Sump help please!!!

[Katiehayes]

I know this has been asked before but I have a 55 display and plan on a 40b sump I would like to have it setup with a drain/skimmer then the refugium then return. I want it very simple and I don't know height on baffles or space between them thanks

[rwing5959]

I also have a 55 gallon that I built a sump for about 2 months ago. I had never built one before, but it turned out really good. Go to this website and you should be on the right track. Good luck! Rick. http://www.melevsreef.com/55g/55sump.html

[Katiehayes]

I did check that site out but there wasn't one that had the setup I wanted thanks though

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Katiehayes

I did check that site out but there wasn't one that had the setup I wanted thanks though

Did it occur to you that you may be wanting something that is not a very good design?

What exactly are you wanting? Sump design is so simple, there are not even any classes around for it.

40 breeders make good sumps. Skimmer section ~ 9" tall baffle, range for skimmer water depth runs 8 - 10" average. Depending on flow rate, 1" (1.5" or more for higher flow rates) spacing, another 9" baffle--1" off the floor, 1" space, another 9" baffle. if you go strictly inline, the next baffle on the far side of the "fuge" section: 8" tall, and you are done.

Running the "fuge" at the end of the sump, rather than the middle, has some advantages: More volume for the "fuge," with a 13" baffle height, and return section: 8" water level as opposed to 7" water level in return section. Feed such a "fuge" with a branch in the return line. Don't put a valve in or split your drain line.

Things to consider: A "fuge" volume of less than 10% of the system volume (not tank volume) is not of much value, and the return section needs enough water volume to run several days without burning the pump out due to evaporation loss, when your ATO fails--a passive fail-safe. (average loss is 2 - 2.5 gallons per day.) The final consideration: Enough extra volume in the sump, to contain all power out drain down from the system--another passive fail-safe. Sumps should only run around half full.

[Katiehayes]

As I stated before I would like to have the skimmer first fuge second and return last
And sometimes things aren't so simple when you are just building the first one and there are so many opinions how would you build it

[Katiehayes]

So what about the plumbing is this going to be complicated by having the return in the middle
Also what about the pods that fish will feed on, does that matter as to where I put the fuge

[uncleof6]

*** grrr photobucket is getting to be a pain. Double post.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Katiehayes

So what about the plumbing is this going to be complicated by having the return in the middle
Also what about the pods that fish will feed on, does that matter as to where I put the fuge

Drains drop into your skimmer section, that is rather straightforward. With a center return section, you will need a tee before the return (flow control) valve, and a valve on the branch to the "fuge." Gate valves would be preferable for this application. A cheap ball valve can be used below the tee, for on/off function to facilitate pump maintenance.

This is more sump than you would be using, but this is the idea:


Folks are getting away from the center "fuge"design, and going to this design. That is not to say, that the center "fuge" design, does not work as intended.

[Katiehayes]

Ok we'll I might just give this a try thanks for doing the pictures I really appreciate it. Petco is having their $1 gallon sale so I will be getting the tank soon

[synofreak]

Just remember to have your skimmer decided BEFORE you build the sump. You need to have enough footprint for the skimmer, and also baffle height.

Also when siliconing baffles it helps to use a few cd cases to keep proper spacing while silicone dries.

My sump is Skimmer>Return Pump
Good luck, they are fairly easy to build...even the first time.

[synofreak]

Skimmer>Return

[greech]

Your skimmer section's baffle CAN be higher than the recommended water level for the skimmer you pick out. This will allow for more water volume in your system. All you will need to so is build a simple stand (PVC, eggcrate, etc.) for the skimmer so that is sits in the recommended height of water.

Just make sure you leave enough empty space above the highest baffle so that your sump can handle all the backflow from your return lines.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by greech

Your skimmer section's baffle CAN be higher than the recommended water level for the skimmer you pick out. This will allow for more water volume in your system. All you will need to so is build a simple stand (PVC, eggcrate, etc.) for the skimmer so that is sits in the recommended height of water.

Just make sure you leave enough empty space above the highest baffle so that your sump can handle all the backflow from your return lines.

