question about bio pellets stripping tank

[nfored]

So it seems that there is a chance that bio pellets will strip all the nitrates out of my tank thous making it hard to keep some coral. There seems to be a lot of diy reactors to reduce the flow through the reactor to slow the consumption. However my question coming from planted tanks is could you not simply does minute amounts of nitrates.

I was thinking about using a spare 4 stage RO unit to basically house both my bio pellets and gfo, and then while my tank is empty figure out how hungry the pellets get after they are working and then setup dosing of nitrate. Maybe dash a week of the powder.

Or are my fears of it stripping my tank unwarranted as my friend keeps trying to tell me.

[rldcpa]

The option would be to reduce the number of pellets so it does not overstrip.

[nfored]

Ah so much easier, so maybe only put enough pellets in the tank for say a 55 gallon system if I have a 75. and then just monitor nitrate reduction to fine tun the amount of pellets to use.

I love you guys here always great advice.

[swcc]

if you run a proper skimmer, the chance of needing any carbon dosing goes way down to the point of not at all necessary. biopellets and carbon dosing is there for people that do not keep their tanks clean, or properly stocked(overstocking dillema) or run proper filtration(skimmers) correctly.

[nfored]

I have a coral life super skimmer 120 with a fishing line nodded quiteone 2200 so needless to day while it works its not the best skimmer. I had a 55 setup with only a 13 inch snowflake eel and always had 20 ppm. So I guess the skimmer really sucks or the live rock sucks. I have been looking into a better skimmer, do yoy think that and more live rock will help and remove the need for bio pellets

[pompeyjohn]

Originally Posted by swcc

if you run a proper skimmer, the chance of needing any carbon dosing goes way down to the point of not at all necessary. biopellets and carbon dosing is there for people that do not keep their tanks clean, or properly stocked(overstocking dillema) or run proper filtration(skimmers) correctly.

Wow. That is quite the statement. Care to expand on your skimmer only approach? I know a lot of reefers with great systems that dose carbon.

[rldcpa]

Generally I see tanks either use GFO or bio pellet reactors.

[swcc]

Originally Posted by pompeyjohn

Wow. That is quite the statement. Care to expand on your skimmer only approach? I know a lot of reefers with great systems that dose carbon.

over 20 years....modified berlin method. I use crushed coral even(gasp). So, how is it done... easy... the once or twice a month small water changes(5% or 10% depending), well, I siphon out detritus from the substrate as well as water... there ya go, remove the poop, run a great, proper sized skimmer, and no need to add any nutrients to lower other nutrients. Never ran gfo either. occasionally, I'll stick a bag of GAC in the sump for a couple weeks. There is a little more to it, like proper initial cycling and curing(cooking if you will) of liverock as well. Also, waiting for nitrifying bacteria to establish in tank before stocking is another key. It is all in setting up the system correctly and keeping it clean(siphon out the waste).
Phosphate and nitrate testing... clear water.. no reading. On new tanks I set up, I will go through an occasional trace(below 2ppm) nitrate reading early on when the tank is still establishing itself.

while I am not at all against the use of biopellets or carbon dosing, I personally would suggest to anyone looking to add them to look at improving export first and foremost... Experienced reefers that do carbon dose, do so to take a very low nutrient system down to ULN. If used to lower high nitrates/phosphates, it is flat out being used as a way to mask current export issues that should be addressed first.

[nfored]

Not sure I fully expect to be able to have zero nitrates with just good skimming and cleaning. Can someone who has been using bio pellets longer then 6 months and whom has the proper test kits to read <1ppm nitrate tell me if they experienced the stripping issue? and if so what did they do about it? did you just reduce the amount of the pellets like suggested?

I am just trying to figure out what to do for nitrate and phosphate now before I start adding fish. The rock I have I am sure is laced with nitrate and I don't want to re start my cycle to acid bath it. I at first thought that I only need bio pellets and not gfo until I read that if my nitrate levels dont grow fast enough that phosphates reduction will not work as quickly so you need gfo.

I must admit I like the idea cycling for nitrate bacteria but, I am not sure the base rock I have now is porous enough.

[swcc]

Originally Posted by nfored

Not sure I fully expect to be able to have zero nitrates with just good skimming and cleaning. Can someone who has been using bio pellets longer then 6 months and whom has the proper test kits to read <1ppm nitrate tell me if they experienced the stripping issue? and if so what did they do about it? did you just reduce the amount of the pellets like suggested?

I am just trying to figure out what to do for nitrate and phosphate now before I start adding fish. The rock I have I am sure is laced with nitrate and I don't want to re start my cycle to acid bath it. I at first thought that I only need bio pellets and not gfo until I read that if my nitrate levels dont grow fast enough that phosphates reduction will not work as quickly so you need gfo.

