disappear. Not overnight but it is physically impossable for it to keep growing if you keep removing it with it's associated nutrients that it will be absorbing. Then you need to ad a lighted refugium, look it up. You can add that to your sump. The tank is new and this is common. You should see the algae turning dark in places and at that point I would remove the rocks that you can and clean them like you have been doing. It would also be helpful to run a canister filter to remove detritus and dead algae but don't run it for more than an hour or so, then clean it.
A clean up crew will do nothing for a hari algae cycle and will just add more waste, they are animals and after they eat the algae, they poop it right back in the water. That works in the sea but not in a tank.
They are useful after the algae cycle is gone but they will do nothing now.
Yes I know they are cute, I also have a bunch of them.
After the algae is gone, you can start changing water. If this works, there is something in your fresh water fueling this.

[ashlybeth]

Originally Posted by Dexters Reef

So the tank was setup in September, with mostly new dead rock, and it's now October and you are having hair algae, ammonia and nitrate problems ? Sounds like the tank is still cycling. How long did it run with the sand and rock before you added fish and snails?

+1 to the above comments about bio balls. Ditch them over the course of a few weeks because they are nitrate factories.

I might have missed it but are you running chemi pure in your sump?

I also suggest adding more live rock to either the display or sump. Try to get 1 lb per gal. This should help with the ammonia and nitrates

That is correct. I bought her a drilled tank with sump (bought it used). When we setup new one this is what came over from original tank.
sand (was thouroughly rinsed)
approximately 15 lbs of live rock (removed as much hair algae as possible...pulled off and used toothbrush)
approximately 35 gallons of original water
1 chromis, 1 damsel, 1 yellow goby, 1 clown
mushrooms, bubble tip anemone, frogspawn
3 Koralia
Maxijet 200 protein skimmer
T5 light from Aquatic Life (4 blues, 1 white, 1 purple)

This is what is new to tank
Sump
Bioballs
Tank (glass)
approximately 30 lbs of dead (bone dry, white) rock (was live at one time...look like Figi and some base rock)

She ran Chemi Pure about 3 weeks ago.

[ashlybeth]

Originally Posted by Paul B

What filter?

I hate to get in these discussions because my methods are "slightly" different and controversial but here is what I would do.
I would completely stop changing water, that never works and is probably making it worse. Algae is self limiting and it can only grow until it exhausts the nutrients it needs and if you have a lot of hair algae, it will exhaust the nutrients in a short while, like a week or so. Of course you have fish in there so you must feed so that is adding some nutrients but I feel that your water changes are fueling the algae. The bio balls are not helping but they don't produce nutrients, they just change nitrite to nitrate which will happen no matter what you have in there, bioballs will just do it faster. Not necesarily a bad thing but take them out anyway.
After you stop changing water the algae will start to die, it has to because it will use all the nutrients and stop growing. The problem is that it will start to die and the dead algae will just fuel more algae, so you have to remove the dying algae before it has a chance to disolve and add it's nutrients back into the water. It will take some time but as long as you don't change water, the algae will keep dying and as long as you keep removing it, it will eventually disappear. Not overnight but it is physically impossable for it to keep growing if you keep removing it with it's associated nutrients that it will be absorbing. Then you need to ad a lighted refugium, look it up. You can add that to your sump. The tank is new and this is common. You should see the algae turning dark in places and at that point I would remove the rocks that you can and clean them like you have been doing. It would also be helpful to run a canister filter to remove detritus and dead algae but don't run it for more than an hour or so, then clean it.
A clean up crew will do nothing for a hari algae cycle and will just add more waste, they are animals and after they eat the algae, they poop it right back in the water. That works in the sea but not in a tank.
They are useful after the algae cycle is gone but they will do nothing now.
Yes I know they are cute, I also have a bunch of them.
After the algae is gone, you can start changing water. If this works, there is something in your fresh water fueling this.

Thanks for your comment! Our fish store guy is also a little uncoventional and it works great for him! So, remove clean up crew...she can put the fish in my sister's tank (maybe???) Once she removes the bio balls, she should have space for a refugium.

