Cycling tank - chromis or ok to use clowns/cardinals

[gsiegel]

I have done much work in planning our new tank. I am not a fan of Chromis and also don't want to cycle with Damsels. Someone in my LFS mentioned that I can cycle with clowns and the cardinals I am planning to add. I was planning cycling with the Chromis but if the clowns and cardinals are hearty enough I would prefer that route. It is a 270 gallon fish only tank. Whether or not I was going to start with the chromis I was planning on adding 2 pair of clowns (2 nemos and 2 black and whites) and a mixture of about 7 pajama and bangai cardinals. Thoughts?

We knocked out a wall between our family room and dining room and the tank is going in between to run flush. We are psyched it is almost done. Photo of the stand is attached, tank should be going in with the canopy in a couple of weeks.

Thoughts on the cycling? Thx!

[billdogg]

PLEASE DO NOT CYCLE WITH ANY LIVING THING!!!!!

There is no need whatsoever to subject any living creatures to the stress that the cycle would put them through. Just drop in a cocktail shrimp and let it decompose. If you don't like that idea, a couple pinches of flake food per day for a couple weeks will do the trick also. You can even just use a capful of ammonia from the laundry room. Any of those will get your cycle going just fine. Once the Ammonia and Nitrite have gone back down to zero you will be ready to add a fish or two - but not until then.

HTH!

[gsiegel]

We are using the following equipment: thoughts:
- led vega lighting
- reef octupus protein skimmer
- aqua ultraviolet sterilizer
- RO/DI purifier
- LC 400 Gallon wet dry filter
- SE Reeflo snapper 2500 GPH pump
- SUP Mag Drive 3 water pump
- starphire glass tank
- artificial reef and lobster trap being built by Living Color in Fort Lauderdale, FL (the guys on the show Fish Tank Kings).

I am getting help in setting this up as I am new to this so I welcome any input. I am also going to have someone come in to service the tank as I learn the ropes.

Thanks again!

[gsiegel]

Originally Posted by billdogg

PLEASE DO NOT CYCLE WITH ANY LIVING THING!!!!!

There is no need whatsoever to subject any living creatures to the stress that the cycle would put them through. Just drop in a cocktail shrimp and let it decompose. If you don't like that idea, a couple pinches of flake food per day for a couple weeks will do the trick also. You can even just use a capful of ammonia from the laundry room. Any of those will get your cycle going just fine. Once the Ammonia and Nitrite have gone back down to zero you will be ready to add a fish or two - but not until then.

HTH!

---sorry - I meant after the tank has stabilized and cycled through. Which fish to add? How long of a process typically before adding fish? Would you add anything like the bottled bacteria as well prior to adding the fish?

[EllieSuz]

If your LFS is recommending using live fish, they are sadly not up with the current thought on the subject. This isn't unusual and I've heard of many stores that are stuck in the past on techniques and theories. Immediately become suspicious of advice given by this store and research your purchases on Reef Central first. In this forum there are permanent threads (stickies) at the top that should be read by all newcomers. The information there is up-to-date and accurate and written by the best Reef Central has to offer. Your equipment looks outstanding, except perhaps for the wet/dry filter. The spot you've chosen for the tank is gorgeous. I hope you'll share your progress with us.


To Reef Central

[gsiegel]

Originally Posted by EllieSuz

If your LFS is recommending using live fish, they are sadly not up with the current thought on the subject. This isn't unusual and I've heard of many stores that are stuck in the past on techniques and theories. Immediately become suspicious of advice given by this store and research your purchases on Reef Central first. In this forum there are permanent threads (stickies) at the top that should be read by all newcomers. The information there is up-to-date and accurate and written by the best Reef Central has to offer. Your equipment looks outstanding, except perhaps for the wet/dry filter. The spot you've chosen for the tank is gorgeous. I hope you'll share your progress with us.


To Reef Central

Thanks for the input and that is why I have come here 1st. I will wait for the tank to become stable before adding fish. I will check the stickies but what do you suggest to add prior to the fish?

When adding the fish is it ok to start with the clowns...or do you suggest I start with Chromis?

What do you suggest I do different with respect to the wet/dry filter? I will keep the forum posted with the progress.

Thx!