I must admit I like the idea cycling for nitrate bacteria but, I am not sure the base rock I have now is porous enough.

your reading too much and putting the cart before the horse... perhaps concentrate on reading about the stage your at...cycling and then properly stocking a tank. (Not meaning to sound harsh here so please do not take that personally).
ok.. you do not need to be dosing carbon or using biopellets period... you have not even finished cycling your tank.
no your rock is not 'laced' with nitrate...(if anything you have phosphate that is bound to the calcium carbonate of the rock). Nitrate is the byproduct of ammonia and nitrite reduction from bacteria processes happening in your tank.
your phosphate and nitrate levels are there because you are cycling your tank .. the tank needs time to develop nitrifying bacteria. If you leave the tank alone and were to watch the cycle over the next few weeks... the nitrates will start to drop as the bacteria develop...
You are at the stage where you need to do a some decent size water changes and zero out nitrate and PO4 in the water....then you start stocking slowly... then a year from now when the tank is mature, your stocked up, have become a more experience reefer....then if you have a low nutrient tank and want to go ULN for sps...well... this is where carbon dosing comes in.
How do you know you cannot keep zero nitrate with skimming and a siphon??? you have not even established your tank yet.

now as far as carbon dosing/biopellets goes...well it is tank specific not one size fits all... seeing as you don't even have a bioload everything will change as you continue to increase bioload and stock your tank... for now....get through the cycle, get the water to read zero on po4 and nitrate(water changes before stocking), stock slow, learn to practice good sound husbandry, get to know how to run your system well through experience.

[crn005]

So it seems that there is a chance that bio pellets will strip all the nitrates out of my tank thous making it hard to keep some coral. There seems to be a lot of diy reactors to reduce the flow through the reactor to slow the consumption. However my question coming from planted tanks is could you not simply does minute amounts of nitrates.

You're thinking of it the wrong way. In planted tanks, nitrate is good for the plants. Higher amounts of nitrate are the opposite for corals. You want them as low as possible.

I had a 55 setup with only a 13 inch snowflake eel and always had 20 ppm. So I guess the skimmer really sucks or the live rock sucks. I have been looking into a better skimmer, do yoy think that and more live rock will help and remove the need for bio pellets

Live rock is used to filter out ammonia and nitrite, not nitrate. It doesn't have enough of the bacteria (anaerobic nitrospira I do believe) to be considered useful in reducing nitrates. That's where water changes, refugiums, or algae scrubbers come in.

Not sure I fully expect to be able to have zero nitrates with just good skimming and cleaning. Can someone who has been using bio pellets longer then 6 months and whom has the proper test kits to read <1ppm nitrate tell me if they experienced the stripping issue? and if so what did they do about it? did you just reduce the amount of the pellets like suggested?

Absolutely possible if you plan your tank correctly and keep up on maintenance. This is the most popular style at the moment for keeping the water where it should be. However, more and more people are switching to, or assisting their skimmers, with algae turfer scrubbers.

If you leave the tank alone and were to watch the cycle over the next few weeks... the nitrates will start to drop as the bacteria develop...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't his nitrates actually rise as the cycle is completed? Live rock is not used as a nitrate remover. Having said that, nfored, I agree with swcc. You need to allow the bacteria to develop. Down the road, if you're still struggling with nitrate levels, then you can address that issue then. For now, let Mother Nature do her thing.

[nfored]

I say my rocks are laced with nitrates as this tank is not new its over 1 year old and was always at about 20ppm nitrate. however it crashed due to heater malfunction that cooked everything the water was steaming and unreadable by any thermometer.

I understand exactly where i am in my cycle, I also understand starting out with proper filtration. why wait for nitrate and phosphate to build up before deciding to do something? why not start doing something now while its still cycling. Wouldn't that make it easier in the long run to do one big water change get levels really low and have filtration to keep them from rising? for me even with ro/di my nitrate from the ro unit is 5ppm -10ppm so water changes are far less effective.

As far as nitrate dosing i was talking about stripping meaning 0.0000ppm nitrate, i have read that some coral need some nitrate 0.5ppm to maybe as high as 1ppm. This part I am unsure about i know little about reefs and I am trying to learn, reading is how one learns. i am not a noob to fish keeping I understand cycling and build up.

I do like the idea of algae scrubbers and have considered them, but I really didn't want to be cleaning the screen every week sounds like its nasty smelly.

[nfored]

edit that 5 - 10 ppm is with a brand new membrane and new prefilters and new di. my tap water is 20ppm nitrate before ro-di

[swcc]

Originally Posted by nfored

I say my rocks are laced with nitrates as this tank is not new its over 1 year old and was always at about 20ppm nitrate. however it crashed due to heater malfunction that cooked everything the water was steaming and unreadable by any thermometer.