There really is no point in doing that. The extra volume will be meaningless. Talking volume for stability, we are talking 25% of the DT volume increases, but generally, 50% actually makes a noticeable difference in terms of stability. A couple gallons is not going to make any difference at all--it will just make more work, to get your sump up and running, having to build a stand for the skimmer.

Functionally, where you actually need the volume is not in the skimmer section anyway, rather the return section. The "fuge" should be 10% of the system volume minimum, but the return section is more important.

[Katiehayes]

Why do you all recommend the return in the middle thanks for everyone's input

[jpacker1508]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Drains drop into your skimmer section, that is rather straightforward. With a center return section, you will need a tee before the return (flow control) valve, and a valve on the branch to the "fuge." Gate valves would be preferable for this application. A cheap ball valve can be used below the tee, for on/off function to facilitate pump maintenance.

This is more sump than you would be using, but this is the idea:


Folks are getting away from the center "fuge"design, and going to this design. That is not to say, that the center "fuge" design, does not work as intended.

Uncle I have a sump design similar to what you posted. But what I have done is split the water entering from my overflows to both sides so that I get dirty water entering my skimmer section and my fuge then they flow to the center return section. Has worked well for me for over five years now

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by jpacker1508

Uncle I have a sump design similar to what you posted. But what I have done is split the water entering from my overflows to both sides so that I get dirty water entering my skimmer section and my fuge then they flow to the center return section. Has worked well for me for over five years now

Generally this only turns the fuge into a garbage dump. Aside from that, despite your success, it is unwise to split drain lines. With "Durso" and similar modified standpipes, this messes with the physics of them, and greatly exacerbates the problems associated with ALL air assisted drain systems, unless it defies the laws of physics.

Also, putting valves in an air assisted drain system, generally increases the plug risk, and there is seldom a back up fail safe to prevent a flood. Valves are put in siphon lines to control the water level in the overflow, however, these systems have redundant emergency back up. Splitting a siphon line could very easily cause a starting issue, which with the redundant back up, would not cause a flood, however, you would have performance issues (reduced flow capacity.)

There is absolutely no advantage to feeding raw water to the fuge. The skimmer does not remove anything required by the fuge, and the skimmer does not remove all of what it does remove anyway. More often than not, it simply turns it into a detritus settling tank--NOT GOOD. This is based on a huge internet driven myth.

5 years of good luck can end in 5 seconds, and it only takes once--and then it is too late.

@ Katie: You would likely get lots of stories on this. "Generally" most recommend a lower flow through the "fuge", well if the "fuge" is inline with the main flow, that isn't going to happen. But on the other hand, how much flow you have through the "fuge" is immaterial to its function. You do, however, want the flow high enough to prevent detritus fallout.

Following that line of thinking, one would want the flow through the sump high enough to prevent detritus fallout as well. So there would be no reason to have a "lower" or "higher" flow through the "fuge."

I think the best answer to your question is you do have flow control, with a center return, that you don't have by having the "fuge" inline with the main flow of the system. The "fuge" is pump fed, because it is simply a bad idea to feed it from a drain line--as the drains are too critical a part of the system to mess with. On the end it is also possible to "special purpose" the "fuge" if the need or desire should arise. It can also be taken off line for a variety of reasons, without tearing it apart, or shutting down the whole system.

The other thing is you can have more volume in the "fuge" than you can have with the "fuge" in the center. When considering the 10% of system volume thing, this could be a decent advantage.

As Melev stated: There is no advantage to having the "fuge" in the middle, other than "everyone does it that way......."

You do not have to do it "my way." Many things work. Some things work better than others. Myself and a handful of others are simply trying to pass on (teach if you will) what we have learned over the years. (35 years for me.) We did not have the internet to tell us what was popular......just FAMA......

[Katiehayes]

Will the sicce 3.0 be strong enough for pumping back into the tank and fuge I will have a glass holes 700 overflow? I just want everything done right the first time thanks for the advice

[uncleof6]

Probably not. With some good return plumbing design, it would serve the DT well @ ~ 500 gph, using 1" pipe on the outlet. (This depends on the actual static lift + friction loss--average for an aquarium is ~6' total head loss, I used 5')

I would think that the Syncra 4.0 would probably be a better choice, but pump selection is the last part of plumbing the system, because until the piping is done, there is no way to tell what size pump you need. (to determine friction loss.)