[Paul B]

You don't have to remove the clean up crew, just know that they will not solve the problem for now. You can leave them there, but don't add any more.
The thing to remember is that all that hair algae you see has all of the nutrients in it. If you can manually remove it, all the nutrients will be removed with it.
Hair algae is the best remover of hair algae nutrients there is.
Look at my reef here maybe 15 years ago, it is covered in hair algae. I know all about hair algae and have been dealing with it for over 40 years. If you have a tank long enough it comes in cycles that can come and go every five or so years. (A lighted refugium will prevent that)
I did nothing to eliminate this algae except what I posted. After it is gone you can become one of us hobbiests that love this hobby and have very few problems, this will pass.
(that sounds like something Moses would say, although I never met the man)

[Dr Colliebreath]

Originally Posted by ashlybeth

Her skimmer is a Maxi Jet 200.

Are you sure about this? When I search for maxi-jet protein skimmer 200 I don't get anything. Could it be an AquaC Remora skimmer with a maxi-jet 1200 pump?

You have a multi-prong problem and it is likely that an undersized skimmer is a major part of the problems.

Assuming this is the case, a good skimmer choice for a 75 gallon tank with a 15 gallon sump is the Reef Octopus SRO-1000 Int. Search the forums for input on this skimmer and other choices for 90 gallon setups and make sure she gets a skimmer that will handle a larger tank than she has as most are rated optimistically.

I will provide some other answers below, but you likely have some issues with the rock and detritus hanging around in the bioballs even though it has been only a couple of weeks for it to build up.

It is up to you, but personally I would address all of the other issues first and then decide whether to go with a refugium.

[Dr Colliebreath]

Originally Posted by ashlybeth

What should she replace the bioballs with? Live rock?

Also, how do you screen lights? Her lights are approximately 14 inches from the top of the water level.

I would use dead, porous rock. 15-20 lbs is likely to be sufficient. Distribute it between the display tank and the sump. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with bioballs but they tend to collect detritus, they are very efficient at converting ammonia to nitrate, and the rock should have some anaerobic areas that help remove nitrate.

On screening the lights, people tend to put a couple layers of fiberglass screening to block some light and let the rest through. I would only do this until the hair algae problem subsides. If it is easier, you might raise the lights instead and reduce the time they are on, particularly the white light which has the spectra that are more conducive to growing algae. Maybe skip the white light for a while and just run 9-10 hours per day of the rest.

[Dr Colliebreath]

Originally Posted by ashlybeth

sand (was thouroughly rinsed)
approximately 15 lbs of live rock (removed as much hair algae as possible...pulled off and used toothbrush)

This is what is new to tank
approximately 30 lbs of dead (bone dry, white) rock (was live at one time...look like Figi and some base rock)

She ran Chemi Pure about 3 weeks ago.

How was the sand rinsed? If with tap water, it probably introduced some nutrients from the tap water.

The 15 lbs of existing rock probably brought a good deal of nutrients. It was necessary as this seems to be what provided the biofilter for the new tank.

The existing rock and the dead rock could very easily have nutrients (phosphate and others) that are now leaching into the water. The dead rock may have been removed from the ocean or a tank with a lot of nutrients that dried up and are now leaching out and will continue to do so until exhausted. That could be a long time.

Thus, in addition to the undersized skimmer and likely some level of detritus, these could be another part of the problem.

[ashlybeth]

Originally Posted by Paul B

You don't have to remove the clean up crew, just know that they will not solve the problem for now. You can leave them there, but don't add any more.
The thing to remember is that all that hair algae you see has all of the nutrients in it. If you can manually remove it, all the nutrients will be removed with it.
Hair algae is the best remover of hair algae nutrients there is.
Look at my reef here maybe 15 years ago, it is covered in hair algae. I know all about hair algae and have been dealing with it for over 40 years. If you have a tank long enough it comes in cycles that can come and go every five or so years. (A lighted refugium will prevent that)
I did nothing to eliminate this algae except what I posted. After it is gone you can become one of us hobbiests that love this hobby and have very few problems, this will pass.
(that sounds like something Moses would say, although I never met the man)

Her tank looks pretty much just like that...the old one and the new one! So, it sounds like we need to remove bio balls, set up a refugium and let algae eat itself away. Probably also need to upgrade skimmer.