[billdogg]

I must have misundersod your original post. Once the tank is cycled, add whatever fish you like. I would strongly suggest that you add the least aggressive first, and finish with the most aggressive/territorial. Unless you like them, avoid damsels/chromis altogether. If you add the clowns first, they will happily make the entire tank their home and make introducing new fish more difficult. Cardinals like to be in a small school, and won't really bother anybody. Once you have a few fish, a clean up crew of one sort or another is a good idea. Avoid sand sifting stars - despite what some may say, they will almost always end up starving to death, but not until the have stripped the sandbed of all living things.

Make yourself a list of potentail additions and go from there. If you post the list, you will get plenty of help with the order in which to introduce them.

[gsiegel]

Thanks BillDogg. Here is the initial plan/roadmap:

1. Cardinals (pajama/banggai)
2. Oscelleras - 2 Nemo; 2 Black/White to intorduce together (I know they can be territorial but ok in a 270 gallon tank with plenty of hiding places?)
3. Pufferfish (yellow belly dog face? other suggestions?)
4. Sand sifting goby
5. Harlequin (love the Austrailian Harlequin)
6. Dwarf angels - coral, flame, lemon peel to add together
7. Xmas Wrasse
8. Magnificant Fox Face
9. Trigger - contemplating adding a Huma Huma as a juvenile but I know they are aggressive (otherwise considering a Niger but of course not as nice looking - thoughts?
10. Tangs - Naso, Sailfin, Achilles
11. Lg Angel (added as a juvenile about 3 inches suggested to me) - Emperor and Majestic

Also thoughts about Heniocus?

OK - have at it but be gentle. Thoughts on the order? selection? Anything else you suggest I should add?

[billdogg]

So I'm guessing that this will be fish only?

I really like puffers, but you can pretty much forget any shrimp or snails. Ditto with triggers. Otherwise it sounds like a nice group of fish. Add them slowly so the biological filtration can adjust to the load and you will be good to go. I am a big fan of introducing juvenile fish that can grow up together in the tank - much less cahnce of agression problems that way.

You might also consider a group of anthias - 1 male and 3 - 5 females - they will hang out together and look very nice.

[gsiegel]

Thanks - yes as to the fish only. I may try to add 2 small bubble anenomes with the chance that the oscellaras interact, but I understand that may not work.

I do plan to add the fish slowly as well. Thanks for the input and will also look into the anthias

[Putty]

Originally Posted by billdogg

PLEASE DO NOT CYCLE WITH ANY LIVING THING!!!!!

Knew this was coming.....lol

[MrTuskfish]

I would never put two pair of clowns in any tank. I've seen them kill each other in bigger tanks than yours. A Harlequin Tusk or almost any trigger will gladly eat Oscelleras Clowns, small anthias, or any goby. I'd wait at least a year to even consider an anemone. They are quite difficult and you have several fish that don't do well with them.

[MrTuskfish]

Just a little more drivel.

I hope you have a QT and plans to use it with every new fish; its vital, not just nice to have.

Don't judge the Niger trigger by the way it looks it the store. I've kept many triggers and have several now and my big Niger is probably my favorite. An adult Niger, under good lighting, is a magnificent fish. Great blue colors , red teeth that scare little kids (like the blue teeth on my Harlequin tusks), and the amazing way they move by undulating their dorsal & anal fins. My big Niger is always a favorite with visitors, and probably the cheapest fish I own.The Picasso is a gorgeous fish too; no reason you couldn't keep both. However, like I said above, both of these triggers will eat small fish, especially when grown.

[MuffsAbby]

If you like both the orange/white and the black/white ocellaris clowns, then rather than adding a pair of each, you could just add one of each. If you get them as juveniles, they will pair up. That way, you will have both, but without the problems that arise by adding two pairs to the same tank. Also, I second Mr.Tuskfish's recommendation for a QT.

Finally, it wasn't clear from your posts...but will you have any live rock in your tank, or were you planning to go with the artificial reef and the wet/dry filter only?

[Tmoriarty]

Puffer fish get quite large (your tank is big enough) but once grown like to snack on small fish just like the triggers (I fed my dogface small chromis on occasion) so any of those fish (including clowns) are potential snacks once the puffer is big enough.

I would avoid wet/dry filters, while they work they are much higher maintenance than a LR filter or natural filtration system.

If you are adding occellaris clowns (looks like thats your plan) I would not worry about them being first and being aggressive to other fish, they are one of if not the most docile clownfish most of the time.

