I've reached the point where I need help

[carl9son]

The stickies in this forum have been extremely helpful and I've read them a few times. I've also turned to Google but my sense is the information just isn't quite specific to my situation, hence this post. My experience in the hobby is with freshwater until this point, and I've generally been able to overcome the difficulties that can arise in that realm and have learned a lot over the years.

I'm just starting my first saltwater tank. Description below, followed by my current questions.

So here's what I'm (deliberately and knowingly) doing wrong:
1. Using conditioned tap water instead of RO/DI. If this turns out to be an enjoyable hobby then I'll invest in a proper purification system. I did note the water qualities out of the tap for reference, if needed.
2. I have no live rock yet, just live aragonite sand. I did NOT wash it adequately.
3. The tank is small: 30 gallons. This is simply because I already had the tank and recently sold the 55 gallon tank I had been using for freshwater. At this point I'm just trying to get a handle on maintaining water quality and have no plans to add fish until I do.
4. My only current method of filtration and circulation is a Rena canister filter I already had (which is actually overkill for a tank of this size, but that opinion is coming from my freshwater experience only).

Here's what it currently looks like: 2 inches of live sand and saltwater, circulated by the canister. It's been filled for less than 24 hours. Nothing in the canister except foam pads, which are working quite rapidly to remove the sand debris stirred up last night. Will set up the lights today: 2 white 10K/2 blue actinic...36W.

Here is what I hope will happen: I'll see signs of life such as green hair algae (probably a lot of it due to the water source) and my tank will begin to measurably cycle. I'm planning to grab some live rock today or tomorrow.

Here are my questions:
1. How can I use my canister filter and, alternatively, what should I NOT use it for?
2. I feel a refugium would be wise to control phosphate. HOB or repurpose a little 3 gallon tank I have?
3. How can I make this endeavor work without a sump for the time being? My thought is that I'll turn the 30 gal into a sump for a larger tank in the future.
4. What should my priorities be during the next week?

To be clear, I've lurked around here enough to understand that I'm handicapping myself right away. The water source, tank size, filtration method, and rock/sand installation order are not ideal. I'm hoping a few brave souls will remain forward-thinking and outcome-oriented in their suggestions. Thanks.

[Smnparish]

Welcome!

For water changes from now on are you going to continue to use tap water? Or will you start using RO/DI (which is highly recommended).

1. With the canister just make sure to clean it out regularly otherwise it will just trap waste and become a nitrate factory.

2. IMO a refugium is always worth it...if you have the means to make one, why not.

3. I would strongly recommend a protein skimmer. With a protein skimmer, refugium, Live rock, and weekly water changes combined with a reasonable bioload, you should be able to maintain the tank well long term. IMO you wouldn't even need the cansiter...you could sell the cansiter to buy a skimmer.

4. Priorities? I say get the tank to look how you want it to, practice maintaining a good maintenance schedule like you said, and find a different thing to consume your time to make the wait for the cycle to be over a little easier lol

[Gary Majchrzak]

lots to address here but I'll just make one strong suggestion: stack your liverock directly on the bottom of the aquarium and not on sand or it can (and will!) shift. Rockslides in a reef aquarium stink.
Purchasing "live sand" is not a good investment as all substrate material (ie: dry material) will become "live" in a reef aquarium. Good luck. I think you will find reef aquariums much more of a challenge than FW although the rewards can be as great or greater.

[ska d]

1. using the tap water will make this hobby unenjoyable right out of the gate. i realize this may be your only option at the moment. so be prepared to deal with/accept the problems you are going to encounter.
2. i think using a canister is fine. i run sumpless and use an eheim filled only with a sponge and bio media. (seachem Matrix). have been doing so for years and everything is fine. i do rinse all media once aweek though along with a 10% water change per week. i got my wc down to a half hour. i do dose vodka though. ( research this alot berfore trying).
3. your first priority at this point would be some live rock. this will be the majority if not all of your bio filtration. get as much as you can., its expensive, but if you go with mostly dead rock and a little live to seed it that should bring the cost down a bit.
4. running a sump isnt necessary but its nice. look up Paul B on this forum for some great advice. his methods are totally different from anyone ive ever seen but his success speaks for itself.

when i started in sw i didnt have a rodi either, but i grabbed distilled water from my grocer for water changes for the first few months. i think i paid a buck a gallon on a 30g also.so filling it cost me 30 bucks and wc were 3 bucks a week. not to bad in my opinion. seemed to work fine and never had major algae issues. i realize i didnt answer your questios in oreder but you get the idea. good luck and be patient.

