LR cycle question

[Reef pig]

I will be setting up a 125 mixed reef tank with live sand and all the goodies. Here's the question, once I put the sand in (going half live/ half dead) should I go ahead and do 70lbs of dry base rock and 70lbs of live rock all at once to help it cycle? Next question, when this tank if full of rock and water, should I fire up the refugim also? All answers will be greatly appreciated!!

[thegrun]

You definitely want all the rock in the tank from the beginning (live and dry). I'm not a big fan of live sand as it often contains more dead than live organics. Your live rock will host all the worms, pods....that you will need, no need for live sand, just dry. I would wait for your ammonia levels to rise and then drop before adding algae to your refugium but any rock you plan on keeping in there should be in place from the start.

[SushiGirl]

Cycle the entire thing at once, all sand and rock, with the refugium online. If there's dead stuff in the live sand, it'll just help you cycle just like die off from live rock will.

[keithhays]

Setup everything you are going to use except carbon and lights and let it run for 3 months. During the 3 months, you will need a source of ammonia in the tank for the cycle to take place; Ammonium Chloride, or pure ammonia. Either there will have been enough of the types of bacteria in the live rock to carry out this process or you will add a bottled bacteria to help it along. However, you cycle, the levels of ammonia and nitrite will rise so high in the tank anything living other than the bacteria that eats ammonia and nitrite will die off (including higher life forms in the live rock and sand) thus intensifying the cycle. This is what's supposed to happen. You will want to monitor that the amounts of ammonia and nitrite to see that they don't get over 5ppm and more importantly that in the final month nitrite drops to zero and nitrates begin to build. Once all this happens, do a 100% water change and begin slowly adding livestock.
If you setup the tank and do not do something similar to the above, you will just have a 3 month old tank that has not cycled and the cycle will begin just as the above, but with your newly bought fish in the tank. In which case, 3 months later you will have a cycled tank, but the ammonia will be supplied by these dead fish. This last bit is a tad tongue in cheek, but usually is needed. Have fun, hope this helps.

[SushiGirl]

Why a 100% water change?

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by SushiGirl

Why a 100% water change?

because nitrates will be pushing 100 ppm about this time and you don't want your live rock sitting in that for longer than needed; it will start to soak it up...and you will soon have to turn on your lights. If you turn on the lights with elevated nitrates, you will have a massive green algae outbreak.

[gone fishin]

Originally Posted by keithhays

because nitrates will be pushing 100 ppm about this time and you don't want your live rock sitting in that for longer than needed; it will start to soak it up...and you will soon have to turn on your lights. If you turn on the lights with elevated nitrates, you will have a massive green algae outbreak.

I really don't think a 100% WC is necessary. the nitrates should fall on their own and a small WC will do. In the beginning there is going to be diatoms and algae until the tank matures this will take longer than 3 months. just my 2cents

[Reef pig]

Thanks for all the answers! 100% water change doesn't make since tho, wouldn't that just start it all over again? So once it's all on line and running, do I need to ghost feed or anything like that? I'll monitor all the chemistry during the process and once everything has dropped I will take a water sample to my LFS for a final opinion. What should I expect in the tank during this process and should I run my lights?

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by gone fishin

I really don't think a 100% WC is necessary. the nitrates should fall on their own and a small WC will do. In the beginning there is going to be diatoms and algae until the tank matures this will take longer than 3 months. just my 2cents

I like nitrate conversations because I think it is generally the cause of most peoples frustration in the hobby whether they know it or not. It is in fact the frustration of almost all large scale fisheries and water facilities. I would agree that a mature tank requires significantly longer than 3 months, but generally most tanks will have begun their amm to nitrite to nitrate process in this amount of time.
There are some scenarios where nitrates would then begin to fall and I think are worth looking at for new hobbyists.
I think the primary reason the hobbyist would begin to read lower nitrates in the weeks or months after the initial cycle has begun relates to the uptake of the nitrates by by plant life (green algae). This will eventually stabilize within a closed system so that there is exactly the right amount of green algae in the tank as the nitrates will support. When this happens, test kits will read nitrates at a lower reading. This is the reason most people think that having a bunch a green algae is a normal part of the cycle. What happens at this point is that the hobbyist will think that there is some other more esoteric problem happening in the aquarium, but since Nitrates are reading lower, nothing is done to lower them. Thus, more nitrates will build in the system and more algae will grow to consume it assuming healthy photosynthesis.
Let's contrast this with what happens on an ocean reef. When you get a reading of near zero nitrates, that actually means what it says. This is because water is constantly flushing over the reef from the open ocean which contains near zero nutrients. Anytime, it registers higher, there is usually an outside influence such as deep water up welling or on shore run-off. If the outside influence is very short lived it will cause no harm to the reef. If it is longer term, the reef will begin to die as it becomes over grown with various algae.