You can try to keep more then 2 in the tank but I would not expect to keep more then 1 pair that is actually paired, even in a large tank. Two that pair up and two that are juveniles may work with plenty of territory (I have three together but also have 5 large Anemone including two magnificas).

False and true percs are interchangeable so if you like a false perc and a true perc you can add them together and a pairing is not at all uncommon. Triggers and pufferfish are messy fish, if you keep them I would shoot for a larger skimmer than needed to help deal with the bioload, while nitrates are not an issue in a fish only system, they are in any tank containing anemones, shoot for 20 or less as a maximum number if you wish to keep anemone.

Best of luck, great advice on this forum but take everything with a grain of salt, after all these are all just opinions and personal experience, some greater than others.

[gsiegel]

Thanks all for the feedback
- I am planning on having a QT tank
***-Thanks for the input on the filters and skimmers - I will certainly inquire more about that but is the equipment I listed not sufficient? What would you suggest instead?***

- it is going to be an artificial reef structure; but in the center of the tank will be a manufactured lobster trap (no lobsters) wherein I may incorporate some live rock

- thanks for the advice with the clowns and I may do that now where I add 1 oscellaras and 1 black/white

- I am also thinking of adding one of the small pufferfish and not a larger one so hopefully that will make for a "friendlier" environment. I like the personalities of these fish so would like to add some sort of puffer.

- do you think having a Niger and a Huma-Huma (added as juveniles) is asking for 2 bulls in a china shop?

Great feedback again and please keep any other thoughts re:my equipment; fish selections coming.

***also - I have read that when cycling the tank to add a raw piece of shrimp, and let it sit for about 5 days and then discard. Then to let the water sit for up to a few weeks. While there is the excitement of adding fish, I will go about this slowly and the "right way." What do you suggest during the initial stages???***

[reeferstace]

Two of the tangs you listed need 8' tanks (RC recommended size). You also have some other pretty large fish on your list with large angel, foxface and triggers.

Your tank is 270g but how long is it?

[Zappo]

In order to cycle the tank, something has to rot and produce ammonia (unless you add ammonia directly of course) and raw shrimp is the most common way to do it. Just toss it in and leave it there until ammonia spikes up.

As for triggers being like a bull in a china shop, they do tend to be aggressive fish. If it were me, I'd skip the cardinals (too peaceful) and get larger clowns like maroons. The sand sifting goby might be safe with his caves and tunnels, but the other fish will need to deal with occasional aggression. In general, avoid anything that will fit in the larger fish's mouths. And remember to go by their adult size, not the size when you bought them. Fish don't make lasting friendships. They get along great until one fish realizes that it can swallow the other one whole. Then the friendship is over.

[MrTuskfish]

An interesting thread. Some comments:IMO & IME; UV is a total waste of money for most tanks. The idea that UV will eliminate parasites, like ich, is simply not true. UV helps with water clarification, but that's about it. UV is also very touchy to even help with anything; its bulb & sleeve need constant attention and the flow has to be exact. Dealers love to sell them; but judging from the posts on our forum, very few folks use them. I haven't owned one in 20+ years.

With no/little LR , you don't seem to have any media to culture anaerobic bacteria and this will result in high nitrate. Nitrate, at moderate levels (say<60-80) ppm are fine for a fish-only tank; but not inverts. I don't think your planning on any anyway. WCs should keep nitrate at an acceptable level for fish.

Little or no LR and artificial decor is almost certainly going to create an algae problem. high nitrates contribute to this problem. I have never used the artificial decor, but remember the days before LR when most tanks were using dead skeletal coral . This looked OK for a few days. But the dead coral needed to be bleached, or left in the sun for a couple of days, very often---a real job. Although I have no direct knowledge; I see your system looking OK for a while. But algae grows on about everything and your tank is not ever going to look like the day it was set up. I don't know how this artificial stuff gets cleaned; but this is going to become a dreaded chore. I'd like to see a artificial reef tank that was not cleaned in a month. Few folks on our forum have them and I'm sure there are some great ones; but the maintenance must be constant and a lot of work. This may be why a UV is being recommended; UV will kill some algae spores, but won't come close to eliminating the problem.

This sure isn't intended to be overly-critical; and , as I said, I have no direct knowledge of just how the artificial coral works out. But, I'd sure try to find some folks who have used this plan long term. maybe post a new thread asking for input.