[EllieSuz]

Without any rock, I can't see the point in attempting a cycle. Your "live" sand is likely anything but live. Wet sand packed in a plastic bag doesn't stay live very long and if it's been sitting on a store shelf for weeks after sitting on a warehouse shelf for months possibly....well, you get the picture. The first thing I learned in this hobby is that one must forget most of what they learned keeping freshwater. The beneficial bacteria lurks in all the nooks and crannies of ocean rock. Once you have acquired 1 to 1 1/2 pounds of rock per gallon of water, your cycle can begin in earnest. Sometimes we're so eager to get started that we use poor practices. You would be better off to be more patient and wait for RO/DI water, rock, powerheads, sump and skimmer and get that all put together before you jump the gun.

[carl9son]

Excellent suggestions all around. Thank you all so much for taking time to reply.

So it sounds like non-RO/DI water is truly a non-starter, my live sand is probably dead, the canister is negligible, and I need some live rock positioned in a stable fashion. And a protein skimmer.

So am I to believe that a tank of this size could thrive with just power heads circulating around healthy live rock, provided I'm skimming waste and using RO/DI? If I set up a refugium would that be an unwise location for a protein skimmer?

[tony11387]

Get a hang on skimmer.

You can also use the canister with carbon and GFO plus some floss.

Also, definitely go with RODI and save yourself a lot of headaches.

[sponger0]

Honestly, I dont see how this hobby could be enjoyable with tap water, and battled algae all the time.

[EllieSuz]

A tank of any size can be run with just rock, flow, skimming and good water. I use one of the compartments in my sump as a refugium. All that means is that there is some rock rubble and a big ball of Chaetomorpha, which is a macro algae that consumes nitrates in a spot away from view. So, rather than thinking of it as only a refugium, why not give some thought to a sump of some kind, dictated by the space available under your stand? These can be an easy DIY project or purchased as is. I had mine custom made, but that's not necessary. The biggest advantage is a place out of sight to keep such things as your skimmer and heater(s). Don't get rid of your canister. There will be uses for it down the road.

[gone fishin]

I kept my 30 for quite awhile without a sump and a magnum 350 cannister filter, with a couple powerheads. However you must stay on top of the cannister filter maintainence and water changes. I got a hob skimmer eventually and did away with the cannister filter. Rock is a must. You can get 1/2 to 3/4 dry rock then add some live from a LFS to save a few bucks. I eventually made a sump for it. Good luck

[Revmedia]

You didn't say what kind of tank you plan to keep? Lots of people in this hobby are very "1 way only kind of people." Truth is the further into it you get, the more you realize there are one hundred different ways to get to the same goal.

Not to say there aren't "best practices," but as an example when I first got started (12 years ago), I had a 50gal fish only tank. No live rock, no sump, no refugium. I used a good canister filter and tap water with some water conditioner. Did weekly water changes. Did I have algae? Yeah a bit, but it never stopped me from having a good time learning as I went, and the fish all lived long and (presumably happy) lives. I live in Oregon though, and our water is pretty great, so YMMV.

If the reason you're not using RODI water is because of your budget, then use what you can afford. However, you can get distilled water at the grocery story for really cheap. My local fish store sells premixed salt water for like .50 a gallon, so for a 30gal tank it's pretty easy to afford.

All that to say, take everything anyone (including me) says with a grain of salt. Read a few books about the type of reef you want to keep. The internet is fantastic for getting opinions. Sometimes it's tough to get facts though.

[denny crain]

On a small tank like this a skimmer is not a must. Lots of live rock is. Don't skimp on it. Buy dry live rock to keep the price down, plus no chance of unwanted hitch hikers. most hang on back skimmers are junk in my opinion. I would use the canister filter, live rock, power heads and an Aquaclear 70 and mod it to a refuge and a place to put caron and gfo. But you must do weekly or bi weekly water changes. If you do't have an rodi filter go to walmart and buy distilled water. Still pretty good but cost like 88 cents a gallon.

[PowerNap]

I ran a FOWLR using tap water + conditioner for years. Just keep that skimmer plugged in 24/7, and do frequent water changes. Just keep the tank size in mind when stocking it.

Keeping corals is a whole new ball game. RO/DI is a must, as is proper lighting and water changes. You can usually buy water from your LFS, but that will get old fast!

I’d cycle the tank with uncured live rock, and w/o the sand. Once cured, do a major water change and add the sand

[gone fishin]

Originally Posted by PowerNap

I ran a FOWLR using tap water + conditioner for years. Just keep that skimmer plugged in 24/7, and do frequent water changes. Just keep the tank size in mind when stocking it.

Keeping corals is a whole new ball game. RO/DI is a must, as is proper lighting and water changes. You can usually buy water from your LFS, but that will get old fast!

I’d cycle the tank with uncured live rock, and w/o the sand. Once cured, do a major water change and add the sand

Just curious what is your reasoning for adding the sand later.

[carl9son]

Originally Posted by gone fishin

Just curious what is your reasoning for adding the sand later.

I'm also curious about this...it's the first time I've heard that suggestion and if it will help I'm all ears. What's the hazard in cycling with sand in the tank?