The next way that nitrates may begin to come down is if you had the equivalent of the deep ocean floor which means a deep sink of near anoxic material where nitrates would continue the cycle into nitrogen gas. In the ocean this is generally happening thousands or tens of thousands of feet below where the reef is i.e. the waters are not mixing generally. Without this great distance this effect is hard to achieve in the aquarium, but several systems are available to do it. One is the deep sand bed which attempts to directly replicate this process and there are many people who successfully achieve the balance needed. The problem of course is the slightest disturbance of the deep sand bed will release hydrogen sulfide into the water column which is deadly to almost everything except the bacteria turning the nitrate into nitrogen gas. All other systems attempt to create this near anoxic condition in a slightly different way. These generally are using the microscopic pores of some material such as live rock, Seachem Matrix etc to create the same anoxic zone is more stable way. This generally tends to work very well so long as there is sufficient quantity to cover the amount of nitrogen entering the system(food) and the pores do not become clogged.

A new way that is somewhat recent is to feed the nitrate consume bacteria their sulfur food directly in a column with just enough oxygen to keep from producing hydrogen sulfide. I am about to implement this system myself; we will see how successful it is. There are also various other systems where a slightly different type of system based on using a carbon food source gets a layer of different bacteria to consume nitrates long enough for the bacteria themselves to be moved into the water column and then to be directly skimmed out of the water with the nitrates. Slight less efficient, but non the less effective.

And finally, and the most often used and/or neglected is directly changing out water. If you have 50 ppm of nitrates that have accumulated over a time period and you replace 50% of the water, you will then have 25ppm of nitrates in the system. Or, what is more useful, if you are adding .01ppm of nitrates per day and you remove that amount of water (or say 30% water change per month), you would presumably end up with near zero nitrates assuming you started with zero nitrates. If however, you start our with 50 or 100 ppm of nitrates and remove the same amount of water, you will never get to zero nitrates and you will have lots of coral killing algae. I believe there are some articles which contain the exact math on this, but you get the general idea.
The general idea is this:
1. Nitrate measurable by any test kit used by hobbyist that registers above zero is bad for the aquarium.
2. Get the aquarium to near zero as possible as soon as possible.
3. Pick some system or combination of systems to keep it that way.
4. Measuring Nitrate with algae growing in the aquarium will give you a radically inaccurate reading of nitrate in the system.

[gone fishin]

A 100% WC wouldn't necessarily start everything over again but it would upset things most likely. The vast majority of the bacteria we want will be on your rock and the sand. what is in the water column is negligible in comparison. I would just drop the deli shrimp in the tank and start the waiting game for your spikes. There is no hard rule how long this takes as each tank has its own personality. I would not run my lights the bacteria doesn't really need it but you can if you want. towards the end of the cycle you will most likely see alot diatoms (brown stuff) just show up they should go away and you will see some algae start show up. I like to set my QT tank up and running while I am cycling the DT, so I can put a fish or 2 in once the cycle is complete. This also gives me something to do so I keep my hands out of the DT LOL. Just take your time lay a good foundation and you will be off to a good start. Good luck

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by Reef pig

Thanks for all the answers! 100% water change doesn't make since tho, wouldn't that just start it all over again? So once it's all on line and running, do I need to ghost feed or anything like that? I'll monitor all the chemistry during the process and once everything has dropped I will take a water sample to my LFS for a final opinion. What should I expect in the tank during this process and should I run my lights?

Water changes have no effect on the bacteria you are attempting to grow in the system during your initial cycle. These bacteria live on the surface of all of your substrate rocks etc, but not in the water column. Whether or not you need to "ghost feed" is dependent on how much dead material you have in the tank at the start. You will be able to tell because within a couple weeks you will see ammonia get higher and higher followed many weeks later by Ammonia dropping to zero and Nitrites getting higher and higher. By about the 3 month nitrites will begin to dropped radically and nitrates will begin getting higher. When nitrites are zero, there is no more to consume for the nitrate producing bacteria and you can begin any level of water changes that brings you to near zero nitrates. Do not run your lights during this process or you will produce green algae and upset the whole process. You final readings should be amm = zero, nitrites = zero, nitrates near zero for coral.