I understand exactly where i am in my cycle, I also understand starting out with proper filtration. why wait for nitrate and phosphate to build up before deciding to do something? why not start doing something now while its still cycling. Wouldn't that make it easier in the long run to do one big water change get levels really low and have filtration to keep them from rising? for me even with ro/di my nitrate from the ro unit is 5ppm -10ppm so water changes are far less effective.

As far as nitrate dosing i was talking about stripping meaning 0.0000ppm nitrate, i have read that some coral need some nitrate 0.5ppm to maybe as high as 1ppm. This part I am unsure about i know little about reefs and I am trying to learn, reading is how one learns. i am not a noob to fish keeping I understand cycling and build up.

I do like the idea of algae scrubbers and have considered them, but I really didn't want to be cleaning the screen every week sounds like its nasty smelly.

sorry about the bad heater..malfunctioning equipment can certainly make one want to pull their hair out.
If you understand the cycle then you know that the cycle is best served if you do not attempt to limit bacteria growth. The post above is incorrect live rock does indeed provide for nitrifying bacteria to grow.
Keep the skimmer off, lights off, no carbon dosing, gfo or gac and let the bacteria work on the nutrients available in the live rock and substrate. then stock slowly.
Yes dosing carbon can strip to zero and this is where you will need to experiment on how much to use to get the right balance. Thing is the balance will continue to change when stocking the tank. Carbon dosing is meant for a mature tank... your starting back at zero again so everything I stated above still holds true. wait for the tank to mature before you put the biopellets on line.
What skimmer are you running? this is a 55 correct?
next question... why do you think you had 20ppm nitrate when it was setup before? The answer is not 'because I was not carbon dosing or using biopellets'. So, what might have caused the higher nitrates?

[swcc]

Originally Posted by crn005

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't his nitrates actually rise as the cycle is completed? Live rock is not used as a nitrate remover. Having said that, nfored, I agree with swcc. You need to allow the bacteria to develop. Down the road, if you're still struggling with nitrate levels, then you can address that issue then. For now, let Mother Nature do her thing.

Well after the initial short cycle of ammonia and nitrite zeroing..yes nitrates have risen... I am a firm believer that at this point the cycle is not over(because it isn't).. give the tank another month and nitrifying bacteria will start developing and the nitrate will start to go down. Now the bacteria cycle is more complete. At this point is when I start looking to help the bacteria out by changing out cycled water, removing detritus from the cycle and looking to stock the tank..
ready for another critical factor... do not cycle live rock with substrate... here is why... the nutrient rich rocks will shed detritus from bacterial processes, the detritus(loaded with phosphate) ends up in hidden in the substrate... now, cycle the rock without the substrate and one can see the detritus on the bare bottom and remove it, then add in the substrate. After substrate is added(no need for live substrate but live is fine none the less), and after a week to make sure parameters are good... then your ready to stock. This little difference in cycling can make a huge difference in the future nutrient levels(phosphate and nitrate) of the tank.

[nfored]

I thank all of you for your help and my lack of understanding. I will just wait and see how it goes as you suggest. Cycling my rock without sand was not known in time, as the tank has already completed that part of the cycle. proccing 2ppm -3ppm of ammonia in a day with no signs of nitrite.

I am going to be putting another 50ish lbs of dry rock in this week, this time in the display tank which is currently just water. So hopefully that will give me more room for growth.

I am running a coral life super skimmer 125, the tank is 75 with a 55 gallon sump, and I have a drilled 20 gallon i have been thinking of adding as a fuge.

I think i had the high nitrates for 3 reasons.

first i started with tap water which had 20ppm. I did finally move to rodi but that still had 5 to 10.
second i bought all the ocks and sand from a existing tank and to be honest looking at it I am suprised anything could live in it.
3rd I would guess not proper up keep on my end but I am not sure of that I did try to keep the sand bed clean.

[swcc]

Originally Posted by nfored

I thank all of you for your help and my lack of understanding. I will just wait and see how it goes as you suggest. Cycling my rock without sand was not known in time, as the tank has already completed that part of the cycle. proccing 2ppm -3ppm of ammonia in a day with no signs of nitrite.

I am going to be putting another 50ish lbs of dry rock in this week, this time in the display tank which is currently just water. So hopefully that will give me more room for growth.

I am running a coral life super skimmer 125, the tank is 75 with a 55 gallon sump, and I have a drilled 20 gallon i have been thinking of adding as a fuge.