[Katiehayes]

I think my plans have changed for my display tank I found one on cl with a stand I think it is about 100 gallons the dimensions are 48L 17w 32h they didn't know exact gallons so should I still go with the 40b or use my 55 that I have already for the sump

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Katiehayes

I think my plans have changed for my display tank I found one on cl with a stand I think it is about 100 gallons the dimensions are 48L 17w 32h they didn't know exact gallons so should I still go with the 40b or use my 55 that I have already for the sump

Well here is the thing: The 40 breeder will not fit under either the 55 gallon tank, or the 113 gallon. The 40 breeder is 18" wide. The 55 probably won't fit under the 113 gallon, either. They are both the same length. For a 48" tank, and assuming a plywood box stand, the longest sump you can fit in is 46.5", and 15.5" wide (under the 113.) I would keep looking, the 113 is probably a custom build, and if so, the quality would be highly questionable.

Additionally, both tanks are not a good foot print for a marine system display tank. They are both tall compared to wide. This makes for little sump room, and reduced gas exchange.

Shop for a tank, that is at least as wide as it is tall, if not wider. Tank sizes that end in a 5 are going to have lousy footprints...... personally, I would go with a 120 (48" x 24" x 24",) run the 40 breeder as a sump, and have a nice day. That is an excellent starter system. Be very careful purchasing tanks off of CL, those folks will sell you a leaker, or close to it--without even batting an eye. Or the tank has a severe case of tin etch haze that is reparable only by replacing the glass, or heavy machine polishing. Nothing worse than bringing home a "new to you tank," and having to rebuild it day 1.

[Katiehayes]

Well I already have the 55 up and running has been for over 2 years and it has a custom built in that has a huge area underneath so the space isn't a issue but the larger one i just hate to pass up as good of a deal as it is what about a 29 sump on the 113 gallon

[uncleof6]

It may be a good deal, price wise, however the darn thing is way to tall, compared to width. It is not going to breath well, and you will likely experience such problems as algae being prolific, as well as chronic low oxygen levels. Such tanks are for freshwater systems, not marine systems.

[SEA74]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Did it occur to you that you may be wanting something that is not a very good design?

What exactly are you wanting? Sump design is so simple, there are not even any classes around for it.

40 breeders make good sumps. Skimmer section ~ 9" tall baffle, range for skimmer water depth runs 8 - 10" average. Depending on flow rate, 1" (1.5" or more for higher flow rates) spacing, another 9" baffle--1" off the floor, 1" space, another 9" baffle. if you go strictly inline, the next baffle on the far side of the "fuge" section: 8" tall, and you are done.

Running the "fuge" at the end of the sump, rather than the middle, has some advantages: More volume for the "fuge," with a 13" baffle height, and return section: 8" water level as opposed to 7" water level in return section. Feed such a "fuge" with a branch in the return line. Don't put a valve in or split your drain line.

Things to consider: A "fuge" volume of less than 10% of the system volume (not tank volume) is not of much value, and the return section needs enough water volume to run several days without burning the pump out due to evaporation loss, when your ATO fails--a passive fail-safe. (average loss is 2 - 2.5 gallons per day.) The final consideration: Enough extra volume in the sump, to contain all power out drain down from the system--another passive fail-safe. Sumps should only run around half full.

Thanks for this! .. I know it was posted a while back .. but i've been trying to figure out if I needed a bubble trap on both sides of the return (middle of the sump return) ... and this made me take a step back and understand I was making it more complex than it needed to be...

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by SEA74

Thanks for this! .. I know it was posted a while back .. but i've been trying to figure out if I needed a bubble trap on both sides of the return (middle of the sump return) ... and this made me take a step back and understand I was making it more complex than it needed to be...

Many folks like to complicate things. It makes for more interesting post fodder....