[gone fishin]

While I agree keeping Nitrate as low as possible is a good thing, alot of the techniques you described are advanced for the average new person getting started out. I personally believe we will never eliminate all of the algae out of our tanks. I have come to accept this as part of my regimen. I do however strive to keep it to a minimum.

I believe that alot of algae in new tanks come from two sources and usually combined. 1) over feeding the tank and 2) lights on for to long. Both of these things contribute to most of the algae out breaks we see here.

I use skimming and Cheato along with WC to control these things. While my tank is not algae free it is by no means over run and it gives the hermits something to eat besides my corals.

[Reef pig]

So once the rocks ( 70lbs live and 70lbs dry base), water is mixed in tank and ref and my live and dry sand are in place Just let it run for atleast 3 months while watching the the chemistry? I've got nothing but time for this set up and want to do it right. I shouldnt need to toss in a shrimp because their should be plenty of die off from the LR and live sand right?

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by gone fishin

While I agree keeping Nitrate as low as possible is a good thing, alot of the techniques you described are advanced for the average new person getting started out. I personally believe we will never eliminate all of the algae out of our tanks. I have come to accept this as part of my regimen. I do however strive to keep it to a minimum.

I believe that alot of algae in new tanks come from two sources and usually combined. 1) over feeding the tank and 2) lights on for to long. Both of these things contribute to most of the algae out breaks we see here.

I use skimming and Cheato along with WC to control these things. While my tank is not algae free it is by no means over run and it gives the hermits something to eat besides my corals.

Yes, I think most of us are somewhat less than the ideal situation which makes the whole process a little more "fun" while we strive to get to the ideal. Hopefully, by leaving the water change answer to the end, it will have the most impact since that is the easiest method. It's funny whenever anyone visits my aquarium, they inevitably spend more time watching the hermit crabs.

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by Reef pig

So once the rocks ( 70lbs live and 70lbs dry base), water is mixed in tank and ref and my live and dry sand are in place Just let it run for atleast 3 months while watching the the chemistry? I've got nothing but time for this set up and want to do it right. I shouldnt need to toss in a shrimp because their should be plenty of die off from the LR and live sand right?

I would say a yes, but let me know if you have cured your live rock on site.

[gone fishin]

I would toss in the shrimp to keep things moving along.

Keith I enjoyed the respectful conversation, so hard to find now days it seems. There is indeed many different ways to do things in our tanks.

Merry Christmas to both of you and your families.

[Reef pig]

I will toss in the shrimp, one or two? A raw bait shrimp or a cooked shrimp from the grocery store? All live rock is cured at the LFS and the dry base rock is heavily rinsed in tap water then air dried. And no lights on in the DT or refugium during the entire cycle process correct?

[gone fishin]

Yes I would leave lights off. I would go with one raw shrimp. You will get some die off on your live rock during the transport and transfer procedure. I might mention this is a good time to look for any unwanted hitchhikers on your LR and deal with them.

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by Reef pig

I will toss in the shrimp, one or two? A raw bait shrimp or a cooked shrimp from the grocery store? All live rock is cured at the LFS and the dry base rock is heavily rinsed in tap water then air dried. And no lights on in the DT or refugium during the entire cycle process correct?

I would either go with the shrimp or pure ammonia @3ppm.

[Cymonous]

Just put in one piece of shrimp. It doesn't matter if it is cooked or raw. If your live rock was air dried, you will have dieoff. You can have all of the lights off or you can turn them on. If you turn them on, you will have a larger algae bloom during the cycle. I have never heard of anyone doing a 100% water change after a cycle, nor 100ppm of Nitrates. If you do end up with that much Nitrates, you are doing something wrong. My nitrates since starting my tank never got higher than 20ppm. Just do a 50% water change when your cycle is done.

[Reef pig]

Usually transport live rock in a sealed bag with no water, I live 15 mins from the LFS. I usually give it a quick fresh water rinse with the base rock. While the base rock air dries the LR is already in the tank. I'll leave the lights off and peek in with a little flash light.