I think i had the high nitrates for 3 reasons.

first i started with tap water which had 20ppm. I did finally move to rodi but that still had 5 to 10.
second i bought all the ocks and sand from a existing tank and to be honest looking at it I am suprised anything could live in it.
3rd I would guess not proper up keep on my end but I am not sure of that I did try to keep the sand bed clean.

as you can see the tap water was a big cause...
knowing now to use ro/di, your largest weakness is your current skimmer....
I would in no way ever carbon dose without a bigger, better skimmer... that skimmer is not even effective enough for your tank without carbon dosing. right now, It would be in your best interest to get yourself a better skimmer... for a 75 good choices would be at the low cost side a vertex in100 or a reef octo nwb150... going from there, reef octo diablo xs 160, seaside aquatics cs7, reef dynamics ins135(my personal favorite). Bet if you had been running one of these skimmers the 5-10 nitrate would have been more like trace to none with proper feeding(twice a day food consumed in less than 5 min) and husbandry.

[SushiGirl]

Your RO/DI should be 0 nitrates, something isn't set up right if you're still having 5 to 10 nitrates coming out of an RO/DI unit.

If you want to keep SPS, then you'll want nitrates lower, but if you want to keep fish/softies/LPS, 20 is not high. I would definitely get a better skimmer, though, because you don't even had bioload yet and are at 20. Fish will bump it up.

We have a 55 gallon softy/LPS tank with only 3 fish that everything is thriving in and it runs 20-40 ppm nitrates (depending on how heavily I feed). We put biopellets on it when it was consistently 60-80 ppm & almost killed everything in the tank. We took them offline & it took a month for everything to recover & start thriving again.

So it's really going to depend on what you want to keep. You really do need to figure out why you still have nitrates in your RO/DI water.

[nfored]

Okay so tossing skimmer in trash is the only option I would rather deal with that now then later. Here is my delema space. I have a 55 gallon sump but i have around 60 maybe even 70lbs of rock in there. Everything was laid out for this HOB skimmer. are there any HOB skimmers that will work" or can I some how plumb an in sump skimmer to work out side the sump with only the pump inside?

I guess now is the time if any to re arage the rock to make room, or I guess I can move one of the largest rocks into the tank.

[SushiGirl]

Why would you plumb an in-sump skimmer to be external? Just buy an external skimmer to begin with. We have an external skimmer because the way our sump is laid out there's not enough room for a skimmer in the skimmer section (it had a crappy "built-in" that it came with).

[swcc]

Originally Posted by nfored

Okay so tossing skimmer in trash is the only option I would rather deal with that now then later. Here is my delema space. I have a 55 gallon sump but i have around 60 maybe even 70lbs of rock in there. Everything was laid out for this HOB skimmer. are there any HOB skimmers that will work" or can I some how plumb an in sump skimmer to work out side the sump with only the pump inside?

I guess now is the time if any to re arage the rock to make room, or I guess I can move one of the largest rocks into the tank.

get rid of the rock or at least some of it and set up the sump for a good skimmer. it is not necessary and really only serves to collect detritus anyways.

[SushiGirl]

The rock holds nitrifying bacteria, so it serves an important purpose; however, if you have plenty of rock in your display it wouldn't cause that big of a bacteria dent to pull just a few from the sump (which has plenty) to make room for a skimmer. Rearranging the sump or putting the pieces in the display is a good idea if it won't overcrowd your display.

[swcc]

Originally Posted by SushiGirl

The rock holds nitrifying bacteria, so it serves an important purpose; however, if you have plenty of rock in your display it wouldn't cause that big of a bacteria dent to pull just a few from the sump (which has plenty) to make room for a skimmer. Rearranging the sump or putting the pieces in the display is a good idea if it won't overcrowd your display.

and is a detritus trap... plenty of surface area for bacteria without it...he is cycling the tank, no worries about just taking it out and setting up a sump for a good skimmer.

[nfored]

I would be foolish imho to not us the rock I have in some place, cheap rock or not it serves a purpose. I also don't want to be the guy with he rock wall in the display. Which is why all the rock I have is in the sump, I have a look in mind for the rock in the display which is why its only going to be about 50lbs or so and will be modifying it to look right. With that said if there is no good external or hob protein skimmers then I guess I will make room. I might have to wait a bit and shell out extra for a space saver reef octopus.

Also not that I have a doubt as i dont, i know this skimmer sucks but in design its not a whole lot different then the reef octopus. I wonder could it be modded and if it was how would I know if its a good skimmer? if you

i mean if you didnt know which is which and you had two tanks one with a reefocto and one with a corallife how would you know that the RO was better? is it the way the bubbles look in the body? I have noticed pictures of "good" skimmers seem like solid white inside almost like diluted milk, where as mine looks like water mixed with bubbles. Also mine only occasionally fills up with stuff even before the heater malfunction.

[SushiGirl]

We have an external Reef Octopus. It works great.