Denny: Thanks for the suggestion about turning the Aquaclear70 into a HOB refugium. I had also thought about this kind of thing with a breeder box. But my wife gave me the "oh great, that will be a cluttered eyesore" look when I suggested it... What about using the canister to circulate from a small sump/fuge to the main tank, then get a HOB overflow to send water into the sump....I guess that would only save me the cost of purchasing a pump. Plus there would still be something hanging on the back. I could drill the tank, but if I'm going to do that I may as well just order some acrylic and build something custom...how deep does this rabbit hole go?

To all: I think with the water I'm going to see how things work out. If the algae causes things to be more frustrating than enjoyable I'll spring for a RODI system. Place your bets on how long it takes that to happen...

[gone fishin]

The Rabbit hole can go as deep as we want. It is only limited by the checkbook and the wife. LOL

[Portsie]

Originally Posted by Revmedia

You didn't say what kind of tank you plan to keep? Lots of people in this hobby are very "1 way only kind of people." Truth is the further into it you get, the more you realize there are one hundred different ways to get to the same goal.

Not to say there aren't "best practices," but as an example when I first got started (12 years ago), I had a 50gal fish only tank. No live rock, no sump, no refugium. I used a good canister filter and tap water with some water conditioner. Did weekly water changes. Did I have algae? Yeah a bit, but it never stopped me from having a good time learning as I went, and the fish all lived long and (presumably happy) lives. I live in Oregon though, and our water is pretty great, so YMMV.

If the reason you're not using RODI water is because of your budget, then use what you can afford. However, you can get distilled water at the grocery story for really cheap. My local fish store sells premixed salt water for like .50 a gallon, so for a 30gal tank it's pretty easy to afford.

All that to say, take everything anyone (including me) says with a grain of salt. Read a few books about the type of reef you want to keep. The internet is fantastic for getting opinions. Sometimes it's tough to get facts though.

+1 This is a great post

[Revmedia]

Originally Posted by gone fishin

The Rabbit hole can go as deep as we want. It is only limited by the checkbook and the wife. LOL

Amen to this!

[carl9son]

Update: Picked up 30lbs of rock, 50% of which is live. Can anybody give me a suggestion on what I should watch for and how frequently I should test the water? My assumption is that I'm looking at a month or more for the tank to cycle...?

Also, the guy at my local LFS said "we don't generally get green hair algae around here...red algae is more likely." I'm in Minnesota...and my reading doesn't suggest that algae is a geographically-dependent thing. True or false?

[sponger0]

Main thing to watch for are ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Enjoy watch your tank mature in its early stages. It's exciting to watch things start coming out of the live rock.

To say we dont get green hair algae is bogus. You can get green hair algae from dry rock.

And the red algae they are probably talking about is cyano, which isnt an algae at all. It's a bacteria.

[denny crain]

Get a test kit and start testing. I would wait until you see a diatom bloom, that's when you are close to the end.

[Orm Embar]

I'm late to the game, but thought I'd add my 2 cents-

1) I doubt very much that using unfiltered water will work. If you don't want to spend the money on a RO/DI unit currently (there are used/refurbished systems available), then store bought RO/DI water would seem to be a decent temporary measure. Unfortunaetly, in the long run this would cost more, but less so in the short term.

2) If you keep the canister very clean, I would see it as a once in a while measure for cleaning particulates out of the water (unrinsed sand being one of them). Alternately, you can use it as a chamber for carbon. I don't know if a canister would work for GFO or biopellets if you ever went that route.

3) Any refugium would be helpful, the larger the better. As to the 3 gallno vs the HOB, that depends on your budget and willingness to plumb stuff.

4) Agree with adding live rock. Options would be dry rock seeded with a piece of live rock, aquacultured (Tampa Bay Saltwater or Gulf View for stuff that literally sits in plots underwater off of Florida, Dr. Mac and others for rock that simply sits in huge tanks at a dealer's to develop bacteria), or wild (my personal bias would be to not do this to try to preserve natural reefs).

5) Agree with testing to monitor your cycle - check ammonia and nitrites. When they drop to undetectable, you can start adding stuff slowly.

6) Strongly agree with reading, reading, reading! There's a lot of info out there.

7) For a "not really a refugium," you could simply have some macroalgae in the tank as a way of keeping nitrates/phosphates down and prune it (tear bits off as it gets too big). Don't get Caulerpa (my bias, again) - it wrecked my last tank.

8) You can use a HOB skimmer in place of a HOB refugium, and then when you get the sump run the HOB skimmer on that. I'm looking to try something similar with a Reef Octopus BH-90 using that method (Lifereef overflow).

9) I try to keep my setups simple, so as an example my tank would have Tampa Bay live rock over (relatively) fine sand, a HOB overflow, a few powerheads, and a refugium and return pump in the sump. A HOB skimmer in the sump if I need it, and macroalgae in the refugium and display. If I'm feeling really simplistic, ditch half of that and go with live rock + sand, macroalgae in the tank, a few powerheads, and keep the fish load low and enjoy.

